Necessity of 105 level components? and some beginner questions

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by plutov, Jun 6, 2004.

  1. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    By what standard, exactly? What remotely useful thing do you have to say? Byrne summarized my definition of what makes any given drivetrain better than another, and yes, applied it to the Tiagra/105 debate -- essentially reiterating a portion of the position I had taken earlier.

    I understand your dislike of those ideas you consider myths, but disagree completely with the notion that your hooey assaults are even a smidge helpful.

    And I stick to my assesment of the Tiagra/105 comparison. Clearly you're intent on disagreeing -- but why, how, to what end, and with this level of obnoxiousness is a mystery.
     


  2. mjw_byrne

    mjw_byrne New Member

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    Hey boudreaux, somehow I get the impression you think something is BS. Please be so good as to tell us where the differences between Tiagra and 105 lie. If what I've said is "BS", how are they different? They differ in price, of course, and weight, and the minor technicality of the BB/crank being a slightly different design - those things are all undisputed, even by you, I daresay. Is there no other difference? No performance-related differences? Or perhaps there are, but I failed to highlight them.
     
  3. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    I'm going riding now; seriously -- friend's waiting. I'll check in with this friendly chat later (no promises). Byrne, take it easy.

    Boudreaux, see ya round.
     
  4. mjw_byrne

    mjw_byrne New Member

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    Ha ha, you've got the right idea there! But try not to be too depressed at all the money you wasted on your DA10-equipped bike, when Tiagra would have done just as well ;)
     
  5. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    I've already stated it,and it's not that Tiagra is more likely to throw a chain and all other BS. This thread smacks of the DA 'durability' one where you were in over your eyeballs with generalizations,and no basis.
     
  6. mjw_byrne

    mjw_byrne New Member

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    Right, I see - the differences you stated are weight, the different crank design and the slightly lower quality hubs. Why are you so set against the idea that there might be a difference in drivetrain efficiency or shifting performance or stuff like that? You said elsewhere that the performance depended only on how well the drivetrain was adjusted. Does this mean that the only difference between a Tiagra-equipped bike and a DA-10-equipped bike (same frame, wheels etc) is that the Tiagra-equipped bike has fewer gears and is heavier?

    And yes, this thread smacks heavily of our little discussion about durability. It involves me trying to be helpful and answer the question and you sitting on the sidelines trying to s**t-stir. There's nothing wrong with generalisations - if you think about it, almost all the statements you make are generalisations of some sort. Even the smallest discussions would become monstrously complicated and unmanageable if everyone demanded as much exactitude as you seem to think is necessary.
     
  7. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Now that's quite different than throwing chains and missing cogs and shifting when it ain't supposed to, isn't it?? Try a real blind test on perfectly tuned examples,and then report back.Till then it's just BS.
     
  8. mjw_byrne

    mjw_byrne New Member

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    Why is the onus on me to prove that one is superior to the other? How about this: I'm right till you prove me wrong. lokstah agrees with what I'm saying, and no-one else here has come forward and claimed that you've got it spot-on. Or, an even better resolution: how about everyone refrains from childish demands such as blind testing, and accepts that this is just a forum and not a forensic investigation?
     
  9. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    So you are both full of BS. I had hope for lokstah.
     
  10. fushman

    fushman New Member

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    enough, lets get back to some thing concrete, like aesthetics, tiagra looks like crap while 105 is the first shimano gruppo to have a nice finish on all compenents
     
  11. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    LOL....an intelligent life form.:D
     
  12. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    Oh good lord. I thought we'd have all made up by now. Yes, I'm back. Nice ride... I was thinking about good, fun, things.

    Well, in any case, I've calmed down. My last pair of shoes just died (the sole started peeling off from the heel forward), and I needed to test ride a new pair I'd just scored on Ebay -- found a pair of the new Shimano R215s in my size, and won them for about $100 USD (reg. $240). Not bad. Good news is, they even feel good, aside from making me look faster than I am. Just climbed a hill I hate climbing, and I hated it a touch less because my feet looked dipped in platinum.

    Ok boudreaux... because I feel like I sort of know you, I think I understand what your point is. Allow me the presumptuousness of putting myself in your mysterious head. Clearly, in the interest of preventing riders from pursuing and building upon ill-informed notions -- particularly those which favor basic marketing darlings and flashy, expensive fads -- you've made it a mission to stamp out anything on these forums which even resembles a careless endorsement of hype or bad conventional wisdom.

    Right? I can respect that. I think you go overboard from time to time and piss people off, but I understand the motivation. As such, it chapped your hide to see the suggestion here that Tiagra was a substandard groupset -- something you culled from the specific language tossed around. Preventing other visitors from coming away thinking that Tiagra regularly mis-shifts, looses its chain, and requires bending the pulley cage to get it to work, seemed like a worthy crusade. For the friggin' record, if I ever suggested that the above was the case (which I didn't), I recant it.

    Fine of you to tackle that notion, but really, this has become a word-game as much as anything else -- a byzantine cross-examination, and not a discussion about drivetrains. Have a little more respect for the newbies you claim to be thinking about -- assuming they're reading my posts, I promise, the situation ain't that bad. Compared to whatever package of words we're fighting over here, how many times did I state that Tiagra was a sufficient, solid group? I think I said it quite a few times.

    Sure -- tune drivetrains to precision in a lab and stage a blind test, the differences can diminish; how far they diminish depends on who tuned them, what two groups you're comparing, and how sensitive the tester is. But we don't live in labs. We certainly don't ride in them, and we don't have trained engineers tuning our drivetrains every day. Under ordinary conditions, like all of your friends here experience, these groups can feel distinguishable.

    That I've personally found Tiagra to be slightly clunkier and less precise than 105 isn't up for debate. For the record, I've personally found Tiagra to be clunkier than Ultegra as well. I've also personally found that 105 is clunkier than Dura Ace, but that hardly stops me from endorsing 105. It does not mean that I find 105 a chain-dropping, mis-firing mess. I like the damn group.

    Again, the varying degrees to which these groups compare against one another when held up to the infamous "reliable shifts" standard are relative, and perhaps subtle. In my opinion, they exist nonetheless. Maybe not in hype-supporting, hooey-rific fad-level glory, but they exist, in small, occasionally palpable degrees. So please, put the crusade on a temporary hiatus. Do it for the sake of dialogue, for Coppi's sake. If you've got reason to disagree, lay it down for the sake of those newbies you loose sleep over.

    And go for a tough ride before you type a reply. It seems to make you ramble on longer (witness above), but it's a more pleasant experience. Nighty night.
     
  13. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    Heh. True.
     
  14. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Now if you can get m-b to buy into the reality that it doesn't throw chains,miss cogs and shift when it's not supposed to, we can all have a group hug and goodnight kiss.:D
     
  15. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    Done. Let's go bike shopping together!
     
  16. RC2

    RC2 New Member

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    ...what surprises me is that there hasn't been much conversation here (any?) on whether or not 105 or ultegra say in tune longer than, say, tiagra. I would be happy to spend a few bucks on a groupo that stayed perfectly true over a significantly longer period of time. What's your experience here?
     
  17. Solanog

    Solanog New Member

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    My 105 (Shimano 600 rear derailleur)old group stays in tune for long time, I even stopped riding this bike for about half a year and I didn't even lube it before I went for a ride and it was in perfect working order. The only problem I have every now and then (like in my MB) is that when the cables get dirty below the bottom bracket they like get stuck and shifting becomes erratic. Same thing with the MB, shifting cables go the same way along the downtube. This could be fixed with a little maintenance which I don't do often and eventhough 105 works very well.
     
  18. boudreaux

    boudreaux New Member

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    Depends on too many variables. Easy enough to learn to turn an adjuster yourself. Otherwise ride a singlespeed
     
  19. Randybaker99

    Randybaker99 New Member

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    For what its worth, my Ultegra group gets a bit out of whack when I ride in the rain and/or the cables get a bit dirty. It tunes up really easily though (in seconds - in fact, it me takes longer to pull Lennard Zinn down from the bookshelf than to do the actual adjustments). I guess the bottom line is that you better learn how to make adjustments from time to time, no matter what components you own.
     
  20. lokstah

    lokstah New Member

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    That's definitely true. Some of you might even recall me moaning about the trouble I was having getting DA10 to run to my satisfaction. A finnicky JagWire cable adjuster on the downtube was making proper tension a hard thing to settle on. Out of sorts, it was as lousy as any junkyard group.
     
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