J
Jim Menegay
Guest
Tim Tyler <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:
> > Tim Tyler <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > > Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:
>
> > > > As a loose definition of the origin of life, I would prefer "the process by which
> > > > autopoeisis came into existence". Other people would prefer "the process by which
> > > > reproduction with heritable variation came into existence". [snip]
> > > It isn't clear how you can have an evolving system which isn't also characterised by
> > > autopoiesis.
> >
> > [snip] As I understand it, autopoeisis includes a self-maintaining and self- reconstruction
> > aspect that is quite distinct from reproduction. I am acting autopoeically when I replace 95%+
> > of my body's atoms over the course of a year, without changing my exterior form or internal
> > organization significantly. All modern biological life has this characteristic - even when it is
> > not reproducing. Naked genes - whether built from clay or RNA - do not (though perhaps a
> > different hypothetical genetic substance might be autopoeic).
>
> "Distinct from reproduction" doesn't seem to be part of the definitions I have seen.
>
> Consider, for example:
>
> ``Autopoiesis literally means "self-production" (from the Greek: auto for self- and poiesis for
> creation or production) and expresses a fundamental complementarity between structure and
> function. The term was originally introduced by Chilean biologists Francisco Varela and
> Humberto Maturana in the early 1970s. More precisely, the term refers to the dynamics of non-
> equilibrium structures; that is, organised states (sometimes also called dissipative
> structures) that remain stable for long periods of time despite matter and energy continually
> flowing through them. [...]''
>
> - http://www.wordiq.com/cgi-bin/knowledge/lookup.cgi?title=Autopoiesis
>
> It doesn't seem to say anything about /how/ stability is maintained.
I found the following definitions at a different WEB site:
Autopoiesis: The process whereby an organization produces itself. An autopoietic organization is an
autonomous and self-maintaining unity which contains component-producing processes. The components,
through their interaction, generate recursively the same network of processes which produced them.
An autopoietic system is operationally closed and structurally state determined with no apparent
inputs and outputs. A cell, an organism, and perhaps a corporation are examples of autopoietic
systems. See allopoiesis. (F. Varela) Literally, self-production. The property of systems whose
components
(1) participate recursively in the same network of productions that produced them, and (2) realize
the network of productions as a unity in the space in which the components exist (after
Varela). Autopoiesis is a process whereby a system produces its own organization and maintains
and constitutes itself in a space. E.g., a biological cell, a living organism and to some
extend a corporation and a society as a whole.
-------------
Allopoiesis: The process whereby an organization produces something other than the organization
itself. An assembly line is an example of an allopoietic system. See autopoiesis. (Francisco
Varela) The process of producing material entities other than those required for producing them.
Most industrial production processes are allopoietic: An assembly line may produce cars but not the
machines used in this form of production. Even reproduction in biology is allopoietic because the
offsprings are materially distinct from the parent organism and occupy different spaces.
Reproduction is not self-production. The primary value of the concept of allopoiesis is that it
contrasts with autopoiesis.
- http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASC/AUTOPOIESIS.html
I am surprised to learn that the word can be found on the WEB under both spellings - "Autopoiesis"
and "Autopoeisis". It is probable that the spelling I have been using until now is incorrect. Our
beloved moderator is correct - nobody studies Greek anymore. Maybe that is a good thing - if in the
future no one knows Greek, then no one will come up with ugly Greek neologisms for useful concepts
like this one.
> Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:
> > Tim Tyler <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > > Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:
>
> > > > As a loose definition of the origin of life, I would prefer "the process by which
> > > > autopoeisis came into existence". Other people would prefer "the process by which
> > > > reproduction with heritable variation came into existence". [snip]
> > > It isn't clear how you can have an evolving system which isn't also characterised by
> > > autopoiesis.
> >
> > [snip] As I understand it, autopoeisis includes a self-maintaining and self- reconstruction
> > aspect that is quite distinct from reproduction. I am acting autopoeically when I replace 95%+
> > of my body's atoms over the course of a year, without changing my exterior form or internal
> > organization significantly. All modern biological life has this characteristic - even when it is
> > not reproducing. Naked genes - whether built from clay or RNA - do not (though perhaps a
> > different hypothetical genetic substance might be autopoeic).
>
> "Distinct from reproduction" doesn't seem to be part of the definitions I have seen.
>
> Consider, for example:
>
> ``Autopoiesis literally means "self-production" (from the Greek: auto for self- and poiesis for
> creation or production) and expresses a fundamental complementarity between structure and
> function. The term was originally introduced by Chilean biologists Francisco Varela and
> Humberto Maturana in the early 1970s. More precisely, the term refers to the dynamics of non-
> equilibrium structures; that is, organised states (sometimes also called dissipative
> structures) that remain stable for long periods of time despite matter and energy continually
> flowing through them. [...]''
>
> - http://www.wordiq.com/cgi-bin/knowledge/lookup.cgi?title=Autopoiesis
>
> It doesn't seem to say anything about /how/ stability is maintained.
I found the following definitions at a different WEB site:
Autopoiesis: The process whereby an organization produces itself. An autopoietic organization is an
autonomous and self-maintaining unity which contains component-producing processes. The components,
through their interaction, generate recursively the same network of processes which produced them.
An autopoietic system is operationally closed and structurally state determined with no apparent
inputs and outputs. A cell, an organism, and perhaps a corporation are examples of autopoietic
systems. See allopoiesis. (F. Varela) Literally, self-production. The property of systems whose
components
(1) participate recursively in the same network of productions that produced them, and (2) realize
the network of productions as a unity in the space in which the components exist (after
Varela). Autopoiesis is a process whereby a system produces its own organization and maintains
and constitutes itself in a space. E.g., a biological cell, a living organism and to some
extend a corporation and a society as a whole.
-------------
Allopoiesis: The process whereby an organization produces something other than the organization
itself. An assembly line is an example of an allopoietic system. See autopoiesis. (Francisco
Varela) The process of producing material entities other than those required for producing them.
Most industrial production processes are allopoietic: An assembly line may produce cars but not the
machines used in this form of production. Even reproduction in biology is allopoietic because the
offsprings are materially distinct from the parent organism and occupy different spaces.
Reproduction is not self-production. The primary value of the concept of allopoiesis is that it
contrasts with autopoiesis.
- http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASC/AUTOPOIESIS.html
I am surprised to learn that the word can be found on the WEB under both spellings - "Autopoiesis"
and "Autopoeisis". It is probable that the spelling I have been using until now is incorrect. Our
beloved moderator is correct - nobody studies Greek anymore. Maybe that is a good thing - if in the
future no one knows Greek, then no one will come up with ugly Greek neologisms for useful concepts
like this one.