Nested Sets Of Causation



J

John Edser

Guest
phillip smith wrote:

> RO:- The reservations of the first poster seems to be about the accuracy of determination of
> allele effects. Epistasis will often reduce the rate of change of the allele frequency due to
> selection, and random events can
dramatically
> change allele frequencies in small populations. Couple them together and
they
> will likely increase the frequency where the less advantagous allele is
fixed
> by "accident" in a population, but it would still have to occur by accident
and
> against selection pressure.

PS:- The question is. Is the definition of evolution as changes in gene frequencies reasonable. I
have no question that the frequency of phenotypic traits can change under selection. This not the
same thing.

JE:- Yes, they "are not the same thing." Causation is the basis of reasoning within the sciences.
Deleting causation within the sciences is like deleting all musical instruments within music. At the
moment it remains unclear if a gene freq change is a cause of evolution or just an affect of another
cause. Four epistemologically different causations can exist here:

1) A gene freq change causes Evolution.

2) Evolution causes a gene freq change.

3) An unknown causes both.

4) No causation exists between them,
i.e. they are correlated but independent, events.

Although it may seem "obvious" that
1) is correct it cannot be taken as true unless at the very least, its ani-thesis 2) is eliminated.
Of course 1) and 2) cannot both be true because you end up with only a causative tautology.

I put it to sbe readers that 2) is correct. This is because selection causes evolution and evolution
by natural selection causes gene freq change. This argument forms a non reversible logical structure
consisting of two nodes (one way arrows):

gene freq change ---> evolution ---> natural selection

The above can be imagined as a Russian Doll set consisting of 3 dolls. The first and smallest doll
is "gene freq change" which is entirely a subset of "evolution" which respectively, remains entirely
a subset of "natural selection". Thus only natural selection is the largest doll in the set. This
means that natural selection is the major inductive causative supposition from which evolution and
respectively, gene freq changes are only deductions.

In the reverse order: gene freq changes limit what can evolve and what defined evolution limits what
natural selection can do.

The Neo Darwinists have reversed testable cause and affect within evolutionary theory because they
simply deleted cause and affect from their applied epistemology.

PS:- In small populations it seems that drift is a factor in gene frequencies so we can say
frequencies change but we don't know why.

JE:- Very exactly stated. Because drift is only a random process all we can say about it is "we
don't know why", period. Neo Darwinists want to make out they know more than they can know when they
invoke drift as causative to evolution. All Neo Darwinism can validly suppose is that drift is
assumed to cause random temporal variation because it make no difference to the testability of the
theory of evolution to may this hypothesis.

John Edser Independent Researcher

PO Box 277 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

[email protected]
 
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:40:25 +0000 (UTC),
John Edser <[email protected]> wrote:
> phillip smith wrote:

[snip]

> The question is. Is the definition of evolution as changes in gene frequencies reasonable. I
> have no question that the frequency of phenotypic traits can change under selection. This not
> the same thing.

We need a way to *define* evolution so that we know it when we see it and so that we can distinguish
evolution from other things that superficially resemble it.

Evolution is a phenomenon of populations and not of individuals so any *definition* has to address
populations. Evolution deals with changes in heritable characteristics (genes/alleles). Simple
changes in phenotype due to environment, for example, are not examples of evolution. (The classic
examples is increased height and health of Caucasians over the past 500 years.)

When a population evolves the genetic composition changes. Hence, the basic minimum definition of
evolution is a change in the frequency of alleles in a population over time. Nobody has ever come up
with a better definition that allows us to separate evolution from similar phenomena and to
recognize real evolution when we observe it.

> JE:- Yes, they "are not the same thing." Causation is the basis of reasoning within the sciences.
> Deleting causation within the sciences is like deleting all musical instruments within music. At
> the moment it remains unclear if a gene freq change is a cause of evolution or just an affect of
> another cause. Four epistemologically different causations can exist here:
>
> 1) A gene freq change causes Evolution.
>
> 2) Evolution causes a gene freq change.
>
> 3) An unknown causes both.
>
> 4) No causation exists between them,
> i.e. they are correlated but independent, events.

As usual, John gets confused by his own rhetoric. The *definition* of evolution says absolutely
nothing about cause, nor should it. We now know something about the cause of evolution (natural
selection, random genetic drift, etc..) and those explanations form the core of evolutionary theory.
It would be wrong and silly to *define* evolution in terms of one of its causes. We don't do this
for other phenomena in science (e.g. gravity, chemical reaction, earthquake, etc.) so why should we
do it with the word "evolution."

Larry Moran
 
> JE:-
> Yes, they "are not the same thing."
> Causation is the basis of reasoning
> within the sciences. Deleting causation
> within the sciences is like deleting all
> musical instruments within music. At the
> moment it remains unclear if a gene freq
> change is a cause of evolution or just an
> affect of another cause. Four epistemologically
> different causations can exist here:
>
> 1) A gene freq change causes Evolution.
>
> 2) Evolution causes a gene freq change.
>
> 3) An unknown causes both.
>
> 4) No causation exists between them,
> i.e. they are correlated but independent, events.

LM:- As usual, John gets confused by his own rhetoric. The *definition* of evolution says absolutely
nothing about cause, nor should it.

JE:- Typically, LM epistemologically beheads the biological sciences and then tries to appear as if
butter would not melt in his mouth. The _enormity_ of the error that LM is making should not escape
any sbe reader's attention. As far as LM is concerned no difference can exist between the opposing
causative suppositions that the sun is stationary and earth moves OR the earth is stationary and the
sun moves. For LM they are the same view. Contesting propositions of causation are what EVERY
TESTABLE theory of science is about.

Darwinian theory simply states that evolution is CAUSED by natural selection. It was never suggested
that natural selection was caused by evolution.

LM is post modern in his epistemology. Thus he deletes everything that matters allowing his views to
move their goal posts to anywhere he wishes. NOW LM can never be wrong. What LM doesn't realise is,
this also means LM cannot ever be right.

The reason why LM cannot understand why Hamilton's rule is arbitrary is because _everything_ in LM's
world is arbitrary, non testable and forever relative to yet another, hopeless relative. LM should
learn that zero random process can be validly suggested to cause anything, within the sciences. Of
course, LM is not proposing that drift "causes" evolution because he has deleted that word cause
from his lexicon; problem solved.. or was it...

Best Wishes,

John Edser Independent Researcher

PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

[email protected]



We now know something about the cause of evolution (natural selection, random genetic drift, etc..)
and those explanations form the core of evolutionary theory. It would be wrong and silly to *define*
evolution in terms of one of its causes. We don't do this for other phenomena in science (e.g.
gravity, chemical reaction, earthquake, etc.) so why should we do it with the word "evolution."

Larry Moran
 
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:36:23 +0000 (UTC),
John Edser <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Moran wrote:

[snip]

> As usual, John gets confused by his own rhetoric. The *definition* of evolution says absolutely
> nothing about cause, nor should it.
>
> JE:- Typically, LM epistemologically beheads the biological sciences and then tries to appear as
> if butter would not melt in his mouth. The _enormity_ of the error that LM is making should not
> escape any sbe reader's attention. As far as LM is concerned no difference can exist between the
> opposing causative suppositions that the sun is stationary and earth moves OR the earth is
> stationary and the sun moves. For LM they are the same view. Contesting propositions of causation
> are what EVERY TESTABLE theory of science is about.

John, John, John .....

Try and keep up. Do you understand the difference between a *definition* and a *theory*?

Evolutionary theory is all about possible causes of evolution. Evolution, the definition, defines
what evolution is.

This isn't really that difficult. Try reading an introductory textbook instead of trying to reinvent
the English language.

Larry Moran
 
> JE:- Typically, LM epistemologically beheads the biological sciences and then tries to appear as
> if butter would not melt in his mouth. The _enormity_ of the error that LM is making should not
> escape any sbe reader's attention. As far as LM is concerned no difference can exist between the
> opposing causative suppositions that the sun is stationary and earth moves OR the earth is
> stationary and the sun moves. For LM they are the same view. Contesting propositions of causation
> are what EVERY TESTABLE theory of science is about.

LM:- John, John, John ..... Try and keep up. Do you understand the difference between a *definition*
and a *theory*?

JE:- Yes, do you?

LN:- Evolutionary theory is all about possible causes of evolution.

JE:- Incorrect. Evolutionary theory "is all about" providing ideas, ON THE TABLE, of TESTABLE
evolutionary processes where cause and affect are defined in each case. The view that fairies cause
evolution is not a scientific process, because fairies are not a testable supposition. Any view that
reverses cause and affect anytime it wishes to do so, simply because it denies causation even exists
within a scientific theory, is just childish in the extreme.

Hamilton's rule, which entirely reverses cause and affect (c to -c) by incorporating thesis and anti
thesis within just the _one_ rule, is a classic example. To make Hamilton's rule a testable view two
rules must be supposed to exist:-

1) rb>c only producing OFA

2) rb>-c only producing OFM

Where one rule must refute in favour of the other.

Which one refutes is demonstrated when cmax is appended to the rule:

rb>K-c

where K = cmax

LO:- Evolution, the definition, defines what evolution is.

JE:- Dear oh dear.. Evolution, the definition, can only define what evolution can be tested to be.
Without a testable theory of evolution, any definition of what somebody thinks they understand
evolution to be, is scientifically _empty_. LM thinks that just a subjective definition can produce
meaning. Defining an affliction as "the gripe" does not necessarily mean that somebody understands
what they are talking about even if the defined term sounds impressive. Calling random temporal gene
freq. change "evolution" reduces evolution to the epistemological equivalent of "the gripe".

______________________________________
Nested sets of fitness are the next stage in the sets of fitness saga.
______________________________________

LP:- This isn't really that difficult. Try reading an introductory textbook instead of trying to
reinvent the English language.

JE:- Why not the Koran or the Bible?

Try thinking for yourself, for a really refreshing change...

Best Wishes,

John Edser Independent Researcher

PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

[email protected]
 
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:35:41 +0000 (UTC),
John Edser <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry Moran wrote:
>>John Edser wrote:

>>> Typically, LM epistemologically beheads the biological sciences and then tries to appear as if
>>> butter would not melt in his mouth. The _enormity_ of the error that LM is making should not
>>> escape any sbe reader's attention. As far as LM is concerned no difference can exist between the
>>> opposing causative suppositions that the sun is stationary and earth moves OR the earth is
>>> stationary and the sun moves. For LM they are the same view. Contesting propositions of
>>> causation are what EVERY TESTABLE theory of science
> >> is about.
>
>> John, John, John ..... Try and keep up. Do you understand the difference between a *definition*
>> and a *theory*?
>
> Yes, do you?

I do. You don't. Goodbye.

Larry Moran
 
>>> Typically, LM epistemologically beheads the biological sciences and then tries to appear as if
>>> butter would not melt in his mouth. The _enormity_ of the error that LM is making should not
>>> escape any sbe reader's attention. As far as LM is concerned no difference can exist between the
>>> opposing causative suppositions that the sun is stationary and earth moves OR the earth is
>>> stationary and the sun moves. For LM they are the same view. Contesting propositions of
>>> causation are what EVERY TESTABLE theory of science
> >> is about.

>> John, John, John ..... Try and keep up. Do you understand the difference between a *definition*
>> and a *theory*?

> Yes, do you?

LM:- I do. You don't. Goodbye.

JE:- That is what I call a well reasoned argument that leads any rational reader to a logically
sound set of unbiased conclusions that can be tested against nature in a rigorous way, to sort out
the better view.

_________________________________
A definition of evolution must invoke a testable theory of evolution to mean anything within the
sciences. Different theories of evolution must define evolution _differently_. It is a total
misconception to suppose that different theories compete to fulfil the _same_ definition.
_________________________________

Many Thanks,

John Edser Independent Researcher

PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

[email protected]
 
"John Edser" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

JM:- For epistemology junkies, this has been an interesting dialog between John Edser and Larry
Moran (initiated by Phillip Smith). I have reconstructed the arguments below by clipping from
several posts. I've done some rearranging, but hopably I have not introduced any distortions.

Here is the dialog:

PS:- The question is: Is the definition of evolution as changes in gene frequencies reasonable? I
have no question that the frequency of phenotypic traits can change under selection. This not the
same thing.

JE:- Yes, they "are not the same thing." Causation is the basis of reasoning within the sciences.
Deleting causation within the sciences is like deleting all musical instruments within music. At the
moment it remains unclear if a gene freq change is a cause of evolution or just an affect of another
cause. Four epistemologically different causations can exist here:

1) A gene freq change causes Evolution.

2) Evolution causes a gene freq change.

3) An unknown causes both.

4) No causation exists between them,
i.e. they are correlated but independent, events.

[snip]

if:= We need a way to *define* evolution so that we know it when we see it and so that we can
distinguish evolution from other things that superficially resemble it.

As usual, John gets confused by his own rhetoric. The *definition* of evolution says absolutely
nothing about cause, nor should it. We now know something about the cause of evolution (natural
selection, random genetic drift, etc..) and those explanations form the core of evolutionary theory.
It would be wrong and silly to *define* evolution in terms of one of its causes. We don't do this
for other phenomena in science (e.g. gravity, chemical reaction, earthquake, etc.) so why should we
do it with the word "evolution."

JE:- Typically, LM epistemologically beheads the biological sciences ...[snip] Contesting
propositions of causation are what EVERY TESTABLE theory of science is about.

Darwinian theory simply states that evolution is CAUSED by natural selection. It was never suggested
that natural selection was caused by evolution.

LM-: John, John, John .....

Evolutionary theory is all about possible causes of evolution. Evolution, the definition, defines
what evolution is.

This isn't really that difficult. Try reading an introductory textbook instead of trying to reinvent
the English language.

Try and keep up. Do you understand the difference between a *definition* and a *theory*?

JE:- Yes, do you?

ig:- I do. You don't. Goodbye.

JE:- That is what I call a well reasoned argument that leads any rational reader to a logically
sound set of unbiased conclusions that can be tested against nature in a rigorous way, to sort out
the better view.

_________________________________
A definition of evolution must invoke a testable theory of evolution to mean anything within the
sciences. Different theories of evolution must define evolution _differently_. It is a total
misconception to suppose that different theories compete to fulfil the _same_ definition.
_________________________________

END clipped dialog.

My immediate reaction was that Moran was obviously right and Edser was obviously wrong. So I started
out to write a note saying this. Have you ever had one of those experiences where you set out to
prove something, but then you think of a potential counter-argument you have to crush, and that
leads to more imagined counter-arguments, so that eventually you end up believing what you set out
to disprove? Well, that didn't exactly happen here. Instead, I reject both thesis and antithesis.
Hegel fans should know what is coming next. It all depends on your definition of "definition"...

There are three entities to consider:
1. The loose definition of the phenomenon.
2. The precise definition of the phenomenon.
3. The causal explanation of the phenomenon.

Entity #1 - the loose definition - makes no reference to causality. On the assumption that we expect
to have competing theories, it CAN'T refer to causality - it is the stadium within which the
theories compete - it can't be biased.

Entity #2 and Entity #3 - the precise definition of the phenomenon and the causal explanation,
together constitute the THEORY. Why do you need theory before you can produce a precise definition?
Because the precise definition has to make reference to observations, and observations are "theory
laden". Also, because the kinds of observations that are required will depend on the causal
structure.

So Larry is right that the loose definition of the phenomenon is independent of (and logically
prior to) the theory. But John is right that the precise definition of the phenomenon is a creature
of the theory.

I encourage doubters to produce a list of phenomena and check this conceptual framework against
their list. My list included the origin of life, the origin of the moon, human monogamy,
photosynthesis, and others. In each case, I notice that the competing theories (that I am aware
of) agree on a loose definition of the phenomenon, but introduce more or less subtle differences
in their precise definitions. Particularly interesting to Einstein fans is one of Larry's examples
- gravity.

Neither Larry nor John should interpret this as an attempt to mediate. I recommend against an
attempted reconciliation at this time. Separation (with a restraining order) is probably a
good idea. ;-)
 
_________________________________
A definition of evolution must invoke a testable theory of evolution to mean anything within the
sciences. Different theories of evolution must define evolution _differently_. It is a total
misconception to suppose that different theories compete to fulfil the _same_ definition.
_________________________________

JM:- There are three entities to consider:
1. The loose definition of the phenomenon.
2. The precise definition of the phenomenon.
3. The causal explanation of the phenomenon.

Entity #1 - the loose definition - makes no reference to causality. On the assumption that we expect
to have competing theories, it CAN'T refer to causality - it is the stadium within which the
theories compete - it can't be biased.

Entity #2 and Entity #3 - the precise definition of the phenomenon and the causal explanation,
together constitute the THEORY. Why do you need theory before you can produce a precise definition?
Because the precise definition has to make reference to observations, and observations are "theory
laden". Also, because the kinds of observations that are required will depend on the causal
structure.

So Larry is right that the loose definition of the phenomenon is independent of (and logically
prior to) the theory. But John is right that the precise definition of the phenomenon is a creature
of the theory.

JE:- Science cannot refer to just "the loose definition" That is all. This was proven by Darwin. He
defined evolution as the transmutation of species because the loose definition of evolution was one
_species_ being changed into another. This contested species being created and remaining separate.
In Both cases species remains the focus. As it turned out, the species concept WAS NOT the focus of
Darwin's theory but the concept of one evolving population, was. Darwin refuted the fixed species
concept and replaced it with an evolving population concept. Thus the loose definition of evolution
did _not_ represent Darwin's testable theory of evolution. The loose definition of evolution was
different to, and did not represent, Darwin's view.

Today evolution is defined as "any gene freq. change in a deme". The word "any" just means that this
definition cannot refer to a _testable_ supposition because it allows random gene freq. changes to
be defined as "evolution". If EVERY gene change is valid "evolution" then evolution, like creation,
cannot be tested to refutation. Unless Neo Darwinian's change this definition to "any NON RANDOM
gene freq. change in a deme" they have destroyed the theory of evolution as a scientific view. They
cannot hide behind a spurious "loose definition" as a justification for doing so.

>snip<

Best Wishes,

John Edser Independent Researcher

PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

[email protected]
 
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:34:46 +0000 (UTC), J
im Menegay <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

> My immediate reaction was that Moran was obviously right and Edser was obviously wrong. So I
> started out to write a note saying this. Have you ever had one of those experiences where you set
> out to prove something, but then you think of a potential counter-argument you have to crush, and
> that leads to more imagined counter-arguments, so that eventually you end up believing what you
> set out to disprove? Well, that didn't exactly happen here. Instead, I reject both thesis and
> antithesis. Hegel fans should know what is coming next. It all depends on your definition of
> "definition"...
>
> There are three entities to consider:
> 1. The loose definition of the phenomenon.
> 2. The precise definition of the phenomenon.
> 3. The causal explanation of the phenomenon.
>
> Entity #1 - the loose definition - makes no reference to causality. On the assumption that we
> expect to have competing theories, it CAN'T refer to causality - it is the stadium within which
> the theories compete - it can't be biased.
>
> Entity #2 and Entity #3 - the precise definition of the phenomenon and the causal explanation,
> together constitute the THEORY. Why do you need theory before you can produce a precise
> definition? Because the precise definition has to make reference to observations, and observations
> are "theory laden". Also, because the kinds of observations that are required will depend on the
> causal structure.
>
> So Larry is right that the loose definition of the phenomenon is independent of (and logically
> prior to) the theory. But John is right that the precise definition of the phenomenon is a
> creature of the theory.

Please give me a precise definition of evolution that works and is a "creature of theory." Please
explain why your "precise" definitions isn't mentioned in the textbooks on evolutionary biology. I'm
sure you must have such a "precise" definition in mind because if you don't your posting doesn't
make sense. It would be a great help to me if someone could come up with an example definition
instead of making vague accusations against the standard one. (I'm expecting a comparision between
your precise definition of evolution and the "loose" one that evolutionary biologists use. Which one
is better, in your opinion, and why?)

> I encourage doubters to produce a list of phenomena and check this conceptual framework against
> their list. My list included the origin of life, the origin of the moon, human monogamy,
> photosynthesis, and others. In each case, I notice that the competing theories (that I am aware
> of) agree on a loose definition of the phenomenon, but introduce more or less subtle differences
> in their precise definitions. Particularly interesting to Einstein fans is one of Larry's examples
> - gravity.

I don't understand these sentences. Could you elaborate? Are you referring to *definitions* of "the
origin of life" etc. I would *define* "the origin of life" as "the point in time when the first life
began." Do you have something else in mind?

What about "gravity"? The word is normally *defined* as something like "the attractive force between
massive bodies that is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the
square of their separation." This doesn't look to me like a definition that's a creature of theory.
What did you mean?

Larry Moran
 
"John Edser" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Today evolution is defined as "any gene freq. change in a deme". The word "any" just means that
> this definition cannot refer to a _testable_ supposition because it allows random gene freq.
> changes to be defined as "evolution". If EVERY gene change is valid "evolution" then evolution,
> like creation, cannot be tested to refutation. Unless Neo Darwinian's change this definition to
> "any NON RANDOM gene freq. change in a deme" they have destroyed the theory of evolution as a
> scientific view. They cannot hide behind a spurious "loose definition" as a justification for
> doing so.
>
That's curious, John. Here I thought Kimura was the scientist who had done more to revive the theory
of evolution as a scientific view than anyone since Fisher. He broke the back of extreme
adaptationism - which was hopelessly at odds with newly emerging facts. Furthermore, he provided the
conceptual basis for molecular taxonomy.
 
[email protected] (Larry Moran) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 23:34:46 +0000 (UTC), Jim Menegay [email protected]> wrote:
> > PS:- The question is: Is the definition of evolution as changes in gene frequencies reasonable?
> > [snip] JM:- There are three entities to consider:
> > 1. The loose definition of the phenomenon.
> > 2. The precise definition of the phenomenon.
> > 3. The causal explanation of the phenomenon.
> >
> > Entity #1 - the loose definition - makes no reference to causality. On the assumption that we
> > expect to have competing theories, it CAN'T refer to causality - it is the stadium within which
> > the theories compete - it can't be biased.
> >
> > Entity #2 and Entity #3 - the precise definition of the phenomenon and the causal explanation,
> > together constitute the THEORY. Why do you need theory before you can produce a precise
> > definition? Because the precise definition has to make reference to observations, and
> > observations are "theory laden". Also, because the kinds of observations that are required will
> > depend on the causal structure.
> >
> > So Larry is right that the loose definition of the phenomenon is independent of (and logically
> > prior to) the theory. But John is right that the precise definition of the phenomenon is a
> > creature of the theory.
>
> Please give me a precise definition of evolution that works and is a "creature of theory."

"Evolution is change in gene frequencies caused by differential survival and reproduction of
organisms." This definition is a creature of the neo-Darwinist theory (Fisher, Wright, et al.) It
certainly wasn't Darwin's precise definition - he had never heard of genes. His definition involved
things like speciation and adaptation, even though his causal ideas were not that different from
Fisher's. People between Darwin and Fischer (Bateson, for example) also talked about evolution
without necessarily talking about changes in gene frequencies.

Since Kimura and Hamilton, we have better precise definitions that work even better. That is because
we have better theories. Of course, if you prefer to think of precise theories as not containing any
reference to causation, then Kimura and Hamilton don't change Fisher's precise definition, in your
view. But you have to admit that the definition of evolution HAS changed since Darwin. And, for that
matter, the definition of "gene" has changed since Fisher.

> Please explain why your "precise" definitions isn't mentioned in the textbooks on evolutionary
> biology.

Clearly, it IS mentioned in textbooks.

> I'm sure you must have such a "precise" definition in mind because if you don't your posting
> doesn't make sense. It would be a great help to me if someone could come up with an example
> definition instead of making vague accusations against the standard one. (I'm expecting a
> comparision between your precise definition of evolution and the "loose" one that evolutionary
> biologists use. Which one is better, in your opinion, and why?)

The precise definition is best for explaining, testing, and understanding the theory. The loose
definition is best for expanding, improving, and overthrowing the theory.

Personally, I am disappointed that the modern precise definitions of evolution don't explicitly
mention speciation.

>
> > I encourage doubters to produce a list of phenomena and check this conceptual framework against
> > their list. My list included the origin of life, the origin of the moon, human monogamy,
> > photosynthesis, and others. In each case, I notice that the competing theories (that I am aware
> > of) agree on a loose definition of the phenomenon, but introduce more or less subtle differences
> > in their precise definitions. Particularly interesting to Einstein fans is one of Larry's
> > examples - gravity.
>
> I don't understand these sentences. Could you elaborate? Are you referring to *definitions* of
> "the origin of life" etc. I would *define* "the origin of life" as "the point in time when the
> first life began." Do you have something else in mind?

I would change your loose definition to "the process by which the first life began" for starters.
The process is what people are interested in. But then someone is going to ask for a definition of
"life". And people like Francis Crick are going to foul things up by offering theories like
"Directed Panspermia". Should we ask for the origin of life on Earth? People like Cairns-Smith are
going to come up with theories of organisms built from clay that are ancestral to modern organisms
only with some stretching of concepts. Every theory forces some revamping of any attempted precise
definition.

You really never understand exactly what it is you are trying to explain until you explain it!
Thereby, you produce a precise definition. But even before you succeed, you had a goal in mind for
what you were going to explain - that vague goal is the loose definition.

>
> What about "gravity"? The word is normally *defined* as something like "the attractive force
> between massive bodies that is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely
> proportional to the square of their separation." This doesn't look to me like a definition that's
> a creature of theory. What did you mean?

Actually you are giving Newton's precise definition of *gravitation*, not of gravity. Gravity is the
force here on earth that makes apples fall and it was known long before Newton. Galileo provided the
first quantitative theory of gravity. Newton reduced gravity to a special case of a new theory -
gravitation. Einstein showed that Newton's gravitation, along with the laws of conservation of
momentum and energy, are only approximations to a more general theory - General Relativity. The
loose definition of gravity as a tendency of things to seek the center of the earth is still valid,
but the precise definition changes with each new theory. Even if you leave out Einstein, gravity now
includes a mix of the centripetal force due to gravitation, the centrifugal force due to the earth's
rotation, and small changes in the shape of the earth caused by lunar and solar tides.

Incidentally, Newton had a loose definition of gravitation before he had a precise one. He knew
there was an attractive force from Copernicus, but it took a careful analysis of Kepler's laws to
determine that it must be an inverse square force.
 
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:03:10 +0000 (UTC),
Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (Larry Moran) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...

[snip]

>> Please give me a precise definition of evolution that works and is a "creature of theory."
>
> "Evolution is change in gene frequencies caused by differential survival and reproduction of
> organisms." This definition is a creature of the neo-Darwinist theory (Fisher, Wright, et al.) It
> certainly wasn't Darwin's precise definition - he had never heard of genes. His definition
> involved things like speciation and adaptation, even though his causal ideas were not that
> different from Fisher's. People between Darwin and Fischer (Bateson, for example) also talked
> about evolution without necessarily talking about changes in gene frequencies.

Thank-you very much for offering a concrete example that we can examine. The definition of evolution
that I prefer is the one in the article that I wrote for the Talk.Origins Archive. I don't claim
that this definition is original. In that article I've tried to summarize the consensus among
evolutionary biologists.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

"Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many
generations."

There are many variations of this definition. Some of them are mentioned in the article. The most
common variant refers to changes in the frequency of alleles in a population.

Keep in mind that this is a minimal definition of evolution and doesn't address the birth and
extinction of populations. It is, admittedly, a creature of prior knowledge in that it assumes an
understanding of populations of organisms and of heredity.

What are the possible causes of these changes that would form part of evolutionary theory? One of
them is a Lamarckian form of evolution where the heritable characteristics of a population changed
within an individual in response to the environment. In theory, we could imagine that there would be
no differential survival of organisms in this this type of evolution (i.e. every individual gave
rise to one and only one descendant). The heritable characteristics of the population would change
over time and the population would evolve.

We know that this isn't the way that evolution occurs but it isn't ruled out by the definition of
evolution. That's the way it should be.

What are some other possible causes of changes in heritable characteristics? One of them is
mutation. New alleles (mutations) arise in a population at measurable frequency. This is an
important part of evolutionary theory and it is consistent with the definition of evolution since
the definition doesn't specify causes. Your definition does specify a cause. It says ...

"Evolution is change in gene frequencies caused by differential survival and reproduction of
organisms."

Is it your intention to eliminate mutation and possible Lamarckian explanations by defining them out
of existence? Why do you want to do this?

I realize that we're quibbling over details. Perhaps it would be best to think of your proposed
definition as a simple variant of what most of us agree is the standard definition. I really don't
see that it's profoundly different in spite of the fact that I think it's a bit too restrictive.

> Since Kimura and Hamilton, we have better precise definitions that work even better. That is
> because we have better theories. Of course, if you prefer to think of precise theories as not
> containing any reference to causation, then Kimura and Hamilton don't change Fisher's precise
> definition, in your view. But you have to admit that the definition of evolution HAS changed since
> Darwin. And, for that matter, the definition of "gene" has changed since Fisher.

I don't see that Kimura and Hamilton had any effect on the definition of evolution. I also don't see
any significant different between the definition that I prefer and what Darwin thought of as the
minimal definition of evolution. Darwin didn't know as much as we know about genes and how they work
but he did know about heritable characteristics and why they were important in evolution. In fact,
he proposed a theory of genes.

>> Please explain why your "precise" definitions isn't mentioned in the textbooks on evolutionary
>> biology.
>
> Clearly, it IS mentioned in textbooks.

Okay. Let's assume that your proposed definition is mentioned in textbooks. Why is it more "precise"
than the one I prefer? Is it simply because you use the word "genes" instead of "alleles" or
"heritable"? Or, is it because you specify a cause, a cause which seems pretty nebulous to me.

>> I'm sure you must have such a "precise" definition in mind because if you don't your posting
>> doesn't make sense. It would be a great help to me if someone could come up with an example
>> definition instead of making vague accusations against the standard one. (I'm expecting a
>> comparision between your precise definition of evolution and the "loose" one that evolutionary
>> biologists use. Which one is better, in your opinion, and why?)
>
> The precise definition is best for explaining, testing, and understanding the theory. The loose
> definition is best for expanding, improving, and overthrowing the theory.

Evolutionary theory is supposed to explain the causes of evolution. In order to do this we have to
have a common understanding of what evolution is. That's the purpose of a definition. There may be
many possible causes of evolution. Some of them will be right and some of them will be wrong. It
seems to me that you are advocating that we change the definition of evolution according to the best
available evolutionary theory of the day. If we had done this in the past then the definition of
evolution might include a cause such as natural selection and that would be extremely self-serving
and wrong. It would restrict evolution to only those causes that most people accepted in any given
year and eliminate by fiat all competing causal theories.

There are some people who would like to do this. They would like to "define" evolution as changes
caused by natural selection and eliminate random genetic drift as completely irrelevant to
evolution. Some of these same people want to rule out neutral changes. They don't think they
represent real evolution. In my opinion this is a serious error.

> Personally, I am disappointed that the modern precise definitions of evolution don't explicitly
> mention speciation.

This is a problem. If we want to cover all levels of evolution then we should also deal with the
birth and death of populations. That's why I emphasize that the definition is a "minimal" definition
designed to distinguish between processes that resemble evolution at the population level and
process that really count as evolution.

>> > I encourage doubters to produce a list of phenomena and check this conceptual framework against
>> > their list. My list included the origin of life, the origin of the moon, human monogamy,
>> > photosynthesis, and others. In each case, I notice that the competing theories (that I am aware
>> > of) agree on a loose definition of the phenomenon, but introduce more or less subtle
>> > differences in their precise definitions. Particularly interesting to Einstein fans is one of
>> > Larry's examples - gravity.
>>
>> I don't understand these sentences. Could you elaborate? Are you referring to *definitions* of
>> "the origin of life" etc. I would *define* "the origin of life" as "the point in time when the
>> first life began." Do you have something else in mind?
>
> I would change your loose definition to "the process by which the first life began" for starters.
> The process is what people are interested in. But then someone is going to ask for a definition of
> "life". And people like Francis Crick are going to foul things up by offering theories like
> "Directed Panspermia". Should we ask for the origin of life on Earth? People like Cairns-Smith are
> going to come up with theories of organisms built from clay that are ancestral to modern organisms
> only with some stretching of concepts. Every theory forces some revamping of any attempted precise
> definition.

Please offer a definition that illustrates the problem and how you would solve it.

> You really never understand exactly what it is you are trying to explain until you explain it!
> Thereby, you produce a precise definition. But even before you succeed, you had a goal in mind for
> what you were going to explain - that vague goal is the loose definition.

Hmmmm ... I really don't see your point. The distinction between what you call a "loose" definition
of evolution and a "precise" definition of evolution is very close to nitpicking. Nitpicking can be
fun but there's a risk that we miss the main point.

>> What about "gravity"? The word is normally *defined* as something like "the attractive force
>> between massive bodies that is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely
>> proportional to the square of their separation." This doesn't look to me like a definition that's
>> a creature of theory. What did you mean?
>
> Actually you are giving Newton's precise definition of *gravitation*, not of gravity. Gravity is
> the force here on earth that makes apples fall and it was known long before Newton.

I think this discussion is getting way too semantic for my liking.

> Galileo provided the first quantitative theory of gravity. Newton reduced gravity to a special
> case of a new theory - gravitation. Einstein showed that Newton's gravitation, along with the laws
> of conservation of momentum and energy, are only approximations to a more general theory - General
> Relativity. The loose definition of gravity as a tendency of things to seek the center of the
> earth is still valid, but the precise definition changes with each new theory. Even if you leave
> out Einstein, gravity now includes a mix of the centripetal force due to gravitation, the
> centrifugal force due to the earth's rotation, and small changes in the shape of the earth caused
> by lunar and solar tides.
>
> Incidentally, Newton had a loose definition of gravitation before he had a precise one. He knew
> there was an attractive force from Copernicus, but it took a careful analysis of Kepler's laws to
> determine that it must be an inverse square force.

Please give me your preferred *definition* of gravity so I can try and see what you're talking
about. It seems to me that you are confused about the difference between a definition of gravity and
the cause (explanation) of gravity.

Larry Moran
 
> JE:- Today evolution is defined as "any gene freq. change in a deme". The word "any" just means
> that this definition cannot refer to a _testable_ supposition because it allows random gene freq.
> changes to be defined as "evolution". If EVERY gene change is valid "evolution" then evolution,
> like creation, cannot be tested to refutation. Unless Neo Darwinian's change this definition to
> "any NON RANDOM gene freq. change in a deme" they have destroyed the theory of evolution as a
> scientific view. They cannot hide behind a spurious "loose definition" as a justification for
> doing so.

JM:- That's curious, John. Here I thought Kimura was the scientist who had done more to revive the
theory of evolution as a scientific view than anyone since Fisher. He broke the back of extreme
adaptationism - which was hopelessly at odds with newly emerging facts.

JE:- No. So called extreme adaptationism is NOT hopelessly at odds with newly emerging facts, if and
only if, such hypothesis of adaptation are TESTABLE. Like Fisher, Kimura has misused non testable
models within synthetic reasoning. Models are only correctly used to provide help with analysis of a
synthesis. They cannot be used as synthesis in their own right and cannot contest the synthesis they
were simplified from. The view that drift is evolution has destroyed the testable status of
evolution that Darwin (and the so called adpatationists) fought to maintain all their lives. Today
evolution is just post modern waffle.

AW:- Furthermore, he provided the conceptual basis for molecular taxonomy.

JE:- It is a valid analytical use of a simplified model to create taxonomic sets based on possible
gene inheritances.

Best Wishes,

John Edser Independent Researcher

PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

[email protected]
 
[email protected] (Larry Moran) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:03:10 +0000 (UTC), Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote:
> > [email protected] (Larry Moran) wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...

First, let me say that it was not my intention to create and defend a taxonomy of the roles of definitions-of-
phenomena in epistemology. My main point was that definitions serve multiple purposes, and that
different definitions serve different purposes better than others.

Second, let me express my regret that I chose the words "loose" and "precise" for the two kinds
of definitions - I fear that Moran prefers to think of himself as "precise", rather than "loose",
and he is offended that I have made Edser's kind of definition "precise", whereas Moran's kind is
"loose". My apologies for that - it wasn't my intention. My view is that both kinds of
definitions are necessary, and perhaps additional kinds, as well. "Precise" is not better than
"loose" in this context.
>
> [snip]
>
> >> Please give me a precise definition of evolution that works and is a "creature of theory."
> >
> > "Evolution is change in gene frequencies caused by differential survival and reproduction of
> > organisms." This definition is a creature of the neo-Darwinist theory (Fisher, Wright, et al.)
> > It certainly wasn't Darwin's precise definition - he had never heard of genes. His definition
> > involved things like speciation and adaptation, even though his causal ideas were not that
> > different from Fisher's. People between Darwin and Fischer (Bateson, for example) also talked
> > about evolution without necessarily talking about changes in gene frequencies.
>
> Thank-you very much for offering a concrete example that we can examine. The definition of
> evolution that I prefer is the one in the article that I wrote for the Talk.Origins Archive. I
> don't claim that this definition is original. In that article I've tried to summarize the
> consensus among evolutionary biologists.
>
> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html
>
> "Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many
> generations."
>

I like this definition. "Heritable changes" is a big improvement over "change in gene frequencies".
"Spread over many generations" is also a desirable clarification, though I will quibble about one of
its side-effects below. Of course, this is an example of what I have called a "loose definition",
since it doesn't mention causality. It might also work as a precise definition - I don't insist that
a precise definition HAS TO talk about causality.

> There are many variations of this definition. Some of them are mentioned in the article. The most
> common variant refers to changes in the frequency of alleles in a population.
>
> Keep in mind that this is a minimal definition of evolution and doesn't address the birth and
> extinction of populations. It is, admittedly, a creature of prior knowledge in that it assumes an
> understanding of populations of organisms and of heredity.

The "minimal" nature of the definition tends to make it verge toward my "precise" pole of the
spectrum. Why has this aspect of Darwin's thinking been excluded? Because the theory doesn't address
these aspects of the phenomenon. There is nothing wrong with that - no theory can do everything. But
the fact that speciation is excluded does support Edser's position that definitions of phenomena may
be contaminated by the theory.

>
> What are the possible causes of these changes that would form part of evolutionary theory? One of
> them is a Lamarckian form of evolution where the heritable characteristics of a population changed
> within an individual in response to the environment. In theory, we could imagine that there would
> be no differential survival of organisms in this this type of evolution (i.e. every individual
> gave rise to one and only one descendant). The heritable characteristics of the population would
> change over time and the population would evolve.
>
> We know that this isn't the way that evolution occurs but it isn't ruled out by the definition of
> evolution. That's the way it should be.
>
> What are some other possible causes of changes in heritable characteristics? One of them is
> mutation. New alleles (mutations) arise in a population at measurable frequency. This is an
> important part of evolutionary theory and it is consistent with the definition of evolution since
> the definition doesn't specify causes. Your definition does specify a cause. It says ...
>
> "Evolution is change in gene frequencies caused by differential survival and reproduction of
> organisms."
>
> Is it your intention to eliminate mutation and possible Lamarckian explanations by defining them
> out of existence? Why do you want to do this?
>

I certainly wouldn't want to rule them out in a loose definition of the phenomenon. But if my theory
ruled them out, or if my theory just didn't cover these possibilities, I might word the precise
definition as I did. You did ask me to provide a precise definition, remember?

Incidentally, your preferred definition suffers from a similar problem. The phrase "spread over many
generations" seems to define saltationist explanations out of existence. I suspect this wasn't your
intention. But, nonetheless, your definition seems to be something of a creature of a theory that
DOES rule out saltation. Also, did you intend to rule out gene changes within a generation - such as
Lamarckism? Or, does the "spread over many generations" simply indicate the delta-t that should be
used in measuring change? There are probably changes in gene frequency that take place over the
course of a year in a population of annual plants. That certainly isn't "evolution", but I'm not
sure it is a good idea to exclude explanation of this phenomenon in the definition.

These are quibbles, to be sure. My intention is not to attack your definition or to attack you. I'm
simply pointing out that it can be difficult to come up with definitions that are totally
independent of theory.

> I realize that we're quibbling over details. Perhaps it would be best to think of your proposed
> definition as a simple variant of what most of us agree is the standard definition. I really don't
> see that it's profoundly different in spite of the fact that I think it's a bit too restrictive.
>
> > Since Kimura and Hamilton, we have better precise definitions that work even better. That is
> > because we have better theories. Of course, if you prefer to think of precise theories as not
> > containing any reference to causation, then Kimura and Hamilton don't change Fisher's precise
> > definition, in your view. But you have to admit that the definition of evolution HAS changed
> > since Darwin. And, for that matter, the definition of "gene" has changed since Fisher.
>
> I don't see that Kimura and Hamilton had any effect on the definition of evolution.

No effect on your definition. Kimura, at least, has an effect on the precise, theory-laden
definition that you asked me to provide. My precise definition should probably be changed to
accomodate Kimura.

> I also don't see any significant different between the definition that I prefer and what Darwin
> thought of as the minimal definition of evolution. Darwin didn't know as much as we know about
> genes and how they work but he did know about heritable characteristics and why they were
> important in evolution. In fact, he proposed a theory of genes.
>
> >> Please explain why your "precise" definitions isn't mentioned in the textbooks on evolutionary
> >> biology.
> >
> > Clearly, it IS mentioned in textbooks.
>
> Okay. Let's assume that your proposed definition is mentioned in textbooks. Why is it more
> "precise" than the one I prefer? Is it simply because you use the word "genes" instead of
> "alleles" or "heritable"? Or, is it because you specify a cause, a cause which seems pretty
> nebulous to me.

Because it specifies a cause. That is by the definition of "precise" which started this discussion.
A hope I have made clear that my "precise" definition is an obsolete one (since Kimura) and that
"precise" is not better than "loose" in my mind.

>
> >> I'm sure you must have such a "precise" definition in mind because if you don't your posting
> >> doesn't make sense. It would be a great help to me if someone could come up with an example
> >> definition instead of making vague accusations against the standard one. (I'm expecting a
> >> comparision between your precise definition of evolution and the "loose" one that evolutionary
> >> biologists use. Which one is better, in your opinion, and why?)
> >
> > The precise definition is best for explaining, testing, and understanding the theory. The loose
> > definition is best for expanding, improving, and overthrowing the theory.
>
> Evolutionary theory is supposed to explain the causes of evolution. In order to do this we have to
> have a common understanding of what evolution is. That's the purpose of a definition. There may be
> many possible causes of evolution. Some of them will be right and some of them will be wrong. It
> seems to me that you are advocating that we change the definition of evolution according to the
> best available evolutionary theory of the day. If we had done this in the past then the definition
> of evolution might include a cause such as natural selection and that would be extremely self-
> serving and wrong. It would restrict evolution to only those causes that most people accepted in
> any given year and eliminate by fiat all competing causal theories.

I agree with this. That is why we need loose definitions. Precise definitions, contaminated by
theory, shouldn't be used to delimit the discipline.

>
> There are some people who would like to do this. They would like to "define" evolution as changes
> caused by natural selection and eliminate random genetic drift as completely irrelevant to
> evolution. Some of these same people want to rule out neutral changes. They don't think they
> represent real evolution. In my opinion this is a serious error.

Are you sure that "some people" are claiming that neutral changes don't happen? Or are they simply
excluding them from the theory because the theory doesn't cover them? (Much like the way you have
excluded speciation from your definition.) I can't say that I have sufficiently come to understand
"some people"s thinking yet to answer my own question here.

Obviously, it is an error to claim that neutral changes don't happen. It is also an error to claim
that they are irrelevant, unless you specify clearly what you think they are irrelevant to. And
finally, it is reckless to assume that they won't contaminate the testing of a narrow theory that
excludes them without doing a careful analysis. But, having done that analysis, you have just
constructed a testable theory that includes neutral changes. So, in the final analysis, I guess I
would have to agree with you that "some people" are wrong.

> > Personally, I am disappointed that the modern precise definitions of evolution don't explicitly
> > mention speciation.
>
> This is a problem. If we want to cover all levels of evolution then we should also deal with the
> birth and death of populations. That's why I emphasize that the definition is a "minimal"
> definition designed to distinguish between processes that resemble evolution at the population
> level and process that really count as evolution.
>
> >> > I encourage doubters to produce a list of phenomena and check this conceptual framework
> >> > against their list. My list included the origin of life, the origin of the moon, human
> >> > monogamy, photosynthesis, and others. In each case, I notice that the competing theories
> >> > (that I am aware of) agree on a loose definition of the phenomenon, but introduce more or
> >> > less subtle differences in their precise definitions. Particularly interesting to Einstein
> >> > fans is one of Larry's examples - gravity.
> >>
> >> I don't understand these sentences. Could you elaborate? Are you referring to *definitions* of
> >> "the origin of life" etc. I would *define* "the origin of life" as "the point in time when the
> >> first life began." Do you have something else in mind?
> >
> > I would change your loose definition to "the process by which the first life began" for
> > starters. The process is what people are interested in. But then someone is going to ask for a
> > definition of "life". And people like Francis Crick are going to foul things up by offering
> > theories like "Directed Panspermia". Should we ask for the origin of life on Earth? People like
> > Cairns-Smith are going to come up with theories of organisms built from clay that are ancestral
> > to modern organisms only with some stretching of concepts. Every theory forces some revamping of
> > any attempted precise definition.
>
> Please offer a definition that illustrates the problem and how you would solve it.

Are you asking me for a precise definition of the origin of life? I can't provide one, because I
claim that a precise definition is a creature of the theory, and I don't have a theory of the
origin of life.

If Crick believed that his Directed Panspermia solved the problem, then he might have been tempted
to provide a precise definition of the origin as "the process whereby life first appeared on earth".
His causal explanation: aliens did it.

As a loose definition of the origin of life, I would prefer "the process by which autopoeisis came
into existence". Other people would prefer "the process by which reproduction with heritable
variation came into existence". Cairns-Smith has a theory which satisfies the second definition. I
believe that the theory must be extended to satisfy the first definition, to be taken seriously.
Does a theory of the origin of life have to explain protein synthesis and the code?

My point is that different theorists will prefer different definitions of the phenomenon.
>
> > You really never understand exactly what it is you are trying to explain until you explain it!
> > Thereby, you produce a precise definition. But even before you succeed, you had a goal in mind
> > for what you were going to explain - that vague goal is the loose definition.
>
> Hmmmm ... I really don't see your point. The distinction between what you call a "loose"
> definition of evolution and a "precise" definition of evolution is very close to nitpicking.
> Nitpicking can be fun but there's a risk that we miss the main point.

For the phenomenon of evolution, there is some truth to what you say. Evolution is a well studied
phenomenon; we have some concensus on how narrow the definition should be; there are clearly
multiple causes to be covered; and we may be able to come up with a single definition (like yours)
that doesn't mention theory, but provides exactly the right amount of narrow focus.

If you and John had restricted your controversy to the definition of evolution, then maybe I
wouldn't have been tempted to comment. But towards the end, it seemed that you two were talking
about the relationship between theory and definition in general. And, for a lot of phenomena, I
think the relationship is pretty muddy.

>
> >> What about "gravity"? The word is normally *defined* as something like "the attractive force
> >> between massive bodies that is proportional to the product of their masses and inversely
> >> proportional to the square of their separation." This doesn't look to me like a definition
> >> that's a creature of theory. What did you mean?
> >
> > Actually you are giving Newton's precise definition of *gravitation*, not of gravity. Gravity is
> > the force here on earth that makes apples fall and it was known long before Newton.
>
> I think this discussion is getting way too semantic for my liking.

Gee, I'm sorry. Semantics has no place in a discussion of the meaning of the word "definition". ;-)

I hope you didn't interpret my distinction between gravity and gravitation as some kind of putdown.
I seized on it only because the fact that gravity can be (mostly) reductionistically explained by
gravitation seemed like it would help me make my point.

>
> > Galileo provided the first quantitative theory of gravity. Newton reduced gravity to a special
> > case of a new theory - gravitation. Einstein showed that Newton's gravitation, along with the
> > laws of conservation of momentum and energy, are only approximations to a more general theory -
> > General Relativity. The loose definition of gravity as a tendency of things to seek the center
> > of the earth is still valid, but the precise definition changes with each new theory. Even if
> > you leave out Einstein, gravity now includes a mix of the centripetal force due to gravitation,
> > the centrifugal force due to the earth's rotation, and small changes in the shape of the earth
> > caused by lunar and solar tides.
> >
> > Incidentally, Newton had a loose definition of gravitation before he had a precise one. He knew
> > there was an attractive force from Copernicus, but it took a careful analysis of Kepler's laws
> > to determine that it must be an inverse square force.
>
> Please give me your preferred *definition* of gravity so I can try and see what you're talking
> about. It seems to me that you are confused about the difference between a definition of gravity
> and the cause (explanation) of gravity.

I gave an ancient loose definition above - a tendency of things to seek the center of the earth. A
good precise definition for Galileo's time might have been - the acceleration of 9.8 m/sec^2 toward
the center of the earth experienced by an unsupported object. At the time, there were no good causal
explanations. However, I think that it is clear that Galileo had created a THEORY of gravity simply
by giving a precise definition of the phenomenon. Not all theory is reductionism.

Newton, though, did provide a successful reductionist (causal) explanation, and also redefined
the phenomenon - pointing out that gravity varies with altitude and with latitude. New theory -
new precise definition of the phenomenon. Please don't ask me to put Newton's precise definition
into words.

Newton's law of gravitation has a precise definition much like the one you offered above. Did it
include a causal structure? Newton didn't think so. "Hypotheses non fingo". Later, Einstein provided
one, but only by changing the precise definition to include gravitational effects of rotation,
gravitational effects of massless objects, and other refinements.

My point is simply that precise definitions of phenomena change with the theories that support them.
I might ask, by the way, which came first - your preferred definition of evolution, or your
preferred theory of evolution? You have crafted your definition to accomodate future changes in
theory, but I suspect that careful scientists of a couple of generations ago, knowing less than you
know of modern theory, might not have come up with the definition that you now propose.

My final point, which I'll hope you agree with, is that rigid epistemological methodologies don't
work. Saying that THE definition MUST be theory-neutral is as much of a mistake as saying that THE
definition MUST be part of the theory. The progress of science is much messier than that.

No, let me correct that. That was my ORIGINAL point, and my only point. I hope we can let this
subject die. You are welcome to have the last word, if you want.

Jim
 
Jim Menegay wrote:
> [email protected] (Larry Moran) wrote in message

>>> Incidentally, Newton had a loose definition of gravitation before he had a precise one. He knew
>>> there was an attractive force from Copernicus, but it took a careful analysis of Kepler's laws
>>> to determine that it must be an inverse square force.
>>
>> Please give me your preferred *definition* of gravity so I can try and see what you're talking
>> about. It seems to me that you are confused about the difference between a definition of gravity
>> and the cause (explanation) of gravity.
>
> I gave an ancient loose definition above - a tendency of things to seek the center of the earth. A
> good precise definition for Galileo's time might have been - the acceleration of 9.8 m/sec^2
> toward the center of the earth experienced by an unsupported object. At the time, there were no
> good causal explanations.

Ok, the use of the words "precise and "loose" are non standard in these contexts, such that, they
should be dropped. It certainly had me confused as to what was really being referred to. Precise
and loose are equivalent to exact and inexact, this does not express the intent of these words as
used here.

What we have here is *General* (loose) and *Specific* (precise) definitions. Precise simply means
making an exact, clear definition. Such a definition can a general or specific one.

A General definition would be "that entity which results in mass attracting mass, is named gravity".
This is general, i.e. non specific as it does not specify anything but the effect. The effect could
have any associated mathematics. It is also indeed precise, i.e. no room for interpretaion, hence
the use of the word loose is very misleading. A Specific definition would be "that entity which
results in mass attracting mass with a relation of mM/r^2, is named gravity". A specific definition
would restrict what is named gravity, in this example.

It is then more clear why general and specific definitions can both be considered the most
appropriate depending on the circumstances. *All* definitions, whether general or specific, should
be precise.

Kevin Aylward

http://www.anasoft.co.uk SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode Windows Simulator with Schematic
Capture, Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

"That which is mostly observed, is that which replicates the most"
http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html

"quotes with no meaning, are meaningless" - Kevin Aylward.
 
Larry Moran <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:

> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html
>
> "Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many
> generations."
>
> There are many variations of this definition. Some of them are mentioned in the article. The most
> common variant refers to changes in the frequency of alleles in a population.
>
> Keep in mind that this is a minimal definition of evolution and doesn't address the birth and
> extinction of populations.

It seems to work OK there - provided you permit the concept of a population with zero members.

> There are some people who would like to do this. They would like to "define" evolution as changes
> caused by natural selection and eliminate random genetic drift as completely irrelevant to
> evolution. Some of these same people want to rule out neutral changes. They don't think they
> represent real evolution. In my opinion this is a serious error.

Anyone apart from John? I don't think I've come across this elsewhere.
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Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:

> Incidentally, your preferred definition suffers from a similar problem.
>
> The phrase "spread over many generations" seems to define saltationist explanations out of
> existence. I suspect this wasn't your intention. But, nonetheless, your definition seems to be
> something of a creature of a theory that DOES rule out saltation. Also, did you intend to rule out
> gene changes within a generation - such as Lamarckism?

Saltation and Lamarckian changes would still show up as change spread over many generations.

> Or, does the "spread over many generations" simply indicate the delta-t that should be used in
> measuring change? There are probably changes in gene frequency that take place over the course of
> a year in a population of annual plants. That certainly isn't "evolution" [...]

No? It /does/ seem to qualify under most definitions I can think of.

...then the "Cairns-Smith" bit:

> As a loose definition of the origin of life, I would prefer "the process by which autopoeisis
> came into existence". Other people would prefer "the process by which reproduction with heritable
> variation came into existence". Cairns-Smith has a theory which satisfies the second definition.
> I believe that the theory must be extended to satisfy the first definition, to be taken
> seriously. [...]

"Reproduction with heritable variation" and "autopoeisis" are alternative attempts to characterise
the nature of living systems.

It isn't clear how you can have an evolving system which isn't also characterised by autopoiesis.

I guess a trivial one might be too ineffectual to be regarded as being autopoietic.

How non-trivial self-reproducing systems arise from the simplest ones is equally a problem for all
theories of life's origin.

I think selection for large size may have been an important element here.

In model systems there's often strong selection for small size - smaller agents reproduce rapidly,
and need fewer resources than larger ones - and soon come to dominate.

My candidate for the original and most basic force that selected for large size: gravity.

One way in which large objects differ from small ones is that the influence of gravity on them is
more pronounced.

Small objects can be thrown all over the place by thermal motion. Large objects sink to the bottom.
This difference in behaviour can be selected for - on inclined surfaces, in "updraughts", or in
moving water.

Once large organisms don't face overwhelming competition from smaller relatives, life can more
easily become complex.
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Tim Tyler <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:
> > As a loose definition of the origin of life, I would prefer "the process by which autopoeisis
> > came into existence". Other people would prefer "the process by which reproduction with
> > heritable variation came into existence". Cairns-Smith has a theory which satisfies the second
> > definition. I believe that the theory must be extended to satisfy the first definition, to be
> > taken seriously. [...]
>
> "Reproduction with heritable variation" and "autopoeisis" are alternative attempts to characterise
> the nature of living systems.

It is important that they characterize the problem differently. Modern life happens to have both
characteristics - the interesting question regarding OOL is which came first.

>
> It isn't clear how you can have an evolving system which isn't also characterised by autopoiesis.

Evolving systems without autopoiesis are routinely constructed and studied by "Artificial Life" and
"Genetic algorithms" researchers. To my mind, naked gene systems are another example of a system
with heritable variation that are not autopoeic.

As I understand it, autopoeisis includes a self-maintaining and self- reconstruction aspect that is
quite distinct from reproduction. I am acting autopoeically when I replace 95%+ of my body's atoms
over the course of a year, without changing my exterior form or internal organization significantly.
All modern biological life has this characteristic - even when it is not reproducing. Naked genes -
whether built from clay or RNA - do not (though perhaps a different hypothetical genetic substance
might be autopoeic).
 
Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:
> Tim Tyler <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> > Jim Menegay <[email protected]> wrote or quoted:

> > > As a loose definition of the origin of life, I would prefer "the process by which autopoeisis
> > > came into existence". Other people would prefer "the process by which reproduction with
> > > heritable variation came into existence". Cairns-Smith has a theory which satisfies the second
> > > definition. I believe that the theory must be extended to satisfy the first definition, to be
> > > taken seriously.

[...]

> > It isn't clear how you can have an evolving system which isn't also characterised by
> > autopoiesis.
>
> Evolving systems without autopoiesis are routinely constructed and studied by "Artificial Life"
> and "Genetic algorithms" researchers. To my mind, naked gene systems are another example of a
> system with heritable variation that are not autopoeic.

> As I understand it, autopoeisis includes a self-maintaining and self- reconstruction aspect that
> is quite distinct from reproduction. I am acting autopoeically when I replace 95%+ of my body's
> atoms over the course of a year, without changing my exterior form or internal organization
> significantly. All modern biological life has this characteristic - even when it is not
> reproducing. Naked genes - whether built from clay or RNA - do not (though perhaps a different
> hypothetical genetic substance might be autopoeic).

"Distinct from reproduction" doesn't seem to be part of the definitions I have seen.

Consider, for example:

``Autopoiesis literally means "self-production" (from the Greek: auto for self- and poiesis for
creation or production) and expresses a fundamental complementarity between structure and function.
The term was originally introduced by Chilean biologists Francisco Varela and Humberto Maturana in
the early 1970s. More precisely, the term refers to the dynamics of non-equilibrium structures; that
is, organised states (sometimes also called dissipative structures) that remain stable for long
periods of time despite matter and energy continually flowing through them. [...]''

- http://www.wordiq.com/cgi-bin/knowledge/lookup.cgi?title=Autopoiesis

It doesn't seem to say anything about /how/ stability is maintained.

I would suggest populations studied by "Artificial Life" and "Genetic algorithms" researchers fit
into this definition just fine - if they are in a stable situation. Similarly with populations of
"naked genes".

Such populations survive environmental perturbations by having made multiple backup copies of their
genome in advance - so that when copies are destroyed they can be easily replaced.
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