Neuromuscular Power Changes

RapDaddyo said:

It's for three reasons. The first reason is that FTP is relatively slow to respond and requires a lot of focus. So, AC work means that something else receives less attention (e.g., FTP). The second reason is that 6 wks is about long enough to peak AC (assuming focus during the 6 wks). The third reason is that AC detrains quickly as well, so if you peak it 10-12 weeks from your first target event, you need to maintain it (again taking away time and energy from FTP). So, 6 wks is sort of by default (late enough to allow focus on FTP and early enough to peak it).

Ok, this makes sense as obviously one's available time for training is quite a finite resource!

I'll want to revisit this question for more specifics next spring...

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Ok, this makes sense as obviously one's available time for training is quite a finite resource!

I'll want to revisit this question for more specifics next spring...

Good plan. By then, you'll just love L4s.😄

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

I believe I read somewhere that NM power does decline with age, and seeing as you've been in the sport for many years

Now that's a diplomatic way of phrasing it. 😉

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

perhaps that is why?

I listed "aging" as the first possible explanation (although notably, my ability to lift weights hasn't noticably declined).

acoggan said:

Now that's a diplomatic way of phrasing it. 😉

Savoir faire isn't completely dead 😎

acoggan said:

I listed "aging" as the first possible explanation (although notably, my ability to lift weights hasn't noticably declined).

Yes you did and I apparently forgot! :o

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Looks like at least two people have voted for 300-400 watt increases - hopefully they can comment on their training approach.

Went from just barely breaking 900 watts (12.5w/kg at 73kg) to now being on the verge of breaking the 1300 (19w/kg at 68kg) barrier. Wow, looking at it as w/kg, that is really a big jump. I'd never thought about how far it's come. The main reason it happened is because I was almost never sprinting before. No focused training that first year of riding, just going out and having a good time and making sure I was working enough to get my endorphin fix. I did two standing start workouts about six months ago, but for whatever reason I havn't done any since; strange because I remember enjoying them. I'm excited to start regularly doing those after hearing how just about everybody improves their sprint within a short time of doing these.

My sprint work seems to be sprinting for the "finish line" at the end of a group ride, and when I used to ride a certain route that had a downhill rolling into an uphill, I'd sprint at the bottom and hold it until over the top, which would take about 30 seconds.

ric_stern/RST said:

Mine's not changed a jot -- it was 842 W in 1995 and it's about 830 W now (having gone from an SRM Science to PT). Not that i train it that much. Still, i like to laugh that dead people can sprint faster than me. Still, i know i could (have) beat a few world class pros.

On the other hand, one of the track sprinters i coach went from ~1200 W (when he was a roadie) to ~2K W after solely concentrating on track sprinting and the kilo. And, OH MY GOD, weights :eek:. Wow did i actually say that i recommended weights?

Ric

Ric, that's bloody amazing! From a coaching/talent ID/event selection perspective, what made him/you/anyone think that he could improve his fairly marginal NMP by a massive - nay, ridiculous - 67% to a world class level?

Roadie_scum said:

Ric, that's bloody amazing! From a coaching/talent ID/event selection perspective, what made him/you/anyone think that he could improve his fairly marginal NMP by a massive - nay, ridiculous - 67% to a world class level?

There was nothing quantifiable as such. Essentially, when he came to me he was a road sprinter, and that's what we continued for a year. However, every race he did that had a hill longer than seconds and he'd be shelled. he rode track every winter and would win most of those league races.

at some point we just decided that endurance work was hurting him and we'd solely concentrate on track work. once we drastically reduced the volume his peak power increased a lot. Once we dialled in proper track sprint and kilo work there were further increases. Coupled with lots of weights, and mainly kilo type training he improved further and went on to win major competitions.

funniest story, was after he'd been doing some kilo specific work, he came to see me for testing and did a kilo on my trainer. It was too much for the trainer, and burnt the motor unit out on it (as well as shredding the tyre).

In short, he'd started out wanting to be like Cipo (or whoever) and essentially, the endurance work was ruining him. it was all about reducing the volume, increasing the intensity and doing the weights.

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

There was nothing quantifiable as such. Essentially, when he came to me he was a road sprinter, and that's what we continued for a year. However, every race he did that had a hill longer than seconds and he'd be shelled. he rode track every winter and would win most of those league races.
ric

Let me add to this:
I feel that if he'd had a power meter from the get go a lot of this time would have been shortened and we'd have had a better idea of what was happening.

i learnt a lot that year about coaching. In fact that was the first time i'd ever coached anyone in track sprinting and it was a steep learning curve once he jumped into soley track sprinting.

ric

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Yes now Andy, really you ought to be spending more time with the iron 🙂

On a serious note, I believe I read somewhere that NM power does decline with age, and seeing as you've been in the sport for many years - perhaps that is why?

Although a couple of years old, here is a discussion about this...

http://groups.google.com/group/wattage/browse_frm/thread/7ad454392f76b8f/bc9cf8501d1a949c?lnk=gst&q=armstrong+sprint&rnum=6&hl=en#bc9cf8501d1a949c

Just some more to think about and brings to mind some saying about specificity... 🙂

Jim

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Um, it was 0.6 m :o

[INDENT]"A variety of variables can be derived from the VJ. While direct measurement of power output requires the use of a force plate, estimates of muscular power can be made using prediction equations that incorporate vertical jump height and body mass (75). The Lewis formula has commonly been used to estimate power output during the VJ test, however the validity of this formula has been challenged (37). Recently, Sayers et al., (75) reported that the following equation, based on the SJ, resulted in an accurate prediction of muscular power:

peak power (watts) = 60.7  (jump height [cm]) + 45.3  (body mass [kg.]) - 2055;
SEE = 355 watts"[/INDENT]
"ACCURATE ASSESSMENT OF MUSCULAR STRENGTH AND POWER", Brown and Weir, 2001: faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/Brown2.doc

I just looked at some files from last Dec. when I got my first PT. My peak power is about the same, but my bodyweight is 15-20 lbs lighter and the 5-10 second power has less decline from peak.FT is about 30 watts higher as well(still is dismal)..IOW I am faster and more fit. Unfortunately I brought some preconcieved ideas about training with me from years in the gym. I was only riding 3 days per week and resting lots. I am now riding 6 days and doing better. The PM helps me keep track of what works.

This season I'm banging out 150W more peak power than same period last year. This season I've done no specific sprint / NMP work. Last season I did heaps.

I'm much stronger aerobically this season (many aerobic PBs in the last couple of months).

Go figure.

Alex Simmons said:

This season I'm banging out 150W more peak power than same period last year. This season I've done no specific sprint / NMP work. Last season I did heaps.

I'm much stronger aerobically this season (many aerobic PBs in the last couple of months).

Go figure.

Well done Alex, though as you said, go figure!

Hey, did you hear about what she did today? [img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]

[img]cyclingnews.compic2.jpgOpen ↗[/img]

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Well done Alex, though as you said, go figure!

Hey, did you hear about what she did today? [img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]

What an awesome ride.

Isn't that a sexy bike?

Gee, what is that I see hanging from her seat...

Hmmm...

Jim

ric_stern/RST said:

Let me add to this:
I feel that if he'd had a power meter from the get go a lot of this time would have been shortened and we'd have had a better idea of what was happening.

i learnt a lot that year about coaching. In fact that was the first time i'd ever coached anyone in track sprinting and it was a steep learning curve once he jumped into soley track sprinting.ric

So out of curiosity considering another thread were his weights targeted at hypertrophy, did he put on muscle, and do you think this helped him improve. Did you see an appreciable increase in squat or deadlift totals matching his increase in NM power?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Well done Alex, though as you said, go figure!

Hey, did you hear about what she did today? [img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Of course! I watched her win the gold in the team sprint with sister Kerrie. Kerrie's bike is identical except the black and yellow are reversed.

otb4evr said:

Gee, what is that I see hanging from her seat...

I posted to FGF about Ryan Bayley's SRM PC which came loose and flew off in the Keirin final!

PM's everywhere, more than I've seen at previous rounds.

All the Kiwis, the entire Danish pursuit team, the Germans, the Aussies of course etc etc.

fergie said:

So out of curiosity considering another thread were his weights targeted at hypertrophy, did he put on muscle, and do you think this helped him improve. Did you see an appreciable increase in squat or deadlift totals matching his increase in NM power?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

yes, to all that. however, the 'funny' thing is i *think* you'll see some endurance riders who do weights post that they could lift more than he could. (that's a *think* btw)

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

yes, to all that. however, the 'funny' thing is i *think* you'll see some endurance riders who do weights post that they could lift more than he could. (that's a *think* btw)

ric

So he was new to lifting?

Billsworld said:

So he was new to lifting?

yes when he swapped from road to track

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

yes when he swapped from road to track

ric

Must have had a good coach
😄