Neuromuscular Power Changes

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Hi...

I am curious to hear about the experience of others with neuromuscular power. More specifically, along the lines of how it has changed, if at all, since you began training with a powermeter.

In more simple terms, has it increased? If so, by how much? Has it regressed? And of course, please comment on whether you do sprints as part of your training or any other relevant information.

Since I got a PM I've had a modest increase in NM power, (increase of 180 w at max power so far) and continue to keep it as a regular, if secondary, part of my training goals.

 

[frenchyge]

I'm going to give myself a "No Change" even though I hit my highest power a year ago during a sprint workout (2 months after getting my PM).

I've done a total of 13 NM sets in the last year (ie, sprints or jumps) -- not a big priority for me, since my ~1200-1300 watts seems to be good enough to mix it up with roadies and the end of the race usually comes down to aerobic fitness anyway.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

I'm going to give myself a "No Change" even though I hit my highest power a year ago during a sprint workout (2 months after getting my PM).

I've done a total of 13 NM sets in the last year (ie, sprints or jumps) -- not a big priority for me, since my ~1200-1300 watts seems to be good enough to mix it up with roadies and the end of the race usually comes down to aerobic fitness anyway.

Hey Frenchy

You are quite right in mentioning aerobic fitness and the importance it has. If you aren't fit enough to be with the lead group at the end, then one's sprinting abilities become largely irrelevant.

Here's the thing, in this forum I think we have, and continue to read about great improvements in FTP, and even AWC, as Andy alluded to in his post about kilo repeats recently. The question remains though, are any riders seeing similar improvements in the NM component?

I believe Rap once said that he didn't believe NM power could be increased very much beyond one's natural or untrained state - I'm paraphrasing here.
True? False? Uncertain?

Taking the hypothesis (key word) that one's NM power has very limited possibility for gains then - why do the workouts other than for technique? and form?

 

[frenchyge]

why do the workouts other than for technique? and form?

Don't forget stroking the ego, collecting bragging rights, and the occasional drag race for 'pinks.'

Maintenance and technique are why I do them, but then I've always had good NM power (ie, good vertical leap, grew up playing basketball and volleyball). Technique plays a big part in getting one's power to the road, and may well be what you're seeing in your training.

Hopefully someone who's made this a focus will describe their results.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I regularly do L7 intervals, mainly for maintenance and technique. I have seen very small improvements in my 5s power (maybe 100W), but I think I have increased my 20s AP ~200W. That's actually a pretty big deal for a roadie because the sprints often start 15-30secs from the finish line (at least the lead out). It's really straddling NM and AWC, so I'm actually not sure which efforts have produced the adaptation (because I do both L6s and L7s). And, yes, I think NM power is largely genetic and is maybe the least trainable among the big 4 adaptations.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Hi...

I am curious to hear about the experience of others with neuromuscular power. More specifically, along the lines of how it has changed, if at all, since you began training with a powermeter.

In more simple terms, has it increased? If so, by how much? Has it regressed? And of course, please comment on whether you do sprints as part of your training or any other relevant information.

Since I got a PM I've had a modest increase in NM power, (increase of 180 w at max power so far) and continue to keep it as a regular, if secondary, part of my training goals.

Mine's not changed a jot -- it was 842 W in 1995 and it's about 830 W now (having gone from an SRM Science to PT). Not that i train it that much. Still, i like to laugh that dead people can sprint faster than me. Still, i know i could (have) beat a few world class pros.

On the other hand, one of the track sprinters i coach went from ~1200 W (when he was a roadie) to ~2K W after solely concentrating on track sprinting and the kilo. And, OH MY GOD, weights . Wow did i actually say that i recommended weights?

Ric

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Don't forget stroking the ego, collecting bragging rights, and the occasional drag race for 'pinks.'

Er, um, pinks???

Maintenance and technique are why I do them, but then I've always had good NM power (ie, good vertical leap, grew up playing basketball and volleyball). Technique plays a big part in getting one's power to the road, and may well be what you're seeing in your training.

Vertical jump seems to be a measure of power and I would guess it has some relation to fast-twitch ability? I figured out mine, jump that is, the other day but haven't a clue if it is any good.

Hopefully someone who's made this a focus will describe their results.

I hope so, I'd like to think that the L7 range can be improved at least somewhat as compared to FTP, Vo2 Max, AWC.

I regularly do L7 intervals, mainly for maintenance and technique. I have seen very small improvements in my 5s power (maybe 100W), but I think I have increased my 20s AP ~200W. That's actually a pretty big deal for a roadie because the sprints often start 15-30secs from the finish line (at least the lead out). It's really straddling NM and AWC, so I'm actually not sure which efforts have produced the adaptation (because I do both L6s and L7s). And, yes, I think NM power is largely genetic and is maybe the least trainable among the big 4 adaptations.

Yes, so you have said, and in this case it seems technique and form are the main reasons to do it. That's a good gain in 20s AP - would you agree it is probably more do to the big improvements you've made in AWC?

Mine's not changed a jot -- it was 842 W in 1995 and it's about 830 W now (having gone from an SRM Science to PT). Not that i train it that much. Still, i like to laugh that dead people can sprint faster than me. Still, i know i could (have) beat a few world class pros.

On the other hand, one of the track sprinters i coach went from ~1200 W (when he was a roadie) to ~2K W after solely concentrating on track sprinting and the kilo. And, OH MY GOD, weights . Wow did i actually say that i recommended weights?

Ric

Hmmm, well being dead, those sprinters that are figuratively beating you won't be needing any HRM at least. That's got to count for something!

That's a good anecdote, about one of your athletes improving so much in their sprint ability. Don't look now but yes, you did recommend weights

I hope to never see the front of a squat rack

 

[otb4evr]

Mine's not changed a jot -- it was 842 W in 1995 and it's about 830 W now (having gone from an SRM Science to PT). Not that i train it that much. Still, i like to laugh that dead people can sprint faster than me. Still, i know i could (have) beat a few world class pros.

On the other hand, one of the track sprinters i coach went from ~1200 W (when he was a roadie) to ~2K W after solely concentrating on track sprinting and the kilo. And, OH MY GOD, weights . Wow did i actually say that i recommended weights?

Ric

Ric,

I seem to remember you saying something to the fact that weights are only good if you are a track sprinter...

Lucy, I previously had told you about a 'form sprint' interval that I do. Here is another one that I do on a trainer:

1. Seated Stomps
In a big gear (53x14, 13, 12) do 15 seconds of stomping the pedals. Your goal for this is to accelerate the pedal from 30 - 40 rpm to 100+ in as little time as possible. This is done at a maximum effort for every single rep. You do each of them as if it is your last. Spin easy in a little gear for 45 seconds for recovery. These are typically done in sets of 10, or 10 minutes at a time with 10 minutes easy spinning between sets. You would do these 2 – 3 days a week, typically during your warm up and cool down for 3 – 4 weeks at the beginning of the season. You can substitute a moderate ride with a workout that includes several sets of these.

Jim

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Lucy, I previously had told you about a 'form sprint' interval that I do. Here is another one that I do on a trainer:

1. Seated Stomps
In a big gear (53x14, 13, 12) do 15 seconds of stomping the pedals. Your goal for this is to accelerate the pedal from 30 - 40 rpm to 100+ in as little time as possible. This is done at a maximum effort for every single rep. You do each of them as if it is your last. Spin easy in a little gear for 45 seconds for recovery. These are typically done in sets of 10, or 10 minutes at a time with 10 minutes easy spinning between sets. You would do these 2 – 3 days a week, typically during your warm up and cool down for 3 – 4 weeks at the beginning of the season. You can substitute a moderate ride with a workout that includes several sets of these.

Jim

Hi Jim...

Yes you did mention those, though it was a while ago, or so I remember.

Back to the topic at hand however, how has your NM power changed since you began using a PM?

Looks like at least two people have voted for 300-400 watt increases - hopefully they can comment on their training approach.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Ric,

I seem to remember you saying something to the fact that weights are only good if you are a track sprinter...

that's correct (sprinter/500-m/kilo/olympic sprint/etc). In my previous post the rider stopped riding the road completely, and switched to track sprint and kilo, and has stayed there. I don't think he'll race the road ever again.

ric

 

[RapDaddyo]

Er, um, pinks???

Short for pink slips, aka car titles.

Yes, so you have said, and in this case it seems technique and form are the main reasons to do it. That's a good gain in 20s AP - would you agree it is probably more do to the big improvements you've made in AWC?

That's my guess since my 5s MP (the gold standard for NM power) improved only ~15% whereas my 20s power increased ~33% and AWC increased almost 40%. This is one of the values of setting up a consistent set of performance tests early in one's use of a PM. After a few months of focused efforts, you can look back and see what changed and what sort of workouts you did that resulted in the changes. It's a bit difficult when you start from a relatively untrained state since everything is on such a fast track upwards as your reach a higher state of total fitness. Sometimes the only explanation for an improvement is simply, "High intensity efforts." This was most clear for me when I was restricted to seated efforts <200W due to sore glutes (okay, frenchy, you can start laughing now ). For ~3 months, every single effort >200W was off the saddle and, consequently, short duration. Basically, my high-intensity efforts for 3 months consisted of L6s, L6s and more L6s. But, I increased my MPs across the full duration spectrum. Am I recommending 3 months of L6 intervals? No. I'm simply using my personal experience to illustrate the fact that when one is relatively untrained almost any high-intensity efforts will raise one's entire MP/duration curve.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Short for pink slips, aka car titles.

Eh, car titles? I was always told pink slips were handed out at the door during one's last day at work!

That's my guess since my 5s MP (the gold standard for NM power) improved only ~15% whereas my 20s power increased ~33% and AWC increased almost 40%. This is one of the values of setting up a consistent set of performance tests early in one's use of a PM. After a few months of focused efforts, you can look back and see what changed and what sort of workouts you did that resulted in the changes. It's a bit difficult when you start from a relatively untrained state since everything is on such a fast track upwards as your reach a higher state of total fitness. Sometimes the only explanation for an improvement is simply, "High intensity efforts." This was most clear for me when I was restricted to seated efforts <200W due to sore glutes (okay, frenchy, you can start laughing now ). For ~3 months, every single effort >200W was off the saddle and, consequently, short duration. Basically, my high-intensity efforts for 3 months consisted of L6s, L6s and more L6s. But, I increased my MPs across the full duration spectrum. Am I recommending 3 months of L6 intervals? No. I'm simply using my personal experience to illustrate the fact that when one is relatively untrained almost any high-intensity efforts will raise one's entire MP/duration curve.

Ok, that's a fairly clear way of analyzing it. Oftentimes I'll see mention of doing AWC and other high intensity work shortly before a target event. You as I recall, do Level 6 work virtually all the time though, is that right? I know your situation, while you had an injury apparently, compromised what you could do - but that notwithstanding, what is your position on L6 & L7 training in terms of when and how much?

Lately, I've been shifting my focus as far as sprint training, from trying to reach new 5 second highs, to extending the length of the sprint for better 15-20 second numbers. The latter seems more indicative of real results than a great 5 second number that rapidly decays.

 

[frenchyge]

Er, um, pinks???

A winner-take-all race where each racer put ownership of their ride [car] on the line, as the wager.

Vertical jump seems to be a measure of power and I would guess it has some relation to fast-twitch ability? I figured out mine, jump that is, the other day but haven't a clue if it is any good.

Well, why don't you post it here, and see if someone can let you know if it's good?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Eh, car titles? I was always told pink slips were handed out at the door during one's last day at work!

That too. You know the clarity of the English language. Maybe we should all learn Chinese.

Ok, that's a fairly clear way of analyzing it. Oftentimes I'll see mention of doing AWC and other high intensity work shortly before a target event. You as I recall, do Level 6 work virtually all the time though, is that right? I know your situation, while you had an injury apparently, compromised what you could do - but that notwithstanding, what is your position on L6 & L7 training in terms of when and how much?

Well, that is a very complex question. I am actually working on a training planning piece of software. It's a rather complex process as is obvious from the input requirements of my planning application. And, a plan is a living thing (or should be), with weekly updates and revisions based on training data (volume, intensity & TSS by level) and performance tests. The most generic answer I can give you is that, yes, I do high-intensity efforts at all levels (including L6) year-round, but the mix changes significantly based on where I am relative to my next target event and the demands of that event. For example, my L6 volume is at its lowest point now because my next target event is not until the end of January. Beginning ~6 wks from my target event, my L6 focus will increase and my weekly L6 TSS as a percentage of total TSS will go up significantly.

Lately, I've been shifting my focus as far as sprint training, from trying to reach new 5 second highs, to extending the length of the sprint for better 15-20 second numbers. The latter seems more indicative of real results than a great 5 second number that rapidly decays.

I agree. I think that if you develop a strong 20s sprint, you will rip the field apart (assuming you're with the lead group at the finish). And if you can recruit a good lead-out partner, "Watch out, ladies!"

 

[acoggan]

Vertical jump seems to be a measure of power and I would guess it has some relation to fast-twitch ability?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=3678217&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum

A vertical jump test was used by the AIS as part of their talent ID program when searching for new 500 m riders. If you search their website, you might be able to find the report detailing these results.

 

[otb4evr]

Hi Jim...

Yes you did mention those, though it was a while ago, or so I remember.

Back to the topic at hand however, how has your NM power changed since you began using a PM?

Looks like at least two people have voted for 300-400 watt increases - hopefully they can comment on their training approach.

Lucy,

My vote was 200- 300 watts.

That wasn't since using a PM, but was since doing focused NM work, including the drills...

Last year, my best was in the low 1200s. This year, my best was in the upper 1400s...

Jim

 

[acoggan]

I'm the one person (so far) who has voted "decreased". I did so because my maximal 5 s power has fallen by 7% over the last 7 y. What I can't say, though, is whether that is due to aging, benign neglect (I generally do very little sprint training...although I do lift weights every winter! ), or a heavy emphasis on training of LT (as the saying goes, too much endurance training blunts your speed).

I've also entertained, but rejected, the hypothesis that it is the result of moving from a PowerTap (usually set to record every 2.56 s and subject to aliasing errors) to an SRM (usuall set to record every 1 s). The reason that I've rejected this hypothesis is that my 10 and 20 s maximum power values, which are based on more samples, have also fallen in parallel with my 5 s power. OTOH, my 30 s power has held constant, and my 1 min power is up by almost 10%. Thus, it appears that my neuromuscular power is falling at the same time my anaerobic capacity is creeping up, with power over 30 s (coincidentally (?) the duration of a Wingate test) reflecting "one foot in each world".

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

A winner-take-all race where each racer put ownership of their ride [car] on the line, as the wager.

How strange!

Well, why don't you post it here, and see if someone can let you know if it's good?

Um, it was 0.6 m

That too. You know the clarity of the English language. Maybe we should all learn Chinese.

I would love to learn Mandarin, or even Cantonese, but even English was difficult enough to learn.

Well, that is a very complex question. I am actually working on a training planning piece of software. It's a rather complex process as is obvious from the input requirements of my planning application. And, a plan is a living thing (or should be), with weekly updates and revisions based on training data (volume, intensity & TSS by level) and performance tests. The most generic answer I can give you is that, yes, I do high-intensity efforts at all levels (including L6) year-round, but the mix changes significantly based on where I am relative to my next target event and the demands of that event. For example, my L6 volume is at its lowest point now because my next target event is not until the end of January. Beginning ~6 wks from my target event, my L6 focus will increase and my weekly L6 TSS as a percentage of total TSS will go up significantly.

The number I keep hearing tossed around is 6 weeks roughly, prior to an event this is, to commence serious Level 6 work. Is this given because most people cannot tolerate a great deal of volume in the Level 6 range for much longer? My intuition suggests is it more by how quickly this energy system trains and peaks?

I agree. I think that if you develop a strong 20s sprint, you will rip the field apart (assuming you're with the lead group at the finish). And if you can recruit a good lead-out partner, "Watch out, ladies!"

I hope to but we'll have to see what happens next spring. More than anything else, I imagine it will all be a learning experience.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3678217&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum

A vertical jump test was used by the AIS as part of their talent ID program when searching for new 500 m riders. If you search their website, you might be able to find the report detailing these results.

Thanks Andy, I will check their website. From a distance, and admittedly my knowledge on this topic is limited, the Aussies seem to be having some impressive results in a variety of sporting pursuits internationally.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Lucy,

My vote was 200- 300 watts.

That wasn't since using a PM, but was since doing focused NM work, including the drills...

Last year, my best was in the low 1200s. This year, my best was in the upper 1400s...

Jim

Jim, those are excellent results and you've detailed your sprint training so that is all the more useful...

I'm the one person (so far) who has voted "decreased". I did so because my maximal 5 s power has fallen by 7% over the last 7 y. What I can't say, though, is whether that is due to aging, benign neglect (I generally do very little sprint training...although I do lift weights every winter! ), or a heavy emphasis on training of LT (as the saying goes, too much endurance training blunts your speed).

I've also entertained, but rejected, the hypothesis that it is the result of moving from a PowerTap (usually set to record every 2.56 s and subject to aliasing errors) to an SRM (usuall set to record every 1 s). The reason that I've rejected this hypothesis is that my 10 and 20 s maximum power values, which are based on more samples, have also fallen in parallel with my 5 s power. OTOH, my 30 s power has held constant, and my 1 min power is up by almost 10%. Thus, it appears that my neuromuscular power is falling at the same time my anaerobic capacity is creeping up, with power over 30 s (coincidentally (?) the duration of a Wingate test) reflecting "one foot in each world".

Yes now Andy, really you ought to be spending more time with the iron

On a serious note, I believe I read somewhere that NM power does decline with age, and seeing as you've been in the sport for many years - perhaps that is why?

 

[RapDaddyo]

The number I keep hearing tossed around is 6 weeks roughly, prior to an event this is, to commence serious Level 6 work. Is this given because most people cannot tolerate a great deal of volume in the Level 6 range for much longer? My intuition suggests is it more by how quickly this energy system trains and peaks?

It's for three reasons. The first reason is that FTP is relatively slow to respond and requires a lot of focus. So, AC work means that something else receives less attention (e.g., FTP). The second reason is that 6 wks is about long enough to peak AC (assuming focus during the 6 wks). The third reason is that AC detrains quickly as well, so if you peak it 10-12 weeks from your first target event, you need to maintain it (again taking away time and energy from FTP). So, 6 wks is sort of by default (late enough to allow focus on FTP and early enough to peak it).