New bike, broken chain.

[Niv]

Got my shiny new Quest Wave (carbonfibre) + Campy-Record bike a few
weeks back.
Magic ride & very light; now I need to lose some weight, just like my
wallet has!

However, first ride out, apart from quick 10 miler to test, the chain
snapped, the plates just parted and not at the original join. Left me
stranded in middle of nowhere, but walkable to colleagues house about
2 miles away, not good for the Keo cleats!

So, anyone know if campy 10 speed chains are suspect, or was I just
unlucky? replacement chain is non-campy BTW. Waiting for weather to
improve to take it out for a decent ride, 40 to 50+ miles I hope;
otherwise its still the winter hack.

Niv

 

[Ben C]

On 2008-03-28, Niv <[email protected]> wrote:
> Got my shiny new Quest Wave (carbonfibre) + Campy-Record bike a few
> weeks back.
> Magic ride & very light; now I need to lose some weight, just like my
> wallet has!
>
> However, first ride out, apart from quick 10 miler to test, the chain
> snapped, the plates just parted and not at the original join. Left me
> stranded in middle of nowhere, but walkable to colleagues house about
> 2 miles away, not good for the Keo cleats!
>
> So, anyone know if campy 10 speed chains are suspect, or was I just
> unlucky? replacement chain is non-campy BTW. Waiting for weather to
> improve to take it out for a decent ride, 40 to 50+ miles I hope;
> otherwise its still the winter hack.

The usual suspect is someone put it together wrong. You have to be quite
careful to use the expensive special pins and peen them right and not
use just any old chain tool. So they say anyway.

10 speed stuff should be fine in general. All the pros use it.

 

[Simon Brooke]

Ben C wrote:

> On 2008-03-28, Niv <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Got my shiny new Quest Wave (carbonfibre) + Campy-Record bike a few
>> weeks back.
>> Magic ride & very light; now I need to lose some weight, just like my
>> wallet has!
>>
>> However, first ride out, apart from quick 10 miler to test, the chain
>> snapped, the plates just parted and not at the original join. Left me
>> stranded in middle of nowhere, but walkable to colleagues house about
>> 2 miles away, not good for the Keo cleats!
>>
>> So, anyone know if campy 10 speed chains are suspect, or was I just
>> unlucky? replacement chain is non-campy BTW. Waiting for weather to
>> improve to take it out for a decent ride, 40 to 50+ miles I hope;
>> otherwise its still the winter hack.
>
> The usual suspect is someone put it together wrong. You have to be quite
> careful to use the expensive special pins and peen them right and not
> use just any old chain tool. So they say anyway.
>
> 10 speed stuff should be fine in general. All the pros use it.

As Ben says, half the pro peloton is using Campagnolo 10 speed chain - just
the same chain you can buy. They're putting much more power through their
transmissions than I can, and, I suspect, more than you can. I've never
broken a Campagnolo chain (or, indeed, any other chain). During the Girvan
three day race that I was assisting with last weekend, just one chain broke
that I heard of. It was Shimano.

I would recommend investing in magic joining links, since they make chain
maintenance (and repair on the road, should it be necessary) much easier.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GP/CS s++: a++ C+++ ULBVCS*++++$ L+++ P--- E+>++ W+++ N++ K w--(---)
M- !d- PS++ PE-- Y+ PGP !t 5? X+ !R b++ !DI D G- e++ h*(-) r++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

 

[dkahn400]

On Mar 28, 8:24 am, Niv <[email protected]> wrote:
> Got my shiny new Quest Wave (carbonfibre) + Campy-Record bike a few
> weeks back.
> Magic ride & very light; now I need to lose some weight, just like my
> wallet has!
>
> However, first ride out, apart from quick 10 miler to test, the chain
> snapped, the plates just parted and not at the original join.  Left me
> stranded in middle of nowhere, but walkable to colleagues house about
> 2 miles away, not good for the Keo cleats!
>
> So, anyone know if campy 10 speed chains are suspect, or was I just
> unlucky?  replacement chain is non-campy BTW.  Waiting for weather to
> improve to take it out for a decent ride, 40 to 50+ miles I hope;
> otherwise its still the winter hack.

As Simon says, if the pros can't break them you shouldn't be able to.
I'm interested in your "not at the original join". Who made this join,
you or the bike shop? Do you know it was a genuine new chain and not
one cobbled together from two pieces?

Another possibility is that it was first correctly assembled then
somebody noticed a routing error and broke the chain then reconnected
it using the original link as you might with an 8-speed chain. If this
was the case you might expect it to come apart somewhere within the
first 100 miles or so. All pure conjecture of course.

--
Dave...

 

[[email protected]]

On Mar 28, 9:22 pm, dkahn400 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 8:24 am, Niv <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Got my shiny new Quest Wave (carbonfibre) + Campy-Record bike a few
> > weeks back.
> > Magic ride & very light; now I need to lose some weight, just like my
> > wallet has!
>
> > However, first ride out, apart from quick 10 miler to test, the chain
> > snapped, the plates just parted and not at the original join. Left me
> > stranded in middle of nowhere, but walkable to colleagues house about
> > 2 miles away, not good for the Keo cleats!
>
> > So, anyone know if campy 10 speed chains are suspect, or was I just
> > unlucky? replacement chain is non-campy BTW. Waiting for weather to
> > improve to take it out for a decent ride, 40 to 50+ miles I hope;
> > otherwise its still the winter hack.
>
> As Simon says, if the pros can't break them you shouldn't be able to.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Pros go fast by pedalling at high
rpm with big chainrings (and they tend to be skinny midgets, hence
there's not much need for tension in the chain). A lardy bloater with
a 22T granny gear might well put a lot more force on a chain.

Not that I'm saying it is particularly likely in ths case...I agree
that a bad join is most likely, although I once broke two chains in
quick succession, which I attribute to a bad batch (not done it before
or since - it was on a tandem so I'm not claiming extraordinary
strength).

James

 

[Pete Biggs]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 28, 9:22 pm, dkahn400 <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 8:24 am, Niv <[email protected]> wrote:

>>> So, anyone know if campy 10 speed chains are suspect, or was I just
>>> unlucky?

Whatever the reason for the failure, you were unlucky, and it's unlikely to
happen with another Campag chain that is joined well.

>>> replacement chain is non-campy BTW.

Some of the compatible chains are wider than the current Campag, so are
noisier. They took the measurement from the previous Campag 10-speed chain:
6.1mm instead of the current 5.9mm.

>>> Waiting for weather
>>> to improve to take it out for a decent ride, 40 to 50+ miles I hope;
>>> otherwise its still the winter hack.
>>
>> As Simon says, if the pros can't break them you shouldn't be able to.
>
> I wouldn't be so sure about that. Pros go fast by pedalling at high
> rpm with big chainrings (and they tend to be skinny midgets, hence
> there's not much need for tension in the chain). A lardy bloater with
> a 22T granny gear might well put a lot more force on a chain.

Don't forget the sprinters. These have powerful muscles and put a hell of a
lot of force on the chain as they come up to the finishing line.

~PB

 

[Mark T]

[email protected] writtificated

> A lardy bloater with a 22T granny gear might well put a lot more force on
> a chain.

Jan Ulrich rode a triple?!

 

[Marz]

On Mar 28, 3:24 am, Niv <[email protected]> wrote:
> Got my shiny new Quest Wave (carbonfibre) + Campy-Record bike a few
> weeks back.
> Magic ride & very light; now I need to lose some weight, just like my
> wallet has!
>
> However, first ride out, apart from quick 10 miler to test, the chain
> snapped, the plates just parted and not at the original join.  Left me
> stranded in middle of nowhere, but walkable to colleagues house about
> 2 miles away, not good for the Keo cleats!
>
> So, anyone know if campy 10 speed chains are suspect, or was I just
> unlucky?  replacement chain is non-campy BTW.  Waiting for weather to
> improve to take it out for a decent ride, 40 to 50+ miles I hope;
> otherwise its still the winter hack.
>
> Niv

Sounds like who ever built the bike didn't know what they were doing.
If the bike is just a few weeks old, the shop you got the bike from
should replace the chain.

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting Simon Brooke <[email protected]>:
>As Ben says, half the pro peloton is using Campagnolo 10 speed chain - just
>the same chain you can buy. They're putting much more power through their
>transmissions than I can, and, I suspect, more than you can.

Power, yes, but force? Until you get to pulling up on the bars (which
admittedly they do), the force one puts through the chain is just a matter
of chainring size and available lard.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Oneiros, April.

 

[M-gineering]

Niv wrote:
> Got my shiny new Quest Wave (carbonfibre) + Campy-Record bike a few
> weeks back.
> Magic ride & very light; now I need to lose some weight, just like my
> wallet has!
>
> However, first ride out, apart from quick 10 miler to test, the chain
> snapped, the plates just parted and not at the original join. Left me
> stranded in middle of nowhere, but walkable to colleagues house about
> 2 miles away, not good for the Keo cleats!
>

To make you feel better: it could have taken out the rear wheel, the RD
and a non replable dropout, apart from the dentist fees


--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

 

[Pete Biggs]

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Simon Brooke <[email protected]>:
>> As Ben says, half the pro peloton is using Campagnolo 10 speed chain
>> - just the same chain you can buy. They're putting much more power
>> through their transmissions than I can, and, I suspect, more than
>> you can.
>
> Power, yes, but force? Until you get to pulling up on the bars (which
> admittedly they do), the force one puts through the chain is just a
> matter of chainring size and available lard.

In a sprint, they pull up on the bars to an extreme degree, barely retaining
control of the bike while driving it to 40 mph+ on the flat as they put in
100% effort. If a chain was too weak for lardy arses, I think it would be
too weak for the pro sprinters too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swvtLrkCW08 (featuring chains not failing)

~PB

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting Pete Biggs <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Power, yes, but force? Until you get to pulling up on the bars (which
>>admittedly they do), the force one puts through the chain is just a
>>matter of chainring size and available lard.
>In a sprint, they pull up on the bars to an extreme degree,

Extreme compared to ordinary cyclists? Yes. But as a proportion of their
body weight? Even the strongest sprinters have tiny arm muscles compared
to their leg muscles.

I'd rather have said "if you can't break chains on a tandem, you can't
break them solo". I'll bet _two_ lardy blokes exert more force than one
pro sprinter, pulling up or no.

However the only place I _have_ broken a chain in the last many years
was... on a tandem.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Oil is for sissies
Today is First Epithumia, April - a weekend.

 

[Pete Biggs]

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Pete Biggs
> <[email protected]>:
>> David Damerell wrote:
>>> Power, yes, but force? Until you get to pulling up on the bars
>>> (which admittedly they do), the force one puts through the chain is
>>> just a matter of chainring size and available lard.
>> In a sprint, they pull up on the bars to an extreme degree,
>
> Extreme compared to ordinary cyclists? Yes. But as a proportion of
> their body weight? Even the strongest sprinters have tiny arm muscles
> compared to their leg muscles.

Surely the leg muscles have something to do with the force on the chain as
well?

> I'd rather have said "if you can't break chains on a tandem, you can't
> break them solo". I'll bet _two_ lardy blokes exert more force than
> one pro sprinter, pulling up or no.
>
> However the only place I _have_ broken a chain in the last many years
> was... on a tandem.

The OP didn't mention tandems.

~PB

 

[Ben C]

On 2008-03-31, Pete Biggs <[email protected]> wrote:
> David Damerell wrote:
>> Quoting Pete Biggs
>> <[email protected]>:
>>> David Damerell wrote:
>>>> Power, yes, but force? Until you get to pulling up on the bars
>>>> (which admittedly they do), the force one puts through the chain is
>>>> just a matter of chainring size and available lard.
>>> In a sprint, they pull up on the bars to an extreme degree,
>>
>> Extreme compared to ordinary cyclists? Yes. But as a proportion of
>> their body weight? Even the strongest sprinters have tiny arm muscles
>> compared to their leg muscles.
>
> Surely the leg muscles have something to do with the force on the chain as
> well?

You still can't put more force on the crank than your own weight plus
whatever you can pull up on the bars with.

As was pointed out, you will get also get more force on the chain if you
have a small chainring, but it's fat people who have small chainrings
making matters worse.

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting Pete Biggs <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Quoting Pete Biggs
>>>In a sprint, they pull up on the bars to an extreme degree,
>>Extreme compared to ordinary cyclists? Yes. But as a proportion of
>>their body weight? Even the strongest sprinters have tiny arm muscles
>>compared to their leg muscles.
>Surely the leg muscles have something to do with the force on the chain as
>well?

That's not very coherent. My point is that the leg muscles exert the total
force which is (body weight) + (arm force). If the legs are much bigger
than the arms, that suggests (body weight) is large compared to (arm
force).

>>However the only place I _have_ broken a chain in the last many years
>>was... on a tandem.
>The OP didn't mention tandems.

Yes, I _know_. My point was that they are a much better X in "if X can't
break a chain, neither can you".
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Oil is for sissies
Today is First Epithumia, April - a weekend.

 

[The Luggage]

On 31 Mar, 15:52, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> You still can't put more force on the crank than your own weight plus
> whatever you can pull up on the bars with.

<mode = "panto">
Oh yes you can
</mode>

If you're clipped in, you can pull up on the pedals as well as pushing
down.

TL

 

[The Luggage]

On 31 Mar, 15:31, David Damerell <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Quoting  Pete Biggs <[email protected]>:
>
> >David Damerell wrote:
> >>Power, yes, but force? Until you get to pulling up on the bars (which
> >>admittedly they do), the force one puts through the chain is just a
> >>matter of chainring size and available lard.
> >In a sprint, they pull up on the bars to an extreme degree,
>
> Extreme compared to ordinary cyclists? Yes. But as a proportion of their
> body weight? Even the strongest sprinters have tiny arm muscles compared
> to their leg muscles.

That's irrelevant on two grounds - you don't need huge arm muscles to
suppport more than your body weight for the few 10s of seconds of a
sprint. You do need hugh leg muscles to power you through a 200km TdF
stage. Also, if your elbows are straight, you need virtually no
muscles to transmit the force from your back to the bars.

And as I commented to Ben elsewhere in this thread, sprinters will be
very firmly clipped in, and will put a rather large upwards force on
one pedal as well as the downwards force on the other.

> I'd rather have said "if you can't break chains on a tandem, you can't
> break them solo". I'll bet _two_ lardy blokes exert more force than one
> pro sprinter, pulling up or no.

but you're unlikely to get two lardy tandemmers honking out of the
saddle, each putting their full weight on one pedal in a low gear,
which isprobably what you'd need to get the same sort of force a
sprinter will put in while accelerating in a sprint finish.

I can't say which is likely to be the larger force - they may be
similar in magnitude. The tandemmers have weight and low gearing, but
won't use their full weight on the pedals. The sprinter will put more
than his/her body weight onto a pedal, but will be in a much higher
gear.

TL

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting The Luggage <[email protected]>:
>On 31 Mar, 15:31, David Damerell <[email protected]>
>>I'd rather have said "if you can't break chains on a tandem, you can't
>>break them solo". I'll bet _two_ lardy blokes exert more force than one
>>pro sprinter, pulling up or no.
>but you're unlikely to get two lardy tandemmers honking out of the
>saddle, each putting their full weight on one pedal in a low gear,

Aren't you? Why not? It's perfectly straighforward.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is First Olethros, April - a weekend.

 

[Ben C]

On 2008-04-01, The Luggage <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 31 Mar, 15:52, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> You still can't put more force on the crank than your own weight plus
>> whatever you can pull up on the bars with.
>
><mode = "panto">
> Oh yes you can
></mode>
>
> If you're clipped in, you can pull up on the pedals as well as pushing
> down.

Good point, although I doubt they do pull up with a great deal of force
in practice. The up-muscles aren't nearly as strong as the down ones.

 

[Nick]

Ben C wrote:

> You still can't put more force on the crank than your own weight plus
> whatever you can pull up on the bars with.
>

Of course you can. Try jumping up while standing on a bathroom scales.