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[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> John Riley wrote:
> >
> > Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>... [...]
> > > Without US television and radio "news" organizations being cheerleaders for attacking Iraq, I
> > > wonder how much support there would be from the US public?
> >
> > And I wonder how long people will support it when they figure out that none of these cities will
> > ever really be secure:
> >
> http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Ar-
> ticle&cid=1035779834869&call_pageid=970599109774
>
> Josef Stalin was more brutal and repressive of the Russian people than Saddam Hussein has been to
> the Iraqi people. Yet when Germany invaded the Soviet Union, millions of Russians willingly fought
> (and millions died) for "Mother Russia".
>
> Should we be surprised if the Iraqi people do the same to expel foreign invaders from a nation
> with a radically different culture than theirs which has a leader who is widely believed in Iraq
> to be on a religious/imperial crusade of conquest?
>
> Tom Sherman - Curmudgeon Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

The Russian people initially welcomed the Nazi invaders and saw them as their liberators. It was
only when the Nazis acted more brutal and repressive than Stalin that genuine national resistance
set in. Do you think that we Americans are going to act like Nazis in Iraq? Culture has nothing to
do with it. I assume that the Iraqi people want to be free of their tyrant the same as I would if I
were in their situation. But maybe not you. You would leave them to their fate because above all you
are against war no matter what.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

MLB <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
Right wingers support war and spending HUGE sums of money on
> the military to prop up the economy. What part of that don't you understand?

Right wingers support war and spending HUGE sums of money on the military in order to protect us
from foreign enemies. What part of that don't you understand?

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> MLB wrote:
> >
> > I'd just like to put them [Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney] in some fatigues, hand them their rifle,
> > and point to their spot on the front > line.
>
> I would prefer to send them to clean up "collateral damage", i.e. picking up the burned and bloody
> body parts of innocent children, women, and men who are killed in unnecessary wars.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> How about a "necessary war" like the one we are presently engaged in
or is there no such thing as a necessary war? That our national leaders should experience war
first hand is a ridiculous notion when there are plenty of able bodied young men more than
willing to defend this country against its enemies. But if you want to bleed for "innocent
children, women and men " how about doing a little bleeding for the truly innocent men, women and
children who are murdered in Israel every day by insane Palestinian suicide-murderers, or is that
too selective for you.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Scott]

[email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in message
> > How about a "necessary war" like the one we are presently engaged in
> or is there no such thing as a necessary war? That our national leaders should experience war
> first hand is a ridiculous notion when there are plenty of able bodied young men more than
> willing to defend this country against its enemies. But if you want to bleed for "innocent
> children, women and men " how about doing a little bleeding for the truly innocent men, women and
> children who are murdered in Israel every day by insane Palestinian suicide-murderers, or is that
> too selective for you.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Innocent Palestinians dying, too. Or is that too selective for you?

Scott

 

[Robert Siegel]

Never forget: in the end it's always the Jews who are at fault.

It is never the fault of the totalitarian butchers who rule the Arab states and never the fault
of the religious maniacs who lead the Muslims. It's never the fault of the obscenely oil-rich
Arabs who have extracted thousands of billions of dollars from the West and have spent virtually
nothing to help the Palestinian Arabs, And it is never the fault of the Palestinians who have
been left to populate themselves into huge numbers, far in excess of those actually were
displaced by the 1947 war.

Always it is the fault of 5.5 million Jews living in a tiny country the size of the District of
Columbia, surrounded by 265 million Arabs living on a huge land mass.

Shame on the Jews for surviving the German murder camps and 1000 years of European brutality.
Perhaps we even will survive your ignorance and bigotry.

--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in message
> > > How about a "necessary war" like the one we are presently engaged in
> > or is there no such thing as a necessary war? That our national leaders should experience war
> > first hand is a ridiculous notion when there are plenty of able bodied young men more than
> > willing to defend this country against its enemies. But if you want to bleed for "innocent
> > children, women and men " how about doing a little bleeding for the truly innocent men, women
> > and children who are murdered in Israel every day by insane Palestinian suicide-murderers, or is
> > that too selective for you.
> >
> > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>
> Innocent Palestinians dying, too. Or is that too selective for you?
>
> Scott

 

[Mlb]

[email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in news:[email protected]:

> MLB <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>>
> Right wingers support war and spending HUGE sums of money on
>> the military to prop up the economy. What part of that don't you understand?
>
> Right wingers support war and spending HUGE sums of money on the military in order to protect us
> from foreign enemies. What part of that don't you understand?
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Maybe the rest of us aren't quite as paranoid as the right.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> How about a "necessary war" like the one we are presently engaged in or is there no such thing as
> a necessary war?

Mr. Dolan,

There are criteria for a "Just War" [1], however the US/UK invasion of Iraq does not meet
these criteria.

[1] < http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/j/justwar.htm >

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.
- Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Robert Siegel wrote:
>
> Never forget: in the end it's always the Jews who are at fault.
>
> It is never the fault of the totalitarian butchers who rule the Arab states and never the fault
> of the religious maniacs who lead the Muslims. It's never the fault of the obscenely oil-rich
> Arabs who have extracted thousands of billions of dollars from the West and have spent virtually
> nothing to help the Palestinian Arabs, And it is never the fault of the Palestinians who have
> been left to populate themselves into huge numbers, far in excess of those actually were
> displaced by the 1947 war.
>
> Always it is the fault of 5.5 million Jews living in a tiny country the size of the District of
> Columbia, surrounded by 265 million Arabs living on a huge land mass.
>
> Shame on the Jews for surviving the German murder camps and 1000 years of European brutality.
> Perhaps we even will survive your ignorance and bigotry.

Equating criticism of Likud and their allies who wish to create a "Greater Israel" with criticism of
all Jews is a tactic used by those who wish to defend the indefensible, so they resort to personal
attacks against those who oppose the policies of the Israeli hard right instead. The West Bank and
Gaza strip were not populated by Jews (for the most part) nor part of Israel at its creation in
1948. Unless you accept the principle of territorial gain by conquest, Israel has no legal or moral
right to build settlements for Israeli Jews in the occupied territories.

It also ignores the fact that many Jews (including a substantial portion of the Jewish population of
Israel) support the creation of a real Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza strip in return
for recognition of Israel by all the Arab States (a principle which the Arab League has adopted). Or
are all of these people "self-hating Jews"?

The Muslims do not have a monopoly on religious fanaticism - there are plenty of religious fanatics
among the followers of the other two Abrahamic religions.

The fact that 5 or 6 million Jews were killed during the Nazi genocide, and millions more displaced
does not justify a single immoral act by Jews anywhere against anyone.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Peace is not made with friends. Peace is made with enemies. - Yitzhak Rabin

 

[Robert Siegel]

It may not meet YOUR criteria.

It clearly would have met Saddam Hussein's criteria had the shoe been on the other foot. Except he
would have gassed us first and talked to the UN later ... after getting French and US leftists'
approval for his murders.

--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > How about a "necessary war" like the one we are presently engaged in or is there no such thing
> > as a necessary war?
>
> Mr. Dolan,
>
> There are criteria for a "Just War" [1], however the US/UK invasion of Iraq does not meet these
> criteria.
>
> [1] < http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/j/justwar.htm >
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.
> - Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Robert Siegel]

I agree that there are mindless religious fanatics in Israel and that provocative occupation by
Israelis of some (not all) of the so-called Palestinian territories is stupid. On the other hand,
one one hundredth of the Arab oil money and a modicum of compromise by Arafat and his fellow Hamas
murderers would have resolved this a long time ago. Even the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S., Prince
Bandar, has described Arafat's rejection of the peace accord two years ago as "a crime".

I do NOT include you, Tom, since your leftist-leaning bias is consistent and clear. However, many
Jew-hating bigots hide behind your kind of "logic" to support their hatred of Israel and their
unwavering support of Arab murderers and despots.

--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Robert Siegel wrote:
> >
> > Never forget: in the end it's always the Jews who are at fault.
> >
> > It is never the fault of the totalitarian butchers who rule the Arab
states
> > and never the fault of the religious maniacs who lead the Muslims. It's never the fault of the
> > obscenely oil-rich Arabs who have extracted
thousands
> > of billions of dollars from the West and have spent virtually nothing to help the Palestinian
> > Arabs, And it is never the fault of the
Palestinians
> > who have been left to populate themselves into huge numbers, far in
excess
> > of those actually were displaced by the 1947 war.
> >
> > Always it is the fault of 5.5 million Jews living in a tiny country the size of the District of
> > Columbia, surrounded by 265 million Arabs living
on
> > a huge land mass.
> >
> > Shame on the Jews for surviving the German murder camps and 1000 years
of
> > European brutality. Perhaps we even will survive your ignorance and bigotry.
>
> Equating criticism of Likud and their allies who wish to create a "Greater Israel" with criticism
> of all Jews is a tactic used by those who wish to defend the indefensible, so they resort to
> personal attacks against those who oppose the policies of the Israeli hard right instead. The West
> Bank and Gaza strip were not populated by Jews (for the most part) nor part of Israel at its
> creation in 1948. Unless you accept the principle of territorial gain by conquest, Israel has no
> legal or moral right to build settlements for Israeli Jews in the occupied territories.
>
> It also ignores the fact that many Jews (including a substantial portion of the Jewish population
> of Israel) support the creation of a real Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza strip in
> return for recognition of Israel by all the Arab States (a principle which the Arab League has
> adopted). Or are all of these people "self-hating Jews"?
>
> The Muslims do not have a monopoly on religious fanaticism - there are plenty of religious
> fanatics among the followers of the other two Abrahamic religions.
>
> The fact that 5 or 6 million Jews were killed during the Nazi genocide, and millions more
> displaced does not justify a single immoral act by Jews anywhere against anyone.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> Peace is not made with friends. Peace is made with enemies. - Yitzhak Rabin

 

[Stratrider]

Ed, you make a good point. Like Tom, I too struggle with the "necessity" of this war. But I also
struggle with the prospect of doing nothing. I am certain there were many in the US that struggled
with the "necessity" of the US's involvement in WWII (at least between 1939 and 1941). Yet I sit
here typing as a benefactor of those who committed us to that war. So as for this war, I am trying
to remain open to the possibility that the outcome of this war will make the world a safer place.

Jim Reilly Reading, PA

 

[Tom Sherman]

Robert Siegel wrote:
>
> It [US/UK invasion of Iraq] may not meet YOUR [just war] criteria.
>
> It clearly would have met Saddam Hussein's criteria had the shoe been on the other foot. Except he
> would have gassed us first and talked to the UN later ... after getting French and US leftists'
> approval for his murders.

The second statement seems to imply either that Bush and Blair have the same moral standards as
Saddam Hussein has, or that Hussein being in the wrong also justifies Bush and Blair being in
the wrong.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear. -
Edmund Burke

 

[Joshua Goldberg]

*Did someone here mention Self-Hating Jews and I was not invited to comment?

*Actually I don't hate myself, over the years I have got to really like myself. I'm just not sure I
would want to buy myself flowers and a box of chocolates and invite myself out on a date. My luck
the date would go really well and I'd get to 2nd base and then lose my phone number and there would
never be another date.

"Robert Siegel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I agree that there are mindless religious fanatics in Israel and that provocative occupation by
> Israelis of some (not all) of the so-called Palestinian territories is stupid. On the other hand,
> one one hundredth
of
> the Arab oil money and a modicum of compromise by Arafat and his fellow Hamas murderers would have
> resolved this a long time ago. Even the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S., Prince Bandar, has described
> Arafat's rejection of the peace accord two years ago as "a crime".
>
> I do NOT include you, Tom, since your leftist-leaning bias is consistent
and
> clear. However, many Jew-hating bigots hide behind your kind of "logic" to
support
> their hatred of Israel and their unwavering support of Arab murderers and despots.
>
> --
> Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Robert Siegel wrote:
> > >
> > > Never forget: in the end it's always the Jews who are at fault.
> > >
> > > It is never the fault of the totalitarian butchers who rule the Arab
> states
> > > and never the fault of the religious maniacs who lead the Muslims.
It's
> > > never the fault of the obscenely oil-rich Arabs who have extracted
> thousands
> > > of billions of dollars from the West and have spent virtually nothing
to
> > > help the Palestinian Arabs, And it is never the fault of the
> Palestinians
> > > who have been left to populate themselves into huge numbers, far in
> excess
> > > of those actually were displaced by the 1947 war.
> > >
> > > Always it is the fault of 5.5 million Jews living in a tiny country
the
> > > size of the District of Columbia, surrounded by 265 million Arabs
living
> on
> > > a huge land mass.
> > >
> > > Shame on the Jews for surviving the German murder camps and 1000 years
> of
> > > European brutality. Perhaps we even will survive your ignorance and bigotry.
> >
> > Equating criticism of Likud and their allies who wish to create a "Greater Israel" with
> > criticism of all Jews is a tactic used by those who wish to defend the indefensible, so they
> > resort to personal attacks against those who oppose the policies of the Israeli hard right
> > instead. The West Bank and Gaza strip were not populated by Jews (for the most part) nor part of
> > Israel at its creation in 1948. Unless you accept the principle of territorial gain by conquest,
> > Israel has no legal or moral right to build settlements for Israeli Jews in the occupied
> > territories.
> >
> > It also ignores the fact that many Jews (including a substantial portion of the Jewish
> > population of Israel) support the creation of a real Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza
> > strip in return for recognition of Israel by all the Arab States (a principle which the Arab
> > League has adopted). Or are all of these people "self-hating Jews"?
> >
> > The Muslims do not have a monopoly on religious fanaticism - there are plenty of religious
> > fanatics among the followers of the other two Abrahamic religions.
> >
> > The fact that 5 or 6 million Jews were killed during the Nazi genocide, and millions more
> > displaced does not justify a single immoral act by Jews anywhere against anyone.
> >
> > Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
> >
> > Peace is not made with friends. Peace is made with enemies. - Yitzhak Rabin

 

[Stratrider]

Tom, I would have to agree that the US involvement in this war does not meet the "just war" criterea
outlined by Dr. Moseley, clearly a philosophy professor at the University of Tenessee - Martin. I am
betting the President and the military failed to review their war plan with Dr. Moseley.

Jim Reilly Reading, PA

 

[Edward Dolan]

[email protected] (stratrider) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Tom, I would have to agree that the US involvement in this war does not meet the "just war"
> criterea outlined by Dr. Moseley, clearly a philosophy professor at the University of Tenessee -
> Martin. I am betting the President and the military failed to review their war plan with Dr.
> Moseley.
>
> Jim Reilly Reading, PA

Mr. Reilly,

Never mind Mr. Sherman's references as he has selected them to agree with what he thinks. The main
thing that has happened is the advent of weapons of mass destruction, something that the left just
can not yet grasp. It will take an atom bomb going off somewhere in this country ( I hope the Quad
Cities - Illinois Side) before they wake up. If you would like to read a more sensible document for
a just war here is a reference to it:

http://www.tfp.org/what_we_do/index/just_war.htm

It was originally published in the Washington Times, March 27, 2003.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

MLB <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> > MLB <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >>
> Right wingers support war and spending HUGE sums of money on
> >> the military to prop up the economy. What part of that don't you understand?
> >
> > Right wingers support war and spending HUGE sums of money on the military in order to protect us
> > from foreign enemies. What part of that don't you understand?
> >
> > Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>
> Maybe the rest of us aren't quite as paranoid as the right.

Ever hear of the World Trade Center and what happened to it? Funny you should think I am of the
right. I on on the right on some issues and on the left on other issues. It all depends on the
issues. Unlike some of you, I am not committed to a rigid ideology of either the right or the left.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
> ... It will take an atom bomb going off somewhere in this country ( I hope the Quad Cities -
> Illinois Side) before they wake up....

Is it not considered anti-American, not to mention possibly treasonable (for someone living in the
U.S.) to advocate the use of nuclear weapons on U.S. cities and population?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

I criticize America because I love her. I want her to stand as a moral example to the world. -
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> Ever hear of the World Trade Center and what happened to it?....

Yes, a group of terrorists, mostly Saudi Arabian but none from Iraq or with any proven connection to
the Iraqi government, committed the criminal act of hijacking four airliners, two of which were
flown by the terrorists into the World Trade Center towers.

How the immense US Military would have prevented this (other than shooting down every hijacked
airliner) is not known.

The aggressive US/UK invasion of Iraq is a recruiting call for the terrorist organizations that
would carry out further attacks against the US, and as such is welcomed by Osama bin Laden and his
compatriots. This war is making the US less, not more, secure.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and
every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and
refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war
is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque
self-deception. - Mark Twain

 

[Mlb]

> Mr. Reilly,
>
> Never mind Mr. Sherman's references as he has selected them to agree with what he thinks.
>

Pot - Kettle.............

 

[Mlb]

> on the left on other issues. It all depends on the issues. Unlike some of you, I am not committed
> to a rigid ideology of either the right or the left.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>

Well you'll just have to excuse us since all we've seen is some of the MOST right wing **** possible
oozing out of you.

(hate to be the first to point this out to you (apparently) but Iraq DIDN"T bomb the World Trade
Center!!!!!!!!!!!)

((check it out, it's TRUE))