New crankset causing chain and derailleur problems!!!

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by rh09, Oct 28, 2013.

  1. rh09

    rh09 New Member

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    I recently replaced my stock triple crankset with a new Shimano 105 triple crankset. I now have the problem of my chain constantly rubbing on the front derailleur on middle and outer rings. If i adjust the outer limit the derailleur will then hit my crank arm. What do I need to do to fix this problem?
     
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  2. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    Have you checked to make sure your cage is mounted to be parallel to your chainrings?
     
  3. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Did you happen to change EITHER your chain AND/OR front derailleur, too?!?
     
  4. rh09

    rh09 New Member

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    Yes my cage is parrellel to the chainring a and properly spaced. No I did not change my chain or derailleur. I was thinking that is what I need to do but not sure. Wanted opinions before I bought more parts.
     
  5. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Presuming that you did not have a problem before installing the new crankset & because you did NOT change the chain or front derailleur, if 'I' were in your immediate situation then I would (for the moment) consider removing the new crankset and re-installing the old one ...

    THAT presumes that you ALREADY (?) made adjustments to Front Derailleur's INNER stop ... because 'I' would want to carefully measure the distance which the the chainrings are offset from the frame ... particularly, the Granny ...

    You may as well measure the chainring offset of the new crank before you remove it, BTW, because you will eventually want to know if there is a difference and/or what it might be.

    If there is a difference, then I would want to know how much it is & possibly why ...

    And then, make adjustments to the Front Derailleur, accordingly.

    FYI. If you continue to have a problem, then the fastest/simplest & least expensive (!!!) remedy is to simply install a set of Campagnolo shifters ...
     
  6. rh09

    rh09 New Member

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    Thanks I will look at that. Was thinking of getting a new chain and derailleur to see if that helps.
     
  7. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    Erm, what kind of Shimano 105 crankset are you now using, 5500, 5600, 5700? And what kind of stock crankset did this replace? And what did you use for a bottom bracket and what are you using now? And while we're at it, what are the chain, front derailleur, and shift levers? Trying to fix something without knowing what it is is beyond the powers of most of us.
     
  8. rh09

    rh09 New Member

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    It is what ever comes stock on a GMC denali road bike (i know its cheap). Shimano SIS derailleur and Shimano Revo shifters is all i know. the crankset had a cup and cone bottom bracket but brand unknown and same with the crankset all i see is shke pro-170 and it is a triple. replaced the crank and bottom bracket with ultegra hollowtech bottom bracket and 105 5703 crankset. hope this helps
     
  9. rh09

    rh09 New Member

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    Just found this info:

    Chain: KMC Z 51
    Crankset: Prowheel Alloy 335P6 28X38X48 170mm
    Front Derailleur: Shimano FD-TZ 31 Index
    Rear Derailleur: Shimano RD-TZ30GS 7SPD
    Shifters: Shimano Revo SIS L2/R7
     
  10. Volnix

    Volnix Well-Known Member

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    Shimano SIS??? Did you "ballooned" that thing from the "Titanic" ? [​IMG] I had a purple Shimano SIS bike that was purple until it turned pink. I was 12 when it turned pink... That rear deraileur must be oooold!!! [​IMG] (and Shimano stuff are not exactly "antiques"... truth to be told... [​IMG])

    Prowheel is Chinese... My recently flipped commuter had a Prowheel crank for a nexus 7 Shimano hub... Pretty indestructible I would say... Pretty Chinese and nothing special too... I was thinking of changing it for a Shimano nexus crank but those were of smaller diameter. I was using the full 7 speeds but if I was to go to something with a lower speed-revs ratio I would probably go for a smaller sprocket on the hub...

    Good luck [​IMG]
     
  11. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    Ah, there's usually a simple explanation, and here it is. You're using 7-speed shifters and a 7-speed chain with crankset designed for narrow 10-speed chains. The chain rings and the distance between them are narrower, so the indexing on your shift lever is overshooting the ring it's aiming for.

    Hate to say it, but proper shifting with this crank requires Shimano 3x10-speed shifters, Shimano 3x10 front and rear derailleurs, a 10-speed chain, a 10-speed cassette, and a rear wheel that will work with this cassette.

    alfeng will soon make his case for using Campagnolo Ergo levers (bless his soul), and this time I promise not to argue with him. Someone might even make a case for full Campagnolo 10-speed with your 5700 crankset, but trust me, it sucks. Others will make a case for various mixes of 7-, 8-, 9-, and 10-speed componentry, and I will just say that I tried some of them, under duress, and they don't work. 5700 cranks absolutely require a 10-speed chain and a Shimano 10-speed front derailleur, and the front derailleur must be of the same generation as the front shifter. Well, they might work with SRAM.
     
  12. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    UMmmm ... The chainrings MAY-or-MAY-NOT be the problem ... particularly because 105 chainrings are pretty indifferently ramped-and-pinned (IMO) ...
    • FWIW, the problem could possibly be from NOT correctly adjusting the Front Derailleur's height ... particularly if the original Crankset's outer Chainring had fewer teeth than the outer Chainring on the new Crankset
    BTW. I already made a gentle suggestion about using Campagnolo shifters at the end of my earlier post (above) ... BTW2. AFAIK, there is a slight misunderstanding regarding the distance between the chainrings on various "speed" Shimano Cranksets ...
    • in fact, I believe that the CENTERLINES of the teeth on the Chainrings are the same distance of the various cranks, but Shimano's 9-and-10-and-11-speed Chainrings have thicker profiling from which the ramping & pinning is carved (not so much 'carving' on the 105-and-below chainrings). THAT is not true of Campagnolo Chainrings because Campagnolo cheaped-out by milling away a fraction of a millimeter to allow the outer Chainring to sit closer to the inner Chainring rather than spending the money to re-spec the Chainrings.
    BTW3. A set of Campagnolo shifters would be 'the fastest/simplest & least expensive (!!!) remedy' because the shifters would cost LESS THAN $150 (closer to $130) on eBay and the only other addition might be some additional cable housing + cables. AFAIK, the SIS rear derailleurs are STI compatible ... if not, then that's another $30-$200 (again, I think a used Shimano XT-750 rear derailleur in GOOD condition sells for about $30 +/- on eBay) ... ALL other upgrade alternatives will cost much more ...
    • Why pay more?

    PLUS, a pair of Campagnolo shifters will allow a GREAT DEAL of future "upward mobility" to 9-and-10 speed drivetrains (even 11-speed if one chooses the 11-speed versions of their shifters).
     
  13. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    Yup, the Campy front shifter should work because it's non-indexed.

    If it were my bike, though, I'd give up on the 5703 crankset and bottom bracket because it's the cause of the problem and it's total overkill for the application. The rest of the system isn't making use of that wonderful Hollowtech technology. I'd replace it with a decent inexpensive 3x8 crank that mates to a square-taper bottom bracket, perhaps even the same one you discarded to use 105.
     
  14. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    There really shouldn't be a difference in the chainring spacing between an 8-speed Triple & the spacing on the chainrings on 10-speed Triple crankset ...

    So, it really is probably an adjustment-of-the-front-derailleur issue AND ensuring the cabling is not the problem.

    BTW. I think that the suggestion of buying ANOTHER crankset + BB will be money poorly spent ... the 5703 crank is already on the bike, so it's just a matter of determining why the current front derailleur won't shift.

    BTW2. As far as calling the Hollowtech technology "wonderful" ... well, I like it well enough, but I'm not prepared to do cartwheels over it!

    BTW3. I'm all for refitting an(y) existing frame with better parts BECAUSE if-and/or-when the time comes, the majority of the components can often be transferred if some thought goes into the choice of components + the choice of the subsequent frame ...

    On the other side of the coin, because parts CAN be transferred, I am now planning on moving some existing components which I have to an older, 70s vintage frame which has previously been the recipient of "spare" parts when it was devolved to a Single Speed ...

    I like how the frame rides AND obviously I already have it, so why not?
    [​IMG]

    I will just need to add a set of Campagnolo shifters + an inner chainring + some derailleurs (Shimano, but maybe I'll make it an all-Campagnolo bike by using Campagnolo derailleurs) + an appropriate rear wheel + a new chain AND it will be good-to-go ...

    It will probably take as long to unwrap & re-wrap the handlebar tape as it will to install the rest of the parts unless I opt to change the crank from the current square taper Chorus crankset to an Ultra Torque (!?!) crankset.

    BTW4. I would think that if YOU (oldbobcat) really gave the matter some more thought (regardless of whether one prefers SRAM or Shimano for whatever reason) that YOU would suggest Campagnolo shifters as an option to someone who comes into the shop which you work in who is looking to upgrade their 8-speed (or, less) bike because it will cost them less ... much less EVEN IF a DIY upgrade doesn't seem feasible to them ... they will appreciate it ... and, if-and-when the time comes for a fancy-schmancy new bike, they will hopefully return to your shop because they will already know that you are "an honest broker" who will help them to get the best future bike for their money rather than being someone looking to make a quick "one time" transaction.

    I think it is worth repeating that a set of Campagnolo shifters would be 'the fastest/simplest & least expensive (!!!) remedy' because the shifters would cost LESS THAN $150 (closer to $130) on eBay and the only other addition might be some additional cable housing + cables ... PLUS (?) a T25 or 5mm wrench which has a 4" shaft to install the shfiters + a cable cutter + Flat File to clean the burrs on the housing (i.e., tools AS NEEDED).
     
  15. dhk2

    dhk2 Active Member

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    I'm confused. Is there in fact a significant difference in spacing between the 7-speed chainrings that the OPs bike had and the 105 10-speed chainrings, such that a 7-sp lever couldn't correctly index shift a 10-sp setup?

    OBC says yes, that this is plain and simple the cause of the problem, while alfeng seems to be saying no, that's not the case, must be something else causing the problem.

    I couldn't find any dimensions on the Shimano website, or via a quick online search. Would like to just find the dimensions before coming to my own conclusions.
     
  16. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    It is "not" just an adjustment and cabling issue, because 10-speed chains and chain rings are narrower than 7- and 8-speed chains, and 10-speed front derailleur cages are narrower than those made for 7-speed. There is excessive sideways movement of the wide chain on narrow rings that results in "dwell," movement of the chain before it hits the edge of the teeth and can be moved to the next ring. And a 10-speed derailleur with a 7-speed chain gives so little clearance that even moderate cross-chaining results rub that can't be trimmed out. Which is why I went along with simply forgetting about front indexing and using a Campy lever with the existing front derailleur, that is at least made to function with the chain being used. And actually, because of the sideways movement of the chain and the proximity of the 10-speed crank to the big ring, it might still be impossible to push the chain up to the big ring without driving the derailleur into the crank.

    I tried using a Shimano 9-speed derailleur and 9-speed cranks, on separate occasions. They sucked, and no amount of cable fiddling, toe adjustment, height adjustment, and other forms of "english" was going to change this.
     
  17. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    The OP's chain MAY be too "fat" for convenient derailleur adjustment if the tooth count has changed on the outer chainring prior to subsequent adjustments & the front derailleur's height above the outer chainring was not noted OR if the stops were changed & the OP doesn't have a point of reference for the needed subsequent adjustment ...

    FWIW. I have mentioned THIS (following) observation which I have made before which I believe IS anecdotally valid based on the additional remarks of others (i.e., others + YOU) ...
    YOU SHOULD NOT MIS-MATCH CHAINS with SHIMANO DRIVETRAINS For ideal indexed shifting, that means that you should only use 8-speed Shimano chains with 8-speed Shimano drivetrains, 9-speed Shimano chains with 9-speed Shimano drivetrains, 10-speed Shimano chains with 10-speed Shimano drivetrains, and (presumably) 11-speed Shimano chains with 11-speed Shimano drivetrains.

    In other words, if someone who is not using Campagnolo shifters opts for a chain which is not sold under the same brand, then shifting may be "okay" with a Double, but the incremental difference is often magnified enough when three chainrings need to be traversed by indexed shifting that it become unacceptable ...

    Apparently, I cannot recommend it enough that a person should ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTIONS with an indexed, all-Shimano drivetrain unless they have used a micrometer to ensure that the width of the non-Shimano chain is exactly the same ...

    THAT is probably true for SRAM drivetrains, too, but a potential problem may rarely manifest itself because SRAM has chosen to avoid the problem which indexing introduces by only having "Double" (and now, a "not" any need to shift) chainring configurations + I think that there has been a predominant trend for people to opt for SRAM chains because of the perceived user advantage of its Powerlink.

    I do not believe that ANY alternate front derailleurs can be used with SRAM shifters ...

    Alternate front derailleurs can definitely NOT be used with indexed Shimano STI Road shifters EXCEPT when a Triple-capable shifter is being used with a Double crankset.

    As I stated before, I belatedly figured out that I do not need to use 10-speed Campagnolo chains with 10-speed Campagnolo drivetrains and that I could effectively use a 9-speed Shimano chain with a 10-speed Campagnolo Cassette ... and, when using Campagnolo shifters, it seems to be "okay" to use a 9-speed Shimano chain with a 10-speed Shimano Cassette. too.

    Why pay more?

    Why deal with Campagnolo's 10-speed chain tool?

    Now, as far as how thick chainrings are ... I believe that there may be a mis-communication ...
    I do NOT know what is going on in SRAM-world, but in the rest of the world while there may be a slight variance in how thick the teeth are on different chainrings which use 3/32" chains, the non-tooth portion (which is what the chain interacts with before meshing) of a 5-speed chainring is thinner than an 8-speed chainring (just to use an obvious example) ...
    • an 8-speed chainring is thinner than a 9-speed chainring (i.e., the 8-speed chainring will have flatter "ramping")
    • a 9-speed chainring is incrementally thinner than a 10-speed chainring ...

    As I have noted before, rather than toss all of the chainring "blanks" which Campangolo must have had in their warehouse OR alternatively to need to reset their CNC (?) OR forging-or-stamping machinery, someone decided it would be just as expedient to machine ~0.5mm from the portion of the chainring's tabs which mate with the crankset's spider to accommodate the thinner chains.

    The earliest 10-speed Campagnolo chainrings were barely ramped!

    An early 10-speed Campagnolo chainring may possibly not be significantly thicker than a 7-speed Shimano chainring, if at all.

    That is, the thinner chains require thicker chainrings to compensate for (that is, to bridge) the natural gap which the tips of the spider's arms (AFAIK, a uniform dimension from crankset to crankset regardless of "brand") form onto which the mounting tongues of the chainrings attach.
    • and, an 11-speed (Shimano) chainring presumably has more robust ramping which will translates as a thicker (not thinner) chainring -- thick enough to allow implementation of Hollowtech technology on the chainring's non-tooth portion.
    BTW. I know that a comparatively "fat" 8-speed SRAM chain could-and/or-can be used with a 9-speed Ultegra FRONT derailleur & 9-speed FSA chainrings (a very momentary configuration) with Campagnolo shifters, but that configuration would subsequently need to be trimmed more often to avoid chain rub. If the OP's current chain is balking on the thicker 10-speed Shimano chainrings AND if incrementally raising the front derailleur by about 0.5mm-at-a-time until clean shifting is achieved doesn't eventually resolve the problem, then ... As I said earlier in this thread ... "the fastest/simplest & least expensive (!!!) remedy is to simply install a set of Campagnolo shifters ..."

    [​IMG]
     
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