New guy with 140ish FTP looking to hit 225 by May 2013

[ira41]

I decided to create a thread and track some progress as I try and go from an untrained 140ish FTP to 225 hopefully by May.
I was inspired by Tyson and figured if he put in the work and could do it, I can put in the work and do it.

I have already received some great advice and has helped me come to the conclusion doing the time crunched cyclist “new century program” probably won’t give me the volume and intensity I need. I will however continue the plan while I work on a better one.

Some background
I’m 41 married father of three girls
84kg
6'
I smoked a pack a day from age 17 to august 2008.
I commuted to work for two fair weather seasons, then stopped until September of this year roughly 3 year layoff.

Late September I bought a PowerTap and KK trainer to give me some motivation, Winters in Portland Oregon are wet so all of my riding is going to be indoors.

The whole 6-8 hours per week of training seemed very appealing with my schedule but I could do up to 12.
I am not training for a particular event rather to not get dropped by girls on cruiser bikes on my commute home and to be able to join a local club for group rides next spring.

I’m thinking as much as I suck now I need to be focusing on L4 and L2/3 rides for base and FTP.
If I do say 10 hours per week how much should I be in each level?
Also how often given my untrained state should I be retesting my FTP for new zones?

thanks,

Ira

 

[JibberJim]

Originally Posted by ira41 .
If I do say 10 hours per week how much should I be in each level?
Also how often given my untrained state should I be retesting my FTP for new zones?

Personally, at your level I wouldn't worry too much about structured plans at all - although it being winter and mentioning the KK I guess you'll have a lot of time on the turbo so doing something on it to motivate you to complete as many sessions usefully as possible is a good idea. Are winters in Portland really that bad - I didn't imagine it was much different from the UK with temps above freezing on lots of days so riding should be posible.

You almost certainly have huge gains to make as you imagine - you'd have to be desperately unlucky even before the smoking for 2w/kg to be your limit. I actually think you should look at including all intensities, there are some very quick gains to be had in the untrained from VO2max intervals, and getting them now will then make the L4 and L2/3 work more effective as it will be at a higher level.

Building up to as much as you can is what's important anyway.

BTW, are you sure there's no groups around that you could ride with already? Here in the UK we have CTC groups who you could certainly ride with (you'd likely be half the age of many people on the ride, but they're happy). And I think riding with other people is always a good idea.

 

[ira41]

Originally Posted by JibberJim .


Personally, at your level I wouldn't worry too much about structured plans at all - although it being winter and mentioning the KK I guess you'll have a lot of time on the turbo so doing something on it to motivate you to complete as many sessions usefully as possible is a good idea. Are winters in Portland really that bad - I didn't imagine it was much different from the UK with temps above freezing on lots of days so riding should be posible.

You almost certainly have huge gains to make as you imagine - you'd have to be desperately unlucky even before the smoking for 2w/kg to be your limit. I actually think you should look at including all intensities, there are some very quick gains to be had in the untrained from VO2max intervals, and getting them now will then make the L4 and L2/3 work more effective as it will be at a higher level.

Building up to as much as you can is what's important anyway.

BTW, are you sure there's no groups around that you could ride with already? Here in the UK we have CTC groups who you could certainly ride with (you'd likely be half the age of many people on the ride, but they're happy). And I think riding with other people is always a good idea.

I am somewhat of a numbers junkie and having a plan gives me motivation and targets to hit while on the trainer. Winters in Portland are not bad as far as cold goes they are just really wet and I'm not a fan of riding in rain. I also only have one bike and I figure all the time spent taking the bike off the trainer and swapping tires could be spent riding, I do get that at my fitness level just riding has gains to be had.

I have some friends in a local club, I am sure they would love to have me ride with them, but its really a matter of my own pride that I don't.

My goal is to get as much work in as I can between now and spring so I can hang a bit better on my commutes and group rides. At this point I think I am going to stick with the CTS plan I am doing but up the interval times to 12 min each from 8min and maybe cut out one rest day a week for more V02max work.

I have to say I love intervals, I thought I would hate them but I notice from one day to the next they are just a little bit easier. Last night I was supposed to do 3x8 L4 with 4 min Rest, I decided to increase them to 3x12 with 5 min rest and found the effort about the same as the 3x8s I did two days ago.


I am wondering a some things though, the CTS test had me do 2x8min with 10min rest between to determine my levels, which had me at 161watts, they also state that my ftp would be %10 less than that or around 145, I am doing most of my SS intervals at 142 watts. I know they mention in the book they want you setting levels on the higher number. but i'm wondering if I would get more benefit by doing say 20 minutes at %91 of 145 or 132 watts. vs 12 min at 142.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by ira41 .


....I am wondering a some things though, the CTS test had me do 2x8min with 10min rest between to determine my levels, which had me at 161watts, they also state that my ftp would be %10 less than that or around 145, I am doing most of my SS intervals at 142 watts. I know they mention in the book they want you setting levels on the higher number. but i'm wondering if I would get more benefit by doing say 20 minutes at %91 of 145 or 132 watts. vs 12 min at 142.

A lot of stuff wrapped up in that question, especially regarding the CTS 8 minute tests and what your FTP might be. But given the choice and where you are in your training I'd definitely go with the longer 20 minute efforts vs shorter slightly more intense efforts. If you have to back off all the way to 130-135 watts to get through 20 minute efforts or to get through the set of both efforts then do so, but don't be surprised if those numbers climb pretty quickly at the start as you learn what you're capable of and learn to focus and pace these longer sustained efforts.

But yes, especially at the start a focus on sustained efforts and simply riding regularly is your best bang for your buck. If you can ride outside some days then get out and explore a bit and do some longer rides, perhaps on the weekends but when you are inside doing trainer work focus on longer sustained efforts even if the power has to drop a bit to make that happen. The numbers will almost certainly rise over time so even if you have to drop down to 135 watts or so right now to finish without blowing up, it's very likely you'll be up in the 140 to 150 range or even higher for these sustained efforts as long as you stick to it and ride these at least a couple of days per week along with other riding that gets you on the bike five or so days per week.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[ira41]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

A lot of stuff wrapped up in that question, especially regarding the CTS 8 minute tests and what your FTP might be. But given the choice and where you are in your training I'd definitely go with the longer 20 minute efforts vs shorter slightly more intense efforts. If you have to back off all the way to 130-135 watts to get through 20 minute efforts or to get through the set of both efforts then do so, but don't be surprised if those numbers climb pretty quickly at the start as you learn what you're capable of and learn to focus and pace these longer sustained efforts.

But yes, especially at the start a focus on sustained efforts and simply riding regularly is your best bang for your buck. If you can ride outside some days then get out and explore a bit and do some longer rides, perhaps on the weekends but when you are inside doing trainer work focus on longer sustained efforts even if the power has to drop a bit to make that happen. The numbers will almost certainly rise over time so even if you have to drop down to 135 watts or so right now to finish without blowing up, it's very likely you'll be up in the 140 to 150 range or even higher for these sustained efforts as long as you stick to it and ride these at least a couple of days per week along with other riding that gets you on the bike five or so days per week.

Good luck,
-Dave

Thanks again Dave, Today is an easy day but I think ill try to do 20x2 at 130-135 whatever I can hold. But yeah in reading Tyson's thread it seemed the extra benefit from going say 96% vs 91% wasn't there especially is your doing more volume at the 91%.

What I'm thinking is replacing the CTS L4 intervals with a little lower wattage still 91% or over and not doing them at say 96% for less volume.

I'm going to Maui for a week Nov 15th and suspect that will be a good break and maybe I will retest my FTP when I get back using the 20x2, find some decent VO2max intervals. Everything I'm reading says the more volume I can get %91 or over the better for my FTP.

 

[ira41]

So I have decided to stick with the cts trainign plan im on but modify it a bit.

I cut out a rest day to add a session of L4
I modified the SS intervals to 2x20.
Changed one of the Endurance rides to temp.

So far its challenging and I find myself creeping up to 98% FTP on the 20 minute sets, I think I just like the gear cadence combo.

However I am wondering if I can ride that close to FTP without much issue if it makes sense to Retest it.

I have also lost some weight and now am about 82kg with a goal of 75kg

 

[tomw1974]

"Staying on the plan" and "modifying the plan" are not the same thing, especially when you are talking about removing rest days, changing the interval durations, and adding intervals to non-interval days.

Removing a rest day (and even worse, adding more intensity throughout) is not exactly the best idea for a plan that's already on the intense side. Your body needs that time to actually increase your fitness. Overtraining and burnout will set you back a lot further than you can ever imagine.

A complete week off is not the kind of rest you need. Your FTP when you get back will be all kinds of messed up from not riding at all. You will get a more accurate result if you get back on the bike for several days (or even a week) before you test again.

 

[gudujarlson]

Originally Posted by tomw1974 .

A complete week off is not the kind of rest you need. Your FTP when you get back will be all kinds of messed up from not riding at all. You will get a more accurate result if you get back on the bike for several days (or even a week) before you test again.

I generally perform my standard test after 5 days rest and I consistently come close to or set personal records during those tests. I might lose some fitness during rest but I always lose a lot of fatigue and the net effect is greater form.

I started using this protocol after reading Training and Racing with a Power Meter. One thing I don't understand is why the suggested protocol before a standard test is different than the suggested protocol before a race. Before a test is all passive and active rest days. Before a race there are some passive and active rest days and then a "race tune-up" workout that includes some 1 minute intervals and sprints.

 

[scottz123]

I would invest in Joe Friels latest training bible. He is an advocate of lots of zone 2 in off-season.

But you will learn about building up a training week, month , season, etc. How to build up a month of intensity and then recover.

Substitute his Zone 2 for your more intense levels.

Your enthusiasm is great! Better to under do then over do. Better to be 10% under trained then 1% over trained.

I have done what you are doing and could not make thru whole outdoor season before burning out.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by scottz123 .....Substitute his Zone 2 for your more intense levels.
Your enthusiasm is great! Better to under do then over do. Better to be 10% under trained then 1% over trained.

I have done what you are doing and could not make thru whole outdoor season before burning out.

That is a very good idea.....IF you have 15 to 20 or more hours per week to train on a regular basis. No doubt LSD based approaches work very well if you do a lot of it day in, day out through your off season. But for those training 12 to 14 or perhaps fewer hours per week LSD work typically doesn't do a whole lot at least after the first year or two of early training development.

Even Friel has begun to change his tune regarding SST work. Check out his website and blog posts on the subject, especially what he's written over the past year or two and contrast that against what's written in his training bible. His training bible has some very good information and is based on a lot of coaching tradition including an unspoken endorsement of LSD as a base building approach but if you read his on line stuff, he's coming around on SST work.

Bottom line:

- Try to train hard and train long at the same time and bad things tend to happen.....hence the wisdom in LSD pacing for those putting in a lot of training time

- Train too easy and not very much and NOTHING tends to happen....hence the reason folks with less training time tend to gravitate towards SST work

Avoid either extreme and there are a lot of ways to craft a program with a good blend of focused FTP development work as well as some longer more moderate riding.

-Dave

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by tomw1974 .

Removing a rest day (and even worse, adding more intensity throughout) is not exactly the best idea for a plan that's already on the intense side. Your body needs that time to actually increase your fitness. Overtraining and burnout will set you back a lot further than you can ever imagine.

+1. I have done the plan a couple times and I would hesitate removing a rest day, especially if it is not one of the power interval days that you are swapping out for less intense workout day. If I remember correctly there are some weeks with 3 days of high intensity interval efforts, and some of those days are back to back. Then again I'm no spring chicken and my legs seem to like the rest.

 

[smaryka]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .
Bottom line:

- Try to train hard and train long at the same time and bad things tend to happen.....hence the wisdom in LSD pacing for those putting in a lot of training time

- Train too easy and not very much and NOTHING tends to happen....hence the reason folks with less training time tend to gravitate towards SST work

Avoid either extreme and there are a lot of ways to craft a program with a good blend of focused FTP development work as well as some longer more moderate riding.

-Dave

Good post and I agree -- and will probably quote the "bottom line" bit to others as it's nicely succinct. One exception though... it is possible to "train hard and train long" for a short period of time, in the form of a ~4-10 day "training camp" where all you do is ride, recover, eat and sleep, aka a "training camp holiday". I know many North Americans have limited vacation days but lots of Europeans get 5-6 weeks off a year and many riders travel to the Spanish islands to do this, especially in late winter or early spring.

Used properly and in moderation, this kind of intense training is a very effective way to boost your CTL and get a whole lot of volume in a short period of time but the caveat is that you MUST recover properly when you return home to your real life again. Cycling, unlike more hard-wearing sports like running, lends itself to this kind of huge volume, so as long as you are sensible in recovery and not nursing any injuries, I highly recommend this kind of camp. All the better if you can go with a group of like-minded folks and ride together, and wear shorts and enjoy warm weather in winter!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by smaryka ....I highly recommend this kind of camp. All the better if you can go with a group of like-minded folks and ride together, and wear shorts and enjoy warm weather in winter!

Agreed, training camps and periodic big blocks of training rock provided as you say that folks allow for recovery from those big digs.

From a CTL management perspective, most folks can sustain CTL ramp rates on the order of 3 to 5 points per week or a bit more for extended periods where steep ramps above 8 CTL points per week or so often lead to trouble when riders try that for too many consecutive weeks. But a single week of much steeper ramp rate during a camp or stage race isn't typically a problem as long as folks allow for adequate recovery afterwards.

-Dave

 

[scottz123]

daveryan
what dont you understand about substituting more intense efforts for zone 2?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by scottz123 .

daveryan
what dont you understand about substituting more intense efforts for zone 2?

Which is it, what you've posted above or what you posted previously:

Originally Posted by scottz123 . ...Substitute his Zone 2 for your more intense levels....

These statements are diametrically opposed or poorly written. Are you advocating lower intensity efforts as in more L2 as in an LSD approach or are you advocating substituting more intensity for reduced time on the bike aka an SST approach to winter base building. As stated above I firmly believe either can work if you have the time available to train long hours and recover from them but if you don't I personally advocate an SST approach for most folks with real world limits on their training time. And as mentioned above Friel has also moved a long way in this direction in recent years.

I entirely understand the fear of over training and a winter build based on lower intensity rides. I was coached that way for many years....with dismal results. I also understand the very real risk of under training and the benefits of folks balancing full time job and families moving towards SST work and have enjoyed much better results personally and with clients via SST methods for folks with less daily time to train. I also understand this stuff is not binary and there's plenty of room in between the extremes to blend programs as long as you keep an eye on recovery and managing training load.

You may prefer an LSD based approach and that's great. But what is it about time vs intensity tradeoffs that you're apparently not understanding?


-Dave

 

[scottz123]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


Which is it, what you've posted above or what you posted previously:


These statements are diametrically opposed or poorly written. Are you advocating lower intensity efforts as in more L2 as in an LSD approach or are you advocating substituting more intensity for reduced time on the bike aka an SST approach to winter base building. As stated above I firmly believe either can work if you have the time available to train long hours and recover from them but if you don't I personally advocate an SST approach for most folks with real world limits on their training time. And as mentioned above Friel has also moved a long way in this direction in recent years.

I entirely understand the fear of over training and a winter build based on lower intensity rides. I was coached that way for many years....with dismal results. I also understand the very real risk of under training and the benefits of folks balancing full time job and families moving towards SST work and have enjoyed much better results personally and with clients via SST methods for folks with less daily time to train. I also understand this stuff is not binary and there's plenty of room in between the extremes to blend programs as long as you keep an eye on recovery and managing training load.

You may prefer an LSD based approach and that's great. But what is it about time vs intensity tradeoffs that you're apparently not understanding?


-Dave

Easy Dave...

You are looking to far into statement. Diametrically? (Is that 6 syllables or 5?) Poorly written? Could be. I guess it is my fault entirely. I should have made it "crystal clear"

"His" being Friel - Author of book I was addressing. "Your" being original poster I was addressing

My main reason for posting was to help educate original poster on an easy way to structure season/workouts. And Learn from my mistakes. Sorry it was taken out of context.

My original quote:
"I would invest in Joe Friels latest training bible. He is an advocate of lots of zone 2 in off-season.

But you will learn about building up a training week, month , season, etc. How to build up a month of intensity and then recover.

Substitute his Zone 2 for your more intense levels.

Your enthusiasm is great! Better to under do then over do. Better to be 10% under trained then 1% over trained.

I have done what you are doing and could not make thru whole outdoor season before burning out."

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I agree with you that the training bible is very good for introducing yearly periodization and looking at the big picture, just that it does so with an unspoken assumption that folks will use LSD for their base building which can be confusing.

I still don't really know what you're advocating other than buying a book and then swapping some things around. From your first post it seemed clear you were suggesting that the OP remove more intense work from his schedule and replace those workouts with L2 work per the training bible. That's what I was initially responding to as I definitely feel that really makes the most sense for folks who can ride a lot of weekly hours on a regular basis.

But your second post seemed to be saying the opposite or that the OP should use the training bible's ideas on annual periodization but replace some of the L2 base building workouts in the book with more intense SST work. That I generally agree with as long as overall load is managed appropriately.

So maybe I read your first post wrong based on what you intended or perhaps you disagree with an SST approach and prefer an LSD based approach for everyone which seemed to be part of what you were getting at with your '...Better to be 10% under trained then 1% over trained...' thoughts. If that's worked for you and helped you achieve your riding goals then great, there are many ways to skin this cat, but IME for most part time riders under training is a bigger problem than overtraining but YMMV.

-Dave

 

[ira41]

So I had to interrupt my plan for a nice week long vacation in Maui. it ended with my not hitting the resort spin bike and having 11 days off the bike.

I decided since I was only a few weeks in and given a lot of missed intervals I should just restart it. I thought I would start it on Monday and do another CTS field test today to reset my zones.

So I hopped on go through the warm up and then do my first 8 minutes, I had planned to utterly kill myself and it worked.
I rode hard for 8 minutes and posted 181 watts which is exactly 20 watts higher than 5 week prior, I thought I was going to die.
I spun easy for 10 minutes and never felt really recovered, I blasted out 2 minutes into the next 8 minute and couldn't do anything but try and catch my breath.

I noticed with my easy spinning my HR was 16 beats higher usually I am around 114 and it was 130 at the same wattage, I think the layoff and then going into a field test was a bad idea, maybe an easy ride or two would have settled things back down, maybe it was the two cups of coffee earlier. I was really looking forward to the 20 watt gain too bad I couldn't hold it for my second set.

Now I am thinking I need to do a week of getting back in the mix with some L2 and L4 before I start again, or maybe just try and retest tomorrow since I feel pretty fresh.

 

[An old Guy]

Vacations happen. I think your problem is that you are guaging your progress on a 8 minute test.

Don't do short intense rider. Do longer rides - 1 hour is nice. Try to keep improving your power output on those rides.

---

I just got back from vacation. Did 60 miles at 90% on the first 2 days and then had 14 days with my lovely wife, kids, and grandkids and thousands of other people. Caught a cold - crowds and poor food choices. Another 5 days off the bike. But I did do 30 milutes today at 75%. I will go out tomorrow for 3 hours at 80-90%.

 

[scottz123]

I agree with old guy.

If time is the problem = do a steady tempo for what time you have available.