New Performance Management Chart Use

[komwannabe]

I just started using my new SRM and WKO+ at the begining of June this year. How many months of data do you need in the Performance Management Chart for it to be working properly (i.e., showing accurate ramp increases/decreaes)?

Also, I noticed with interest the long thread about the difference in watts/PE on indoor trainers v. outdoor. Is there any way to manually add wattage or TSS/IF to a workout in WKO+ to adjust for lower wattage from the indoor trainer when the PE is actually through the roof, or should I just ignore the missing mileage and lower wattage v. actually much higher PE from trainer workouts?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I just started using my new SRM and WKO+ at the begining of June this year. How many months of data do you need in the Performance Management Chart for it to be working properly (i.e., showing accurate ramp increases/decreaes)?

That depends on what you use for CTL and ATL seed values, how high your current training load is and whether you use the default(42 and 7 days) time constants. You can speed the early parts of the curve up a bit by entering a starting seed value. If your training has been pretty steady in terms of weekly time and intensity then just seed CTL and ATL with a TSS that represents your current load. You can tell if you guessed well if the curve stays relatively flat or climbs slowly to your current value(seed a lower value if you've been on a CTL building ramp which is likely with the new PM). If the seed values are too high you'll see a sharp drop at the beginning of the ramp and then a climb to your current levels. In that case try a smaller seed value.

...Also, I noticed with interest the long thread about the difference in watts/PE on indoor trainers v. outdoor. Is there any way to manually add wattage or TSS/IF to a workout in WKO+ to adjust for lower wattage from the indoor trainer when the PE is actually through the roof, ...

Power and time a.k.a. TSS is really all that counts. The higher PE could reflect lack of momentum that you'd get outdoors, overheating indoors or mental boredom but your muscles, heart, lungs, etc. are adapting in response to workload and not PE so don't try to adjust your numbers. You did whatever workout you did even if it was tougher while staring at the TV. The good news is that outdoor workouts will feel easier.

-Dave

 

[Alex Simmons]

I just started using my new SRM and WKO+ at the begining of June this year. How many months of data do you need in the Performance Management Chart for it to be working properly (i.e., showing accurate ramp increases/decreaes)?

About 3 months, but as Dave says, it can be closer if your seed value estimates are pretty good.

 

[frenchyge]

Power and time a.k.a. TSS is really all that counts.

Not exactly, since it's power referenced to FTP in the TSS calculation. It sounds to me that the OP is considering the possibility that his FTP may be lower on the trainer.

Is there any way to manually add wattage or TSS/IF to a workout in WKO+ to adjust for lower wattage from the indoor trainer when the PE is actually through the roof...

You can manually adjust the IF and TSS values for each workout in WKO+. In the calendar view, right click on a workout and select Override Values from the menu.

...or should I just ignore the missing mileage and lower wattage v. actually much higher PE from trainer workouts?

That'd be my suggestion. Unless you're going to regularly do FTP tests on the road and trainer separately to determine the correction factor, it's just too hard to track along with all the fitness changes. It's just as likely to introduce error than reduce it, unless you really struggle with the trainer that much.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Not exactly, since it's power referenced to FTP in the TSS calculation. It sounds to me that the OP is considering the possibility that his FTP may be lower on the trainer.

Similar to how some riders use/have a different FTP on MTB vs Road, or at altitude vs sea level.

When entering a manual workout, you can choose a different sport, like MTB, Race or other, and use that to record TSS estimate. Then you can chart PMC using those sports you want, and have others only use cycling sport data.

But as Frenchyge says, unless it's a significant difference and often, prob not worth it.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Not exactly, since it's power referenced to FTP in the TSS calculation. It sounds to me that the OP is considering the possibility that his FTP may be lower on the trainer.

Fair enough. I've always struggled with the idea of a different indoor vs. outdoor FTP. How do you even begin to seperate the psychological vs. phsyiological differences between riding indoors and out? What mechanism would result in heart, blood, capillaries and mitochondria being more limited indoors than out? I'm not saying the differences don't exist, just that I can't figure out what would be different and how you'd ever know it wasn't just a focus issue when stuck riding indoors on a trainer with very little road feel. That's different than say riding a bike with a very different geometry like a mountain or TT bike or riding at different elevations where the mechanisms to limit power clearly exist.

Anyway like you said I still wouldn't manipulate workout data unless the differences were pronounced and made a big difference. After all the data starts losing value as soon as you start fudging it up or down.

-Dave

 

[komwannabe]

Many thanks to you all for the responses. They are very helpful, as always.

I played around with the seed values and the chart looks a little more realistic now... not the extended increase in CTL, which I know I haven't really had. If anything, CTL has probably been tapering off since June, but is now heading north again since I've recently started with some L3, SST, L4, instead of the usual routine of summer races, hard group rides and recovery rides. I hope my FTP starts showing some increases pretty soon... I'm not a patient sort by nature and the PM has revealed the ugly truth of my surprisingly low power numbers. I will try to give it more than one week...

Your advice to not worry about adjusting numbers for indoor v. outdoor make sense and I won't do it. However, it is still really frustrating to have PE so high for so little TSS/IF value from the indoor trainer work. Guess I have to keep the bigger picture in mind.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[frenchyge]

Fair enough. I've always struggled with the idea of a different indoor vs. outdoor FTP. How do you even begin to seperate the psychological vs. phsyiological differences between riding indoors and out? What mechanism would result in heart, blood, capillaries and mitochondria being more limited indoors than out?

The beauty of using a functional or performance test as a metric is that you don't necessarily have to understand *why* the difference exists. As long as the difference consistent and measurable, it's enough just to acknowledge that it's real and adjust for it.

That said, I personally find that the difference between road and indoor power will decrease with more frequent indoor riding and that there's not a consistent delta that can be adjusted for. That's most of the reason why I suggested not worrying about it. Enough people seem to feel the opposite however, that I'm willing to dismiss my own anecdotal data as the exception.

 

[Tom Fort]

Many thanks to you all for the responses. They are very helpful, as always.

I played around with the seed values and the chart looks a little more realistic now... not the extended increase in CTL, which I know I haven't really had. If anything, CTL has probably been tapering off since June, but is now heading north again since I've recently started with some L3, SST, L4, instead of the usual routine of summer races, hard group rides and recovery rides. I hope my FTP starts showing some increases pretty soon... I'm not a patient sort by nature and the PM has revealed the ugly truth of my surprisingly low power numbers. I will try to give it more than one week...

Your advice to not worry about adjusting numbers for indoor v. outdoor make sense and I won't do it. However, it is still really frustrating to have PE so high for so little TSS/IF value from the indoor trainer work. Guess I have to keep the bigger picture in mind.

Thanks again for the help!

Besides just getting used to riding indoors, the biggest thing to "reset" you PE indoors is to stay cool. It takes a pretty big fan blowing right on you to make a difference, and even then it's nowhere close to the cooling effect you experience out on the road.

I have a high velocity floor fan sitting right in front of my front fork on the trainer. When it's hot in the garage I'll also get off the bike between intervals, grab a quick drink and stick my head under the sink.