New Road frame,its called NEO Exile!!



tonyzackery

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2006
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LOL! Believe or not, I'm with Alienator on this one - and usually I agree to disagree with his comments.

There's nothing at all special about that frame - and IMO, it's overpriced. 800+ pounds for a generic carbon frame!! I think NOT! I don't know today's exact conversion, but that's over $1600US. PedalForce's top-of-line won't set you that far back...

If you're trying to sell something, come right out with it...
 

Hanzypanzy

New Member
Jan 5, 2008
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alienator said:
How how much does the light weight of the NEO exile improve climbing? What percentage increase, as a function of slope, power and mass, should a person see with this weight compared to heavier frame? What percentage increase, again as a function of slope, mass, and power, should a person expect in speed?

What has been done to increase lateral stiffness in the bottom bracket? How many watts will this save? What has been done to increase the tortional stiffness of the BB? How many watts will that save? What percentage of a rider's power is wasted in BB flex or torsion? What has been done to increase the torsional stiffness of the head tube? How much will that increase the mechanical efficiency of the bike rider system? Have losses due to hysteresis been addressed only by increasing stiffness, or has the CF matrix been altered so that for a given amount of flex or torsion, energy losses to hysteresis are reduced?

What are the fatigue modes of this new frame? Do the frame and fork have any characteristic harmonics, in the spectrum of riding conditions possible, that would compromise bike stability and/or control?

Can you please detail how compliance in the vertical plane has been addressed? What was done to make the bike flex in that plane more than the few parts of a millimeter that almost every other frame on the market flexes?

When the stiffness was "improved," was vibrational damping also addressed? How so?

How big of an effect does flexure in the vertical plane have compared to other methods of "improving" comfort?

As for facts, why do I need facts to present logical questions? Up until this point, I've been using what are considered to be facts re: the static and dynamic properties of bicycles.

My background? Hmmm. What is yours? I've dabbled a bit in science and engineering, doing design and design analysis of airborne sensor platforms in both dynamic and static cases. I've worked in a lab where we did testing of composite (i.e., carbon fiber) and metal parts used in jet and rocket engines. For the last 4 years I've specialized in high precision metrology, like developing systems to measure to very high resolution (like to a nanometer) and analyzing said measurement data.

Since you're now going to tell me how all of the different design and structural features of this frame make performance gains that are above the noise threshold for measurement, you should fill everyone in on your background.
Are we in a court of law here????lol

Ok, college student,lets see:

Light weight wins races with significant climbing because the heavier bike can't make up the gap on descents or on the flats. In your lab, not the real world,weight does not climb better,but in the real world of racing the lab does not mirror real life here. When the rider accelerates up the climb,his heavier counterpart will be left behind.

The bottom bracket area is 4.5/5mm wider than some of its earlier designs to increase lateral stiffness (the % of which cannot be written in print yet as this could be used against if incorrect). This in turn allows a slightly wider down tube so an increase in torsional stiffness.

The head tube has been stiffened by placing the lower headset bearing higher up into the head tube so that forces are now directed more into the down tube. Bike stability and control have improved as result of this also, it worked for Specialized.

Hysteresis and carbon matrix have been addressed,as this was in the original Wilier/GURU, but I hope you will allow me some time to ask the lab experts for the % and figures.

Flexing in the vertical plane ,as all bikes do, was addressed by the carbon mix lay-up as only T800 has been used. The tube shape,being totally round and bag lay-up inside, has left as good a finish in there,creating no area for extra fatigue/flex.

Vibrational damping was addressed, as with any bike, the stiffer the rear triangle,the less loss of power(this is a fact), but this ovbiously creates a harsher ride. Lets take this to its two limits, too much flex, or too stiff.........our version can only be described as `what we feel is correct`. The riders will tell us if we have done a good job here or not.

My background is in F1, we currently design/make/test/evaluate all our own items,along with our number crunchers like yourself, and either bin it or win with it.

I hope Ive been of some use here (Im sorry the % and figures are not free flowing......yet). In the wider view of things, our immediate concern is to have some of these out on the road,for proper use and abuse. You can do all the work in the lab, but even one of our main rivals in F1 will tell you.......the proof is on the stopwatch when testing begins. This is no different.

I hope to have some figures soon to satisfy you, in the mean time, do you have any bike riding experience? Our lab guys are excellent at the design and explaining why we need these new bits..................but put them in the car to evaluate them and its not good. I hope to fing out where you have used you extensive knowledge in the cycling world.
 

alienator

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2004
12,596
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Hanzypanzy said:
Are we in a court of law here????lol

Ok, college student,lets see:

Light weight wins races with significant climbing because the heavier bike can't make up the gap on descents or on the flats. In your lab, not the real world,weight does not climb better,but in the real world of racing the lab does not mirror real life here. When the rider accelerates up the climb,his heavier counterpart will be left behind.

The bottom bracket area is 4.5/5mm wider than some of its earlier designs to increase lateral stiffness (the % of which cannot be written in print yet as this could be used against if incorrect). This in turn allows a slightly wider down tube so an increase in torsional stiffness.

The head tube has been stiffened by placing the lower headset bearing higher up into the head tube so that forces are now directed more into the down tube. Bike stability and control have improved as result of this also, it worked for Specialized.

Hysteresis and carbon matrix have been addressed,as this was in the original Wilier/GURU, but I hope you will allow me some time to ask the lab experts for the % and figures.

Flexing in the vertical plane ,as all bikes do, was addressed by the carbon mix lay-up as only T800 has been used. The tube shape,being totally round and bag lay-up inside, has left as good a finish in there,creating no area for extra fatigue/flex.

Vibrational damping was addressed, as with any bike, the stiffer the rear triangle,the less loss of power(this is a fact), but this ovbiously creates a harsher ride. Lets take this to its two limits, too much flex, or too stiff.........our version can only be described as `what we feel is correct`. The riders will tell us if we have done a good job here or not.

My background is in F1, we currently design/make/test/evaluate all our own items,along with our number crunchers like yourself, and either bin it or win with it.

I hope Ive been of some use here (Im sorry the % and figures are not free flowing......yet). In the wider view of things, our immediate concern is to have some of these out on the road,for proper use and abuse. You can do all the work in the lab, but even one of our main rivals in F1 will tell you.......the proof is on the stopwatch when testing begins. This is no different.

I hope to have some figures soon to satisfy you, in the mean time, do you have any bike riding experience? Our lab guys are excellent at the design and explaining why we need these new bits..................but put them in the car to evaluate them and its not good. I hope to fing out where you have used you extensive knowledge in the cycling world.

What a tool you are. I guess you assumed all my work was done in a lab, eh? Well, so much for your intuition. I guess we'll deduct points for you jumping to wrong conclusions. Apparently you aren't involved in the technical end of F1.....but you shouldn't be ashamed that you just sweep up the shop when everyone's gone.

Your explanation of the impact of mass on a bike is hysterical. See, you answered just like someone who's got no real world experience. See, in the real world, very small changes often don't make any measureable difference as said changes can be lost in the noise. Among those changes would be changes in bike weight. If we take your perspective, then your frame certainly isn't worth the money as lighter frames can be had that will, apparently climb like mountain goats because they're "lighter"......or so you allege. A Pedal Force frame is cheaper and a solid performer.

Stiffer than a Le Roi? Since when is the Le Roi the benchmark for stiffness? You couldn't even address specific stiffness questions. You've a lot of excuses though. It's likely the company either didn't forward the results of tests to the marketing dept or didn't feel the need to test their mass produced generic frame.

Your college student quip really rocked! Man, you got it going on! Of course, with the intuition and intellect you've shown so far, it's no surprise that you hold dear some very myopic stereotypes. But if you wanna play the "college student" card, did you happen to notice who's running that whole Phoenix Mars Lander mission, right now, that's on the surface of Mars? Yeah, it's some undergrads, some graduate students, some professors....Sure, a mission to Mars isn't anywhere near as complex and difficult as F1 racing, but I guess for punters it's not so bad. I imagine, by the same neanderthal throwback-like assumptions you make about other topics, you must assume that being involved with F1 is the pinnacle of human accomplishment. Uh-huh.

Really, though. I'm totally impressed. I'm so impressed that I can't wait for you to ask me out on a date. Really.
 

Bro Deal

New Member
Jun 26, 2006
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Sounds like someone watched The Matrix one too many times. When do the Morpheus and Zion models come out? Can I get one with green decals?
 

Hanzypanzy

New Member
Jan 5, 2008
20
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alienator said:
What a tool you are. I guess you assumed all my work was done in a lab, eh? Well, so much for your intuition. I guess we'll deduct points for you jumping to wrong conclusions. Apparently you aren't involved in the technical end of F1.....but you shouldn't be ashamed that you just sweep up the shop when everyone's gone.

Your explanation of the impact of mass on a bike is hysterical. See, you answered just like someone who's got no real world experience. See, in the real world, very small changes often don't make any measureable difference as said changes can be lost in the noise. Among those changes would be changes in bike weight. If we take your perspective, then your frame certainly isn't worth the money as lighter frames can be had that will, apparently climb like mountain goats because they're "lighter"......or so you allege. A Pedal Force frame is cheaper and a solid performer.

Stiffer than a Le Roi? Since when is the Le Roi the benchmark for stiffness? You couldn't even address specific stiffness questions. You've a lot of excuses though. It's likely the company either didn't forward the results of tests to the marketing dept or didn't feel the need to test their mass produced generic frame.

Your college student quip really rocked! Man, you got it going on! Of course, with the intuition and intellect you've shown so far, it's no surprise that you hold dear some very myopic stereotypes. But if you wanna play the "college student" card, did you happen to notice who's running that whole Phoenix Mars Lander mission, right now, that's on the surface of Mars? Yeah, it's some undergrads, some graduate students, some professors....Sure, a mission to Mars isn't anywhere near as complex and difficult as F1 racing, but I guess for punters it's not so bad. I imagine, by the same neanderthal throwback-like assumptions you make about other topics, you must assume that being involved with F1 is the pinnacle of human accomplishment. Uh-huh.

Really, though. I'm totally impressed. I'm so impressed that I can't wait for you to ask me out on a date. Really.
Guy, its a new bike frame, it didnt claim to re-invent the whole bike world.........F1 is fairly high up on the technical list, ovbiously going to Mars is higher on the list...............but fella...........what are you on about...........its a bike frame............for cycling..........it wont be and we never said it would be competing at TDF.............oh my god.............
 

Hanzypanzy

New Member
Jan 5, 2008
20
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tonyzackery said:
LOL! Believe or not, I'm with Alienator on this one - and usually I agree to disagree with his comments.

There's nothing at all special about that frame - and IMO, it's overpriced. 800+ pounds for a generic carbon frame!! I think NOT! I don't know today's exact conversion, but that's over $1600US. PedalForce's top-of-line won't set you that far back...

If you're trying to sell something, come right out with it...
Thanks for your views Tony, as Ive always said, this is for research and as of yet, the product is not for sale.
Finally some constructive comments, the price is one side of things that can be looked at. Pedalforce certainly do have very competitive prices, but the frame comes as a frameset, ie with frame/fork/seatpost/headset/clamp etc..........I maybe wrong,please tell me if I am, I think Pedalforce prices on their website are for frame alone.

This frame isnt intended to insult, its good to know what you guys think and expect.
Thanks
 

Hanzypanzy

New Member
Jan 5, 2008
20
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0
Bro Deal said:
Sounds like someone watched The Matrix one too many times. When do the Morpheus and Zion models come out? Can I get one with green decals?
Constructive comments please,
 

CAMPYBOB

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2005
11,945
1,038
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George...izzat you?

Will this be offered in a Roi model with high quality Zefiro carbon fiber parts?
 

Hanzypanzy

New Member
Jan 5, 2008
20
0
0
CAMPYBOB said:
George...izzat you?

Will this be offered in a Roi model with high quality Zefiro carbon fiber parts?
Im not quite sure what your asking here? The frame will come as a frameset, ie frame/fork/seatpost/headset/clamp. We currently build Wilier Le Roi with 3T or FSA carbon parts along with SRAM groupsets. The NEO can be offered with either 3T/FSA.
http://s367.photobucket.com/albums/oo112/Colbert_Carbon_Cycles/COMPLETE%20%20BIKES/FOR%20SALE/?action=view&current=WilierSRAMbuild004.jpg
 

alienator

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2004
12,596
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Hanzypanzy said:
.......oh my god.............
No thanks. I don't worship your god, you know, the one that copies other people's work, relies on Spam to do his job. Maybe you should direct everyone to Guru or Wilier to have their questions answered. :rolleyes:
 

tonyzackery

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2006
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Hanzypanzy said:
Thanks for your views Tony, as Ive always said, this is for research and as of yet, the product is not for sale.
Finally some constructive comments, the price is one side of things that can be looked at. Pedalforce certainly do have very competitive prices, but the frame comes as a frameset, ie with frame/fork/seatpost/headset/clamp etc..........I maybe wrong,please tell me if I am, I think Pedalforce prices on their website are for frame alone.
LOL! Boy, you missed the boat on that one...Anyway and for your arguments' sake, add a fork to PedalForce's frame price and your frameset is still overpriced...
 

Bro Deal

New Member
Jun 26, 2006
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Hanzypanzy said:
Constructive comments please,
Good morning, Mr. Anderson. It was constructive. It was making fun of a trend in the industry: Fake manufacturers that are really just branding companies; their entire business plan consists of taking generic, usually Chinese made frames, and giving them what they consider to be a cool name and graphics then selling them for outrageous markups, perhaps while pretending to have better quality than everyone else.
 

Phill P

New Member
Jul 9, 2006
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Hanzy

1) Don't bother arguing with alienator. Listening to what he saying and ignoring what you don't agree with is the best approach.
2) I called the spam thing early as well. I prefer it when people come straight out and say "I am going to start selling this, what do you think". I have no problem with people gauging interesting and gathering feed back. Be straight up about everything though when you do it. Otherwise it can back fire.
3) Weight and stiffness are selling points, but don't actually make a bike any better than another in isolation. Stiffer FEELS faster, but there is no proof that it is faster. I like stiff for out of the saddle, and I like light. But I'd take good fitting and strong any day. Stiff is no good if it is harh to ride.
4) I would say your design/layout was inpired by or bench marked on rather than based on.
5) You will find it hard to compete with people already in the game. Others will offer better value. Others again will offer better marketing stats. You need to find something you can offer that nobody else does. Photocromatic paint??
 

Hanzypanzy

New Member
Jan 5, 2008
20
0
0
Bro Deal said:
Good morning, Mr. Anderson. It was constructive. It was making fun of a trend in the industry: Fake manufacturers that are really just branding companies; their entire business plan consists of taking generic, usually Chinese made frames, and giving them what they consider to be a cool name and graphics then selling them for outrageous markups, perhaps while pretending to have better quality than everyone else.
Yeah, I know what your saying Bro, the same `copy and rebrand` ethic exsists in nearly all markets these days. This frame isnt a total copy of any Chinese or Asian frame, it has a few changes, otherwise it would sell for around £250-£400,as we can buy any frame from that area for that price.
We have made some changes, but maybe I have talked it up a little too much,and implied it is a radical,groundbreaking,major tour winning frame............I hope Ive not gone too far then, as this is simply a new frame, posted on here to get a few ideas from riders on styling/their needs etc.

Its a high quality frameset,just like most Asian frames, we felt it was well balanced in `not too much time and effort spent on poseing` and just making a frame capable of winning in national events, and possibly it may fall into the middle market.........not just another rebranded stolen frame design,and not a £2000 direct from an already established company.
Guys, we are here to listen, please dont take my replies with any nasty intent, keep the thoughts coming
 

Hanzypanzy

New Member
Jan 5, 2008
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roshea said:
Hmmm. So it's £850 from you or $US750 from here. Tough decision for sure! :D
Very ture, this is a tough decision for you ! lol

Seriously though, we are based in the UK, so we will be supplying this end of any market, so by the time the customer adds on our good old taxes that need to be paid for importing items, the price goes sky high. We currently have at least 3 extra taxes payable so our price is not that realistic, but as I mentioned before, the price is not yet set in stone.
 

Hanzypanzy

New Member
Jan 5, 2008
20
0
0
Phill P said:
Hanzy

1) Don't bother arguing with alienator. Listening to what he saying and ignoring what you don't agree with is the best approach.
2) I called the spam thing early as well. I prefer it when people come straight out and say "I am going to start selling this, what do you think". I have no problem with people gauging interesting and gathering feed back. Be straight up about everything though when you do it. Otherwise it can back fire.
3) Weight and stiffness are selling points, but don't actually make a bike any better than another in isolation. Stiffer FEELS faster, but there is no proof that it is faster. I like stiff for out of the saddle, and I like light. But I'd take good fitting and strong any day. Stiff is no good if it is harh to ride.
4) I would say your design/layout was inpired by or bench marked on rather than based on.
5) You will find it hard to compete with people already in the game. Others will offer better value. Others again will offer better marketing stats. You need to find something you can offer that nobody else does. Photocromatic paint??
Thanks Phil for the pointers, good advice indeed. The quality of the frame will only become apparent when a review can be displayed on its ride etc. The stiffness has been looked at, and the rear triangle has been put together with stiff yet not too harsh in mind...........but again this will be riders choice and how he/she felt on the thing......everyone is different, so remains to be seen if its been got right.

Thanks again,one of the few replies that isint a useless rant. No offence to the other useful replies Ive had intended, there just hasnt been many
 

rparedes

New Member
Jul 21, 2007
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Hanzypanzy said:
Thanks for your views Tony, as Ive always said, this is for research and as of yet, the product is not for sale.
Finally some constructive comments, the price is one side of things that can be looked at. Pedalforce certainly do have very competitive prices, but the frame comes as a frameset, ie with frame/fork/seatpost/headset/clamp etc..........I maybe wrong,please tell me if I am, I think Pedalforce prices on their website are for frame alone.

This frame isnt intended to insult, its good to know what you guys think and expect.
Thanks

The IMMORTAL SPIRIT Motobecane frameset (frame, fork and headset) sells for $780; very good reviews.
 

alienator

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2004
12,596
161
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rparedes said:
The IMMORTAL SPIRIT Motobecane frameset (frame, fork and headset) sells for $780; very good reviews.

Yup. There are a host of "sticker" brands that are less expensive and are proven, excellent frames. You can go out and find any number of re-branded Fuji frames, that are top notch frames. As mentioned, the Pedal Force frames are universally acknowledged to be great frames, and they beat the NEO on price. It only takes about 5 or 10 minutes with Google to find frames that are cheaper and offer the same "features." Of course, the NEO's "features" have only been vaguely described. For a customer in the US, where to buy the NEO is a non-starter: $750 vs. $1400. IF these sellers are somehow business related, and IF this frame were actually "designed"--in full or in part--in the UK, it's even more suspicious that there'd be two widely varying prices.

One "feature" that hasn't been addressed is customer service and/or warranty. With Pedal Force and the others, there is at least a website and contact info. So far with this NEO, there are just two rather anonymous personal sites. They are far from having any professional appearance and give the appearance that the sites will be there at least until your check clears.

$1400 is shitload of money for a generic, "put your name here" frame. Moreover, marketing spray for such a frame is even more suspicious. With Scattante at least you get the generally "no questions asked" replacement policy of Performance Bikes.

Of course, people might be willing to pay for a no-name product just to get something "lighter" or allegedly "stiffer." Well, I guess then people deserve what they get if they don't ask what actually is stiffer, what is meant by stiffer, and where is the proof. Those same people, I guess, might just want to get the new Zipp stem that has the dimpled face plate. After all, dimples are faster, right?

Claims as seen with this NEO are just further proof that customers need to get off the "stiffer and lighter" propaganda train. Sean Kelly seemed to damned well with his whip-like Vitus frames. And there were frames, at the time, that were much stiffer.

It is important to keep these performance benefit claims in perspective. Just like how comparing the performance of a CF in the tailplane of an F-16 to the performance of CF in a Pinarello Prince is completely irrelevant, so is qualifying the performance benefits of increased stiffness in a bike with performance benefits of increased stiffness in some F1 component. In scientific or engineering parlance, such comparisons would be called "fucking stupid." Similarly comparing the stiffness parameters and their performance influence on fully suspended mountain bikes to the same on road bikes is idiotic at best. It's not even in the ball park to draw even some very faint comparison. The same is true with weight comparisons. Weight doesn't appear to be a factor for most ProTour riders and teams, given the average bike weight in the ProTour is in the 17lb range.

As proof of how specious some of these claims are, at Weight Weenies, Mark McM, modeled a bike/rider system based on the appropriate scientific ideas, i.e. Newtonian Mechanics, on this page, calculated the form of the solution, and then ran values through the equation to find out how, in this case, wheel weight and a wheel's rotational moment of inertia affected performance. The answer oh-so very little. The equation is equally valid for the bike weight claims independent of rotational mass difference, in general. In fact that simplifies the equation and makes the answers even smaller. Those are facts that cannot be danced around whether your Stephen Hawkings or some guy working in some capacity on an F1 team. If you're interested in how stiffness affects bicycle peformance, well, you're gonna have to wait for answers because no one has done any study that showed that stiffness makes a substantive performance difference. Cervelo (leading stiffness snake oil salesman) haven't done it. Canyon--makers of some of the stiffest bikes in existence--haven't done it. No university has done it, and last I checked neither CERN, NASA, or the American Dental Asssociation was interested in doing it. Hopefully, the cutting edge stuff done in the creation of the NEO will be published in Science or Nature and the lead scientists in charge of said research and analysis will speak at engineering and science conferences so that other scientists and engineers can understand just how the NEO's creators were able to make such revolutionary improvements.

As usual, buying a NEO should really only be done based on four simple things:
  1. You like the way it looks and gets you excited about riding.
  2. It fits you.
  3. You like the way things feel when you ride it.
  4. You're willing to spend the money on it.
Any other reasons are likely the result of drinking the NEO koolaid.
 

Felt_Rider

Active Member
Oct 24, 2004
3,257
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Too many slightly used CF reputable name brand frames on ebay can be had for $1400+/- that are presently seen on the road to take a chance on an unknown. Who knows, maybe someday we will see a popularity of NEO's out on the road.

For me I will just keep riding my mostly aluminum bike. :D
But I do have a new rear wheel coming that I am excited about and I hope it turns out to be a good purchase.

Kinlin xr-300 (niobium), Cxray spokes, powertap sl hub