New Runner Goal-3.25 mile in 20min

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Paul, Feb 18, 2004.

  1. Paul

    Paul Guest

    I'm starting a running program. My goal is to run around the local park (3.25 miles) in less than
    twenty minutes. I'm a twenty four year old male (six feet tall about 150lbs). I haven't done any
    running in a couple of years though I have practiced a mix of strength training and yoga. So I'm not
    completely out of shape but my cardio capacity is very down.

    I have a couple questions. Is this a reasonable goal? What kind of time frame is realistic for
    achieving this goal? Three months? Also, I just ordered a heart rate monitor to help me out. What
    would be some good ways to use the monitor to achieve my goal of 3.25 miles in less than twenty
    minutes? Thanks. -Paul
     
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  2. Al Kubeluis

    Al Kubeluis Guest

    Hi Paul, A 6:09 pace for 3.25 miles seems reasonable for a person of your build and age to achieve
    in 3 months. Since you ran before, you have a feel for running and your basic ability. Since you do
    strength training and yoga, you have body strength, which is helpful to good running form, and good
    flexibility and good breathing technique. You will have to bring your training into the 5:50-6:00
    range to achieve your goal. After an easy mile warmup, time yourself for a mile at about 90% effort
    (hard but not all out). Record this time and use it as a base to guide your future training. You may
    want to just do about a week or two of easy running before doing this mile baseline. I would guess
    that you can do this mile in about 7 to 8 minutes. If it's 9 or 10 minutes, then you may take longer
    to reach your goal. Do a variety of quarter and half mile interval workouts at 6:00 pace, always
    after an easy mile or so warmup. Then add quality 2 and 3 mile runs to your workouts. It is
    essential to rest (= not run) between hard running workouts to give your body recovery time. Rest is
    as important as running because if you do not give your muscles time to recover, you will not
    improve as quickly. Rest at least 1 or 2 or 3 days. Let your body guide you. If you feel sore,
    sluggish, tired, don't run. Since you do strength and yoga, a good cycle may be run one day, yoga
    the next, and strength the third day. A HRM is helpful. You have to establish you max hr
    specifically for running by seeing what your max hr is during intervals and hard miles. As you
    train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves. After a month of
    training you will have a decent fix on your max hr. Then you can fine tune your effort levels using
    your HRM. But let your body and how you feel be your main guide. Have fun training and running. Keep
    us posted on your progress and discoveries. Al Kubeluis

    "paul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I'm starting a running program. My goal is to run around the local park (3.25 miles) in less than
    > twenty minutes. I'm a twenty four year old male (six feet tall about 150lbs). I haven't done any
    > running in a couple of years though I have practiced a mix of strength training and yoga. So I'm
    > not completely out of shape but my cardio capacity is very down.
    >
    > I have a couple questions. Is this a reasonable goal? What kind of time frame is realistic for
    > achieving this goal? Three months? Also, I just ordered a heart rate monitor to help me out. What
    > would be some good ways to use the monitor to achieve my goal of 3.25 miles in less than twenty
    > minutes? Thanks. -Paul
     
  3. In article <[email protected]>, paul wrote:
    > I'm starting a running program. My goal is to run around the local park (3.25 miles) in less than
    > twenty minutes. I'm a twenty four year old male (six feet tall about 150lbs). I haven't done any
    > running in a couple of years though I have practiced a mix of strength training and yoga. So I'm
    > not completely out of shape but my cardio capacity is very down.
    >
    > I have a couple questions. Is this a reasonable goal? What kind of

    Maybe. It's probable that you could do this with some training, but it depends on your level of
    ability and responsiveness to training.

    How much training are you doing at present ?

    > time frame is realistic for achieving this goal?

    No idea.

    > Three months? Also,

    Three days, three months, six months, three years, depending on your level of ability.

    If you post your current training however, it is possible to set reasonable training goals (milage,
    speed work schedule, etc). I think a good training plan would be to spend a few months building up
    to frequent training (6 times per week with one long run for 20 miles/week or more) and then add
    some speed work, and see where you are 6 months from now. Just the milage in itself will bring about
    improvements, so you may actually meet this goal of yours before you even start speed work (in which
    case you'll really need some new and improved goals, a rather nice problem to have ...)

    > I just ordered a heart rate monitor to help me out. What would be some good ways to use the
    > monitor to achieve my goal of 3.25 miles in less than twenty minutes?

    You need to have some idea what your max heart rate is before the monitor is much good to you. You
    can do this by doing a sort of stress test. For example, doing a hard run around the park and
    running the last 800m as fast as possible should give you a pretty good idea what your max is (as
    well as some idea of where you are now).

    For starters, you need to build a base of comfortable running. This means gradually building up
    milage. I'd suggest using the heart rate monitor and staying under 80% of your max heart rate.
    Continue in this manner for a couple of months. As far as pace is concerned, most of your training
    runs around the park should take about 4-5 minutes longer than an all-out effort. So if you can run
    around the park in 22 minutes, a training run should take 26-27 minutes.

    The goal in the early stages should be to just get in consistent milage, and build up to running
    frequently (e.g. 6 times a week).

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  4. In article <[email protected]>, Al Kubeluis wrote:

    Oh boy ...

    > Since you ran before, you have a feel for running and your basic ability. Since you do
    > strength training and yoga, you have body strength, which is helpful to good running form, and
    > good flexibility and good breathing technique. You will have to bring your training into the
    > 5:50-6:00 range to achieve your goal. After an easy mile warmup, time yourself for a mile at
    > about 90% effort (hard but not all out).

    What does "90% effort" mean ? This is too vague to be useful.

    > Record this time and use it as a base to guide your future training. You may want to just do about
    > a week or two of easy running before doing this mile baseline. I would guess that you can do this
    > mile in about 7 to 8 minutes. If it's 9 or 10 minutes, then you may take longer to reach your
    > goal. Do a variety of quarter and half mile interval workouts at 6:00 pace, always after an easy
    > mile or so warmup. Then add quality 2 and 3 mile runs to your workouts.

    Isn't it premature to jump into a full-blown program with intervals and all that when as far as we
    know, he hasn't even built up to running consistently ?

    > It is essential to rest (= not run) between hard running workouts to give your body recovery
    > time. Rest is as important as running because if you do not give your muscles time to recover,
    > you will not improve as quickly. Rest at least 1 or 2 or 3 days.

    What does "at least 1 or 2 or 3 days" mean ?

    If he needs to rest 3 days/week, he's training too hard.

    > Let your body guide you. If you feel sore, sluggish, tired,

    ... then you're training too hard.

    > don't run. Since you do strength and yoga, a good cycle may be run one day, yoga the next, and
    > strength the third day.

    This schedule has him running a grand total of twice a week, and you've also suggested that both of
    those sessions be somewhat anaerobic. Which would be just fine if he were training for a 400. Where
    does he get his aerobic conditioning from ? Are you suggesting he'll be able to run a good 5k by
    sprinting some 400s twice a week and doing yoga/weights ? I'd be surprised if this were the case.

    > A HRM is helpful. You have to establish you max hr specifically for running by seeing what
    > your max hr is during intervals and hard miles. As you train, you will find that your max hr
    > increases since your conditioning improves.

    No it doesn't.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  5. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    "Al Kubeluis" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > As you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.

    Not quite. Your resting HR will decrease, but your max HR will NEVER increase.

    -Phil
     
  6. Al Kubeluis

    Al Kubeluis Guest

    Hi Phil,
    You're theoretically correct, as I believe you are refering to an
    inherent max hr for each individual.
    What I meant to say is that as you train, you will find that the max hr
    you see on your hrm will increase since your conditioning improves and you
    will be able to run harder.
    Al Kubeluis
    "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Al Kubeluis" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    > > As you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.
    >
    > Not quite. Your resting HR will decrease, but your max HR will NEVER increase.
    >
    > -Phil
     
  7. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:40:32 -0500, "Al Kubeluis"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Hi Phil, You're theoretically correct, as I believe you are refering to an inherent max hr for each
    >individual. What I meant to say is that as you train, you will find that the max hr you see on your
    >hrm will increase since your conditioning improves and you will be able to run harder.

    Again, if memory serves, not necessarily true. Many runners can't get there HR's up as high
    the higher their conditioning. Generally this effect is seen in those that are closer to
    their peak conditioning and not a beginer though. However if the individual is following a
    training schedule they shouldn't be seeing higher HR's. They should be holding HR's at a
    certain level, dictated by the purpose of the workouts. In other words once the OP finds
    his/her HR zones he/she should hold those zones and HR for thr workouts. He/she may be going
    faster at those HR's but not with higher HR's. The only possible situation I can see were
    the runner should see higher HR's is in a race were conditions add a few beats, things like
    heat, or if the runner simply is "learning" were his/her max is at. None of which should
    happen very often if ever, especially for a newbie, in training.

    ~Matt

    > Al Kubeluis "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> "Al Kubeluis" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >>
    >> > As you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.
    >>
    >> Not quite. Your resting HR will decrease, but your max HR will NEVER increase.
    >>
    >> -Phil
     
  8. Amh

    Amh Guest

    [email protected] (paul) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > I'm starting a running program. My goal is to run around the local park (3.25 miles) in less than
    > twenty minutes. I'm a twenty four year old male (six feet tall about 150lbs). I haven't done any
    > running in a couple of years though I have practiced a mix of strength training and yoga. So I'm
    > not completely out of shape but my cardio capacity is very down.
    >
    > I have a couple questions. Is this a reasonable goal? What kind of time frame is realistic for
    > achieving this goal? Three months? Also, I just ordered a heart rate monitor to help me out. What
    > would be some good ways to use the monitor to achieve my goal of 3.25 miles in less than twenty
    > minutes? Thanks. -Paul

    Hi Paul,

    3.25 miles in less than 20 minutes is a fairly tall order for a seasoned runner never mind
    a beginner.

    You present many unknowns, how fast are you know, how long can you run for?

    A few tips to know you're headed in the right direction. The nex time you run you should be able to
    run a mile without too much effort. Not that it should be fast. You should be able to complete it
    without thinking about stopping. If you can do that you should be able to run 3 miles in one shot in
    4 weeks of making your runs gradually longer. Now there is a glimmer of hope.

    Once you are assured you are genetically gifted in running endurance you have to find out if you are
    genetically gifted in cardio vascular fitness. Your goal pace is 6:09 or so. Once you are able to
    run 3 miles see how fast you can run 1 mile. If it is anything over 7 minutes give up the goal. You
    may find out that you are a quality runner or not. But it took me 1 year of fairly serious running
    to get down to 6 minute pace.

    For what is worth a HRM is a tool that runners use to train smart. If you manage to get up to 3
    miles in 1 month you won't be training smart to achieve your goal.

    My $0.02 Andy
     
  9. In article <[email protected]>, Al Kubeluis wrote:
    > Hi Phil, You're theoretically correct, as I believe you are refering to an inherent max hr for
    > each individual. What I meant to say is that as you train, you will find that the max hr you see
    > on your hrm will increase since your conditioning improves and you will be able to run harder.

    Still wrong...

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  10. Swstudio

    Swstudio Guest

    "Al Kubeluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > As you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.

    That would be a neat trick. If only it were true!

    cheers,
    --
    David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org
     
  11. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    "Al Kubeluis" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Hi Phil, You're theoretically correct, as I believe you are refering to an inherent max hr for
    > each individual. What I meant to say is that as you train, you will find that the max hr you see
    > on your hrm will increase since your conditioning improves and you will be able to run harder. Al
    > Kubeluis "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> "Al Kubeluis" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >>
    >> > As you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.
    >>
    >> Not quite. Your resting HR will decrease, but your max HR will NEVER increase.
    >>
    >> -Phil

    I'm sorry, but that's not correct. If you actually ever see a MHR get higher, it's because the
    initial calculation was not accurate. It could be that the runner was not motivated enough to
    achieve a true MHR. Then, for whatever mental reason, they had the gonads to take it to the limit.
    Thereby, they would be under the false impression that their MHR had raised, when in fact it did
    not. This has nothing to do with conditioning.

    -Phil
     
  12. >>> > As you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.
    >>>
    >>> Not quite. Your resting HR will decrease, but your max HR will NEVER increase.
    >>>
    >>> -Phil
    >
    >I'm sorry, but that's not correct. If you actually ever see a MHR get

    Wrong again

    http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/maxhr.htm

    Maybe fitness doesn't change it much, but does have a measurable affect, at least in the lab

    Christine
     
  13. In article <[email protected]>, Mark and Christine wrote:
    >>>> > As you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.
    >>>>
    >>>> Not quite. Your resting HR will decrease, but your max HR will NEVER increase.
    >>>>
    >>>> -Phil
    >>
    >>I'm sorry, but that's not correct. If you actually ever see a MHR get
    >
    >
    > Wrong again
    >
    > http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/maxhr.htm
    >
    > Maybe fitness doesn't change it much, but does have a measurable affect, at least in the lab

    Could you give a specific quote from that website that contradicts anything Phil said ? In
    particular, something that says that MHR increases with training ?

    BTW, the source you quote makes several fairly basic errors. The author apparently has no idea what
    "linear" means (despite quoting several linear regression formulas) and no understanding of the
    distinction between "predicting" vs "calculating" MHR.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
  14. You could sell the HRM, and use the money to take a cab ride around the park.
     
  15. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    Mark and Christine <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    >>>> > As you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.
    >>>>
    >>>> Not quite. Your resting HR will decrease, but your max HR will NEVER increase.
    >>>>
    >>>> -Phil
    >>
    >>I'm sorry, but that's not correct. If you actually ever see a MHR get
    >
    >
    > Wrong again
    >
    > http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/maxhr.htm
    >
    > Maybe fitness doesn't change it much, but does have a measurable affect, at least in the lab
    >
    > Christine

    Please tell me where on that site I should be looking. I'm not seeing anything that says your MHR
    will increase with improved conditioning. Thanks.

    -Phil
     
  16. On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:24 GMT, "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Please tell me where on that site I should be looking. I'm not seeing anything that says your MHR
    >will increase with improved conditioning. Thanks.

    Londeree and Moeschberger also looked at other variables to see if

    make any difference but they did find that the MHR was effected by the activity and levels
    of fitness.

    Third paragraph down

    Christine
     
  17. On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:17:17 GMT, Mark and Christine
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:24 GMT, "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Please tell me where on that site I should be looking. I'm not seeing anything that says your MHR
    >>will increase with improved conditioning. Thanks.

    and one more of many...

    While the max HR of most individuals remains stable from month to month, it often drops by 4-8 beats
    in people who take up endurance training after a period of inactivity. Conversely, max HR can rise
    by a similar amount in trained athletes who scale back their training regimen or abandon it
    altogether (Zavorsky, Sports Medicine 29: 13-26,
    2000).

    from

    http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/RBC/heart2.shtml
     
  18. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Al Kubeluis wrote: As
    > you train, you will find that your max hr increases since your conditioning improves.

    Existing studies in a review suggest that HRmax decrease with conditioning. I haven't read the full
    article (or if I have I don't have it at my finger tips) but here's an abstract by author that Sam
    pointed me to back in Sept under "Heart Rate Monitor Strategies". Note: I think people use the term
    HRmax differently and I'm not sure how they define it in this article, but most likely involves some
    testing protocol, hence HRmax may fluctuate a little based on training and type activity. I split
    the most relevant sentence out of the abstract for easy viewing. There may be other more current
    papers and possibly conflicting results.

    > 1: Sports Med. 2000 Jan;29(1):13-26.
    >
    > Evidence and possible mechanisms of altered maximum heart rate with endurance training and
    > tapering.
    >
    > Zavorsky GS.
    >
    > Department of Experimental Medicine, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada.
    > [email protected]
    >
    > Exercise physiologists, coaches and athletes have traditionally used heart rate (HR) to monitor
    > training intensity during exercise. While it is known that aerobic training decreases submaximal
    > HR (HRsubmax) at a given absolute exercise workload, the general consensus is that maximum HR
    > (HRmax) is relatively unaltered regardless of training status in a given population. It has not
    > been seriously postulated as to whether HRmax can change modestly with aerobic
    > training/detraining.

    Despite several sources stating that HRmax is unaltered
    > with training, several studies report that HRmax is reduced following regular aerobic exercise by
    > sedentary adults and endurance athletes, and can increase upon cessation of aerobic exercise.

    Furthermore, evidence suggests that
    > tapering/detraining can increase HRmax. Therefore, it is plausible that some of the same
    > mechanisms that affect both resting and HRsubmax may also play a role in altered HRmax. Some of
    > the proposed mechanisms for changes in HRmax that may occur with aerobic training include
    > autonomic (extrinsic) factors such as plasma volume expansion and(enhanced baroreflex function,
    > while some nonautonomic (intrinsic) factors are alteration of the electrophysiology of the
    > sinoatrial (SA) node and decreased beta-adrenergic receptor number and density. There is a high
    > correlation between changes in both maximal oxygen uptake (VO2 max) and HRmax that occurs with
    > training, tapering and detraining (r= -0.76: p < 0.0001; n = 314), which indicates that as VO2max
    > improves with training, HRmax tends to decrease, and when detraining ensues, HRmax tends to
    > increase. The overall effect of aerobic training and detraining on HRmax is moderate: effect sizes
    > based on several studies were calculated to be -0.48 and +0.54, respectively. Therefore, analysis
    > reveals that HRmax can be altered by 3 to 7% with aerobic training/detraining. However, because of
    > a lack of research in the area of training on HRmax, the reader should remain speculative and
    > allow for cautious interpretation until further, more thorough investigations are carried out as
    > to the confirmation of mechanisms involved. Despite the limitations of using HR and HRmax as a
    > guide to training intensity, the practical implications of monitoring changing HRmax are: (i)
    > prescribed training intensities may be more precisely monitored; and (ii) prevention of
    > overtraining may possibly be enhanced. As such, it may be sensible to monitor HRmax directly in
    > athletes throughout the training year, perhaps at every macrocycle (3 to 6 weeks).

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  19. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Mark and Christine wrote:

    > On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:17:17 GMT, Mark and Christine <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:24 GMT, "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Please tell me where on that site I should be looking. I'm not seeing anything that says your MHR
    >>>will increase with improved conditioning. Thanks.
    >
    >
    >
    > and one more of many...
    >
    > While the max HR of most individuals remains stable from month to month, it often drops by 4-8
    > beats in people who take up endurance training after a period of inactivity. Conversely, max HR
    > can rise by a similar amount in trained athletes who scale back their training regimen or abandon
    > it altogether (Zavorsky, Sports Medicine 29: 13-26,
    > 2000).
    >
    > from
    >
    > http://faculty.washington.edu/crowther/Misc/RBC/heart2.shtml

    Right, according to the abstract that I posted the max HR *decreases* with training there is nothing
    on these pages to say it *increases* with conditioning.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  20. In article <[email protected]>, Mark and Christine wrote:

    > Londeree and Moeschberger also looked at other variables to see if

    > make any difference but they did find that the MHR was effected by the activity and levels of
    > fitness.
    >
    > Third paragraph down

    I think the author meant "affected". They don't say how MHR was "effected", but I wouldn't trust
    someone who doesn't know what a regression line is to interpret the literature. I couldn't find
    those authors on pubmed btw.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
     
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