New Shimano XT, WTF?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Qi, Mar 14, 2004.

  1. Qi

    Qi Guest

    Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled the
    price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
    shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
    Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
    many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create a
    new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
    believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts from a
    manufacturer who will not provide replacement parts 5 years
    down the line, creating the need for constant upgrades.
    Passively screwing the consumer like this is wrong. I hope
    more people will turn to other component manufactures for
    bicycle parts. Shimano is slowly creating the niche for
    other companies to steal there business by providing quality
    components at lower prices.

    Maybe one day..

    -Qi
     
    Tags:


  2. Mseries

    Mseries Guest

    Qi wrote:
    > Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
    > the price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
    > shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
    > Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
    > many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create a
    > new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
    > believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts from
    > a manufacturer who will not provide replacement parts 5
    > years down the line, creating the need for constant
    > upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like this is
    > wrong. I hope more people will turn to other component
    > manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is slowly creating
    > the niche for other companies to steal there business by
    > providing quality components at lower prices.
    >
    >
    >
    > Maybe one day..
    >
    >
    >
    > -Qi

    Its not just Shimano though, check out the prices of Campag
    Record 10 Speed rear mechs. Shimano does have a large amount
    of backward compatibility, I have pieces from 1987 and 2003
    working together properly. This happens in all industries
    unfortunately, look at PCs, try to upgrade a 5 year old one
    cheaply, you will almost certainly need to buy more parts
    than you need because of incompatibilities
     
  3. Kinky Cowboy

    Kinky Cowboy Guest

    On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:04:31 -0700, "Qi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled the
    >price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
    >shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
    >Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
    >many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create a
    >new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
    >believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts from
    >a manufacturer who will not provide replacement parts 5
    >years down the line, creating the need for constant
    >upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like this is
    >wrong. I hope more people will turn to other component
    >manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is slowly creating
    >the niche for other companies to steal there business by
    >providing quality components at lower prices.
    >
    >
    >
    >Maybe one day..
    >
    >
    >
    >-Qi

    There are plenty of quality cranksets from other people
    below XT price point, though for my money LX is best value.
    Bear in mind that the new XT price is for cranks and BB, and
    over here the M761 combo is less than 20% more than the old
    M752/ES71 combo. M76x "dual control" STI units are about 33%
    more than M75x. As not much else has changed, the overall
    cost of the groupset to OEMs has probably gone up about 10%
    for the V-brake version and less than that for the disc
    version. The new XT is for people who can't afford XTR,
    whereas in the old days XT was for people who wanted an even
    more refined Deore than LX purchasers. People already turn
    to others when Shimano doesn't provide best value solutions,
    just look at how many brakesets Tektro sells, or at the
    other end of the scale, a quick count in the car park
    suggests that Hope have more of the disc brake aftermarket
    than Shimano here in the UK.

    Kinky Cowboy*

    *Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts Your
    milage may vary
     
  4. Walter Mitty

    Walter Mitty Guest

    "MSeries" <[email protected]> brightened my day with his incisive
    wit when in news:[email protected] he
    conjectured that:

    > Qi wrote:
    >> Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
    >> the price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
    >> shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
    >> Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
    >> many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create
    >> a new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
    >> believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts
    >> from a manufacturer who will not provide replacement
    >> parts 5 years down the line, creating the need for
    >> constant upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like
    >> this is wrong. I hope more people will turn to other
    >> component manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is
    >> slowly creating the niche for other companies to steal
    >> there business by providing quality components at lower
    >> prices.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Maybe one day..
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> -Qi
    >
    > Its not just Shimano though, check out the prices of
    > Campag Record 10 Speed rear mechs.

    You can't compare. Campag are (or at least around here!),
    are almost never on mass produced bikes. Shimano are. You
    can find XT on conveyor belt bikes through to hand built top
    of the line : they have a far wider market penetration.

    Shimano are going down the Microsoft route.

    Campag have a great rep for providing spares etc.
     
  5. qi-<< Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost
    tripled the price of some of their XT items? >><BR><BR>

    Try to find a ES-70 series BB for the XT or LX crank in
    about 3 months...

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
    costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  6. Chris B .

    Chris B . Guest

    On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:04:31 -0700, "Qi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled the
    >price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
    >shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
    >Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
    >many mountain bikers.

    Not charging an arm and a leg for the upper tier groups
    contributed to putting Suntour out of business. Once you get
    away from the real low end stuff, group level is mostly for
    show anyway and plenty of people *want* to spend more for
    the exclusivity. They may be seen to complain but they'll
    cough up the money in the end. Perhaps where you live,
    people aren't buying $50k SUVs based on $18-20k pickups but
    the situation is different where I am. A hundred extra bucks
    here and there on a bicycle is small potatoes.

    >Shimano's marketing plan to create a new standard every
    >other year is growing old. I don't believe it is
    >responsible for a consumer to buy parts from a manufacturer
    >who will not provide replacement parts 5 years down the
    >line, creating the need for constant upgrades. Passively
    >screwing the consumer like this is wrong.

    People demand crap that is thrown out instead of repaired,
    partly because they find comfort in buying new shit so
    often. With time, the size of objects deemed to be
    throwaway items has increased (watches -> toasters -> large
    appliances -> ???).

    Making items that last 5 times as long and charging 10%
    more for them is simply not a good way to stay in
    business nowadays.

    >I hope more people will turn to other component
    >manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is slowly creating
    >the niche for other companies to steal there business by
    >providing quality components at lower prices.

    Shimano, like Microsoft, has the OEM market wrapped up and
    that's all they really need to worry about. Frequently
    changing the 'standards' and forcing the so-called
    aftermarket companies to continually redesign around their
    whims keeps those companies off balance and away from being
    a serious OEM contender.

    Still, Shimano doesn't seem to be as sharp as they used to
    be - look at how long it has taken for Shimano to respond to
    the Freeride(tm)/Downhill market.
     
  7. Evan Evans

    Evan Evans Guest

    Thats why we have ebay ! Replacement parts are always
    available for most anything. I even placed a bid on some of
    Campys highly successful SGR pedals just last week. I need a
    good door stop!
     
  8. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    > On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:04:31 -0700, "Qi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
    >> the price of some of their XT items? (i.e. crankset and
    >> shifters) I personally believe this is a bad move for
    >> Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the price range of
    >> many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create
    >> a new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
    >> believe it is responsible for a consumer to buy parts
    >> from a manufacturer who will not provide replacement
    >> parts 5 years down the line, creating the need for
    >> constant upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like
    >> this is wrong. I hope more people will turn to other
    >> component manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano is
    >> slowly creating the niche for other companies to steal
    >> there business by providing quality components at lower
    >> prices.

    There's plenty of competition already. And these days, the
    MTB market is so competitive that product managers are quick
    to spec bikes for best value. *All* the gear seems to work
    really well these days -- the only difference between high
    end and low end is a little weight, or if you go way down
    the ladder, how well the bearings are sealed. There's plenty
    of non-Shimano stuff that competes on weight, style, and
    function at a much lower price -- like Tektro brakes,
    Truvativ cranks, and private label stuff.

    The only reason to complain is if you really want the "XT"
    brand name on your bike, and you're upset because you can't
    afford it anymore. It's just a brand. Some people do want
    that, and are willing to pay for it. More power to 'em, and
    to Shimano for being smart enough to go after their money.

    Matt O.
     
  9. Chris

    Chris Guest

    "Qi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...
    > Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
    > the price of some
    of
    > their XT items? (i.e. crankset and shifters) I personally
    > believe this is
    a
    > bad move for Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the
    > price range of many mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing
    > plan to create a new standard every other year is growing
    > old. I don't believe it is responsible for a
    consumer
    > to buy parts from a manufacturer who will not provide
    > replacement parts 5 years down the line, creating the
    > need for constant upgrades. Passively screwing the
    > consumer like this is wrong. I hope more people will turn
    > to other component manufactures for bicycle parts.
    > Shimano is slowly creating the niche for other companies
    > to steal there business by providing quality components
    > at lower prices.
    >

    Not to defend Shimano, but they didn't triple the price of
    existing parts, they introduced completely new technology
    (STI shifting and integrated BB) at the XT level. I'm not
    convinced it's worth it, but the new stuff is always
    outrageously expensive.

    Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
    thumbshifters (or so I've heard) which, allegedly, have not
    gone up in price.

    Yes, they phase out older stuff that works fine, but their
    argument is without pushing a tech envelope things will
    never progress...even if I feel the XT thumbshifters are
    perfect (which I do) and $400 cranksets are insane (which
    I do) I understand their rationale. I don't like it one
    bit, though, and that's why my shifters and derailleurs
    are the only Shimano parts on my bike. And they'll stay
    there until they self-destruct, and I'll probably replace
    them with SRAM.

    Chris
     
  10. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Qi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:pvidna0zO8UZsMndRVn-
    > [email protected]
    > > Did anybody else notice that Shimano has almost tripled
    > > the price of
    some
    > of
    > > their XT items? (i.e. crankset and shifters) I
    > > personally believe this
    is
    > a
    > > bad move for Shimano, as it pushes XT parts out of the
    > > price range of
    many
    > > mountain bikers. Shimano's marketing plan to create a
    > > new standard every other year is growing old. I don't
    > > believe it is responsible for a
    > consumer
    > > to buy parts from a manufacturer who will not provide
    > > replacement parts
    5
    > > years down the line, creating the need for constant
    > > upgrades. Passively screwing the consumer like this is
    > > wrong. I hope more people will turn
    to
    > > other component manufactures for bicycle parts. Shimano
    > > is slowly
    creating
    > > the niche for other companies to steal there business by
    > > providing
    quality
    > > components at lower prices.
    > >
    >
    > Not to defend Shimano, but they didn't triple the price of
    > existing parts, they introduced completely new technology
    > (STI shifting and integrated BB) at the XT level. I'm not
    > convinced it's worth it, but the new stuff is always
    > outrageously expensive.

    There is nothing new about the integrated crank/BB. And I'd
    hardly say that Dual Control is a completely new technology.

    > Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
    > thumbshifters (or so I've heard) which, allegedly, have
    > not gone up in price.

    Do you mean Rapidfire or are Shimano really making
    thumbshifters?

    Dave
     
  11. Ian G Batten

    Ian G Batten Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Chris <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
    > thumbshifters (or so I've heard) which, allegedly, have
    > not gone up in price.

    They're fitted to, for example, the 2004 Marin Mount Vision,
    which since it's sold as ``2004 XT'' or somesuch makes me
    think that the shifters aren't just old stock.

    Shimano might live to regret moving all their upmarket
    shifters to dual control, as presumably that makes it
    harder to fit non-Shimano brakes. It does appear that a lot
    of purchasers prefer non-Shimano brakes, and Shimano have
    to hope that preference isn't as strong as their desire for
    the latest and greatest Shimano shifters (and shifters
    which operate completely differently to before, as well).
    That's the sort of move that SRAM must be quite happy
    about, as they'll drive a lot of punters who want Hope,
    Hayes, Magura or whatever brakes, or want Rapid-fire type
    shifting, straight over to SRAM. Or to LX, which isn't
    exactly boffo-margin.

    ian
     
  12. * onefred

    > Do you mean Rapidfire or are Shimano really making
    > thumbshifters?

    There will be Rapidfire+ levers in the 2005 XT group. Still
    only "low normal" rear derailleurs, though. :-(

    Stein
     
  13. Rocketman58

    Rocketman58 Guest

    > > Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
    > > thumbshifters (or so I've heard) which, allegedly, have
    > > not gone up in price.
    >
    > Do you mean Rapidfire or are Shimano really making
    > thumbshifters?
    >
    He (and others) often refer to Rapid Fire as
    "Thumbshifters". Must be because you use your thumb.
    Shimano does not make Thumbshifters anymore. It was
    difficult to sell people new shifters when the old ones
    would not wear out...
     
  14. Kinky Cowboy

    Kinky Cowboy Guest

    On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:30:51 GMT, Chris B.
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Shimano, like Microsoft, has the OEM market wrapped up and
    >that's all they really need to worry about. Frequently
    >changing the 'standards' and forcing the so-called
    >aftermarket companies to continually redesign around their
    >whims keeps those companies off balance and away from being
    >a serious OEM contender.

    True for shifters and derailleurs, but look at how many
    bikes are sold with non-shimano cranks, brakes, chains,
    cassettes, hubs, and Shimano are practically non-existent in
    headsets and seatposts. Compared with MS having 90% of both
    the desktop OS and office suite markets, Shimano don't look
    to be trying hard enough!

    Bizarrely, my mountain bikes have Shimano cranks (LX) and
    brakes (XT discs), where there is most competition, and are
    otherwise devoid of Shimano parts.

    Kinky Cowboy*

    *Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts Your
    milage may vary
     
  15. Chris B .

    Chris B . Guest

    On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:23:38 GMT, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:30:51 GMT, Chris B. <[email protected]
    >rogers.com> wrote:
    >
    >>Shimano, like Microsoft, has the OEM market wrapped up and
    >>that's all they really need to worry about. Frequently
    >>changing the 'standards' and forcing the so-called
    >>aftermarket companies to continually redesign around their
    >>whims keeps those companies off balance and away from
    >>being a serious OEM contender.
    >
    >True for shifters and derailleurs, but look at how many
    >bikes are sold with non-shimano cranks, brakes, chains,
    >cassettes, hubs, and Shimano are practically non-existent
    >in headsets and seatposts. Compared with MS having 90% of
    >both the desktop OS and office suite markets, Shimano don't
    >look to be trying hard enough!

    This is true and I stand partially corrected, at least with
    respect to mountain bikes.

    Still, while it's not uncommon to see new MTBs equipped with
    say, Truvative cranks, you'll notice that they use one of
    the two silly Shimano 4-bolt BCDs and are meant to be used
    with Shimano front shifters and derailers.

    Certainly you are right about MTB brakes; Tektro and to some
    extent Avid have obviously made inroads here and Shimano was
    a bit sluggish in bringing disc brakes to market. This is
    why it is so smart to integrate the shifter and brake lever
    - look how many people got burned when they wanted to put
    V-brakes on their older MTB (possibly because of the
    addition of a suspension fork) after they had plunked down
    the extra dosh for XT or XTR.

    I wasn't aware that mostly Shimano equipped bikes generally
    came equipped with Shimano chains but I'll admit that I
    wasn't aware of all these non-Shimano cassettes (who makes
    them?). Still, I would assume that these cassettes are
    designed with Shimano's Freehub specs in mind and that means
    that you-know-who ultimately sets the standard.

    You are also right about the headset and seatpost market; I
    don't think Shimano have made seatposts for a while for
    whatever reason (I happen to have an old steel XT 27mm post
    kicking around - it's a heavy sucker!). Regarding headsets,
    I seem to recall that Shimano wouldn't license the Aheadset
    design and so they effectively shut themselves out of the
    MTB market and some of the road bike market as well. As with
    them being rather slow to respond to the Trials and Mountain
    Dew crowd as I mentioned previously, I think they made a mis-
    step here but they still dictate most of what goes on with
    the drivetrain on most bikes and that will be a difficult
    challenge for a competitor (like Sachs/SRAM and the 2:1
    system and who I don't hear much about anymore) to overcome.

    >Bizarrely, my mountain bikes have Shimano cranks (LX) and
    >brakes (XT discs), where there is most competition, and are
    >otherwise devoid of Shimano parts.

    I like the Deore V-brake I have on one bike and am
    reasonably satisfied with the XT V on another (this bike has
    a wide tire mounted on a narrow rim - ideal for use with the
    Parallel-Push linkage). I won't touch Shimano cranks made in
    the past few years because of the silly BCD nonsense, the
    often changing (and IMO mediocre) spline designs and
    interchangability shenanigans I have heard about like
    Shimano apparently changing the required BB axle length for
    the 2003 LX cranks so that the XT BB couldn't be used (or
    something).

    What Shimano makes that I very much like are their hubs,
    though I also like their UN52/72 bottom brackets. Adjusted
    properly, their hubs seem to stay smooth and last for ages -
    for this I am willing to overlook some of their other
    bullshit. I hope they keep it up because I intend to stay as
    far away from cartridge bearing hubs and BBs as possible.
     
  16. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    "rocketman58" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > > Shimano is still making, for now, 2002-style XT
    > > > thumbshifters (or so
    I've
    > > > heard) which, allegedly, have not gone up in price.
    > >
    > > Do you mean Rapidfire or are Shimano really making
    > > thumbshifters?
    > >
    > He (and others) often refer to Rapid Fire as
    > "Thumbshifters". Must be because you use your thumb.
    > Shimano does not make Thumbshifters anymore. It was
    > difficult to sell people new shifters when the old ones
    > would not wear out...

    I bet that if you went to Japan, you'd fly into Tokyo. While
    there, I also bet you could find Shimano making
    thumbshifters for their home market. Maybe not, after all,
    Osaka is another popular destination, but it wouldn't
    surprise me.

    Dave
     
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