new style training

[leanman]

as a 55 year old vetern racer, and i imagine i'll be winding down in the next few years, i was wondering if this new way of training is worth trying.( i'm thinking about doing this) i read on a this dudes website, he turns the traditional training ways upside down.( fall / winter) after his bit of a break after the long training/racing year, he starts up again with a month of riding. then he goes right into 20 minute hard tempo trainer rides. warm up , do his few sprints, then does his 20 minute hard ride.. a few sessions of these a week, along with ez spinning.. then a month or two later he does two 20 minute sessions..
does this all fall/winter. then he ads on the "far" after all the hard stuff, meaning he finds it ezier to ride the long miles after he's pretty fit. a few reasons. its warmer on the trainer during the winter months. its more intense, and he feels too much traditional long base miles all wrapped up against the cold is just slowly draining his fitness. he dosent want to loose what he worked so hard for. when he feels he is a bit tired he takes an ez week..
workouts last an hour..
then in march april when its warming up he does his longer rides.
kinda backwards from the way i do it, and i here its the long standing traditional way.( long miles in fall/winter)
so i am thinking about trying this..an hour isnt too much to burn him out, and the progress is just great. and when he tires, its an ez week.
this sounds good.. i was just hoping for comments..
the dude's an age division national champ too..
thanks

 

[daveryanwyoming]

A whole lot of folks around here use very similar programs. Search SST (Sweet Spot Training) both here and in general on the web. Or read Charles Howe's power training guide: http://www.freewebs.com/velodynamics2/rcgtp1.pdf

No you don't need a power meter to use these concepts. It's all about what you're describing and it builds on what Arthur Lydiard did for years with runners. IOW, it's all about building a strong aerobic engine with focused Sub-Threshold work as a way to build sustainable power.

From that base you can take in a lot of different directions depending on your target events but whether you use old school LSD miles or new school SST training one way or another you want to build a solid base of sustainable power and metabolic fitness, new school just does it in very time efficient ways for us working stiffs.

Here's some other good stuff to look at:
VELODYNAMICS - Technical services for road cyclists

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[leanman]

hey dave, thanks man...
arthur l. i had his shoes in 1970-1974 then we couldnt buy them aymore.
kangaroo skin with a small red diamond on the side..great shoes..
man i miss running, but i'm a cyclist now... well, just a cat 2 average one..
anyway, i am going to try this new approach.. its new to me.
i'm going to spend 1 day a week outside on sunday while its still warm( 40-50's) for my long weekly ride)and 1 day a week doing this hard 20 minute effort working up to 2, then per this young stud, he also incorporates some 5 minute very very hard efforts in there too. 4-6 of them. and like he says, when he's tired, he rests a week..guys fit and good year roung from what i read on his site..
i heard of the sweet spot training, but it sounds like from what i read he really hits these 20 minute sessions hard..
85-90% of max heart rate..
then even harder when he gets fitter. i am trying this..
thanks for the reply

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Yeah, sweet spot isn't easy at all. It's just 'sweet' in the sense that it's hard enough work to encourage metabolic adaptations but easy enough work that you can actually finish a few 20 - 30 minute efforts per session and do sessions like this several times a week to rack up a lot of quality time. Think of them as mini time trials backed off just enough that you can do the full set and do them again without dreading the upcoming workouts.

The 5 minute stuff targets VO2 Max and is harder yet. Those buggers really hurt and you want to be careful about introducing them too soon or trying to do them too often as they're reallll uncomfortable efforts ( you should hit maximal and ragged breathing about 2.5 minutes into these 5 minute efforts and be hanging on for dear life to finish them). Most folks on the SST/Coggan/Lydiard plan spend a whole lot more time working on the Threshold and Sweet Spot stuff and save the VO2 Max efforts till spring when races draw nearer.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[leanman]

yes, i know the 4 or 5 minute effort really hurts... but they work big time. and as always, when you feel tired, rest.. 3 weeks on 1 week of ez riding, i see no way of burning out.. mentally or physically..
we're all different, but this guy does it all and it works for him. 20 minute efforts, 5 minute efforts.. he just gives himself plenty rest(2-3 days) between each session..
we'll see. i often wondered how you could burn out if you do a very hard one monday then another very hard one friday.. thats a lot of ez spinning in between.
makes a bit of sense too, as there are very good racers that train hard 1 day a week, then race sat or sunday year round.. road, cycle cross and mt.. so thats the 2 very intense days a week..only way to find out if it works for me is try it.
whats it like in wyoming? cold i bet..
thanks

 

[Alex Simmons]

yes, i know the 4 or 5 minute effort really hurts... but they work big time. and as always, when you feel tired, rest.. 3 weeks on 1 week of ez riding, i see no way of burning out.. mentally or physically..
we're all different, but this guy does it all and it works for him. 20 minute efforts, 5 minute efforts.. he just gives himself plenty rest(2-3 days) between each session..
we'll see. i often wondered how you could burn out if you do a very hard one monday then another very hard one friday.. thats a lot of ez spinning in between.
makes a bit of sense too, as there are very good racers that train hard 1 day a week, then race sat or sunday year round.. road, cycle cross and mt.. so thats the 2 very intense days a week..only way to find out if it works for me is try it.
whats it like in wyoming? cold i bet..
thanks

In my mind, if you are winter locked indoors a bit, then doing shorter sharper workouts makes far more sense than LSD. Actually it makes more sense than LSD no matter the weather

Doing 4-5 min efforts won't kill you, it's OK to do a few randomly scattered, just not a dedicated block of such work. However, if you want to lift FTP and it's not moving through doing SST/FTP work, then you'll likely need to induce a few changes through shorter harder stuff for a while (assuming you are not overly fatigued of course). Also 4-5 min efforts don't have to be full gas either.

It's all aerobic and won't be bad for you.

It's good to do a bit of everthing all the time, it's when you do dedicated blocks of work that you need to be a bit more careful.

In any case, if you are not sure, we can do a plan for you.

 

[leanman]

thanks for all the help and replies..
maybe 2010 will be a good year.. just wish i was a bit younger.

 

[Felt_Rider]

In my mind, if you are winter locked indoors a bit, then doing shorter sharper workouts makes far more sense than LSD. Actually it makes more sense than LSD no matter the weather

Doing 4-5 min efforts won't kill you, it's OK to do a few randomly scattered, just not a dedicated block of such work. However, if you want to lift FTP and it's not moving through doing SST/FTP work, then you'll likely need to induce a few changes through shorter harder stuff for a while (assuming you are not overly fatigued of course). Also 4-5 min efforts don't have to be full gas either.

It's all aerobic and won't be bad for you.

It's good to do a bit of everthing all the time, it's when you do dedicated blocks of work that you need to be a bit more careful.

In any case, if you are not sure, we can do a plan for you.

I would like to be on that plan going into our winter season.
I was a bit concerned with getting into the LSD or junk miles mode, but I hope that a little variety and training outdoors in the cold will keep me mentally happy rather than just sitting on the trainer all the time.

At the moment I am training indoors with intervals during the weekdays because it works with the work schedule, but on the weekends I am enjoying and hope to enjoy riding with the gang on the weekends at a moderate pace or somewhere around a 0.65 to 0.75 IF. I have become more disciplined to control my effort (except for yesterday ) in group rides by using the power meter and ignoring the impromptu hammerfests. It has finally sunk in that type of aggressive group riding does a lot of damage to being consistent with my training.

Since I have no intention of racing I count my Saturday group rides as just enjoying cycling rather than call it a training event. But I do hope to improve by next spring even as a recreational cyclist.

Fingers crossed and hopeful that I will be on track for next spring.

 

[dhk2]

Felt, your club ride description sounds like some I do here. It may be just a club ride for the faster guys, but for many of us it's road-race intensity trying to stay on until the finish. Rather than chasing the leaders all the time, believe you're smart in riding these at your own pace during the off-season. It just doesn't make sense to practice disciplined training during the week, then kill yourself on the weekend hammer-fests (which according to your training program really should be L2/L3 endurance rides).

 

[frost]

Felt, your club ride description sounds like some I do here. It may be just a club ride for the faster guys, but for many of us it's road-race intensity trying to stay on until the finish. Rather than chasing the leaders all the time, believe you're smart in riding these at your own pace during the off-season. It just doesn't make sense to practice disciplined training during the week, then kill yourself on the weekend hammer-fests (which according to your training program really should be L2/L3 endurance rides).

Well, on the other hand, for someone who doesn't race, it is a unique opportunity to "dig deeper than you ever thought you could go". Among the people I ride with in real life, every single one says that they cannot get all out without the number on the back or someone chasing or someone to chase.

Not to say that it is good training too often.

 

[Alex Simmons]

The trick with group rides is to make them work for you.

If they are not hard enough, then play some cat and mouse - drop off the back and chase. Or agree with the others to stay on the front for a long pull

If they are too hard, then practice your drafting skills but also be prepared to check your ego at the door when you leave.

On other days, it's just another form of SST.

Best to have small groups. 6-8 is really sweet, you get good solid riding in, can do some paceline work but sit on if you need to. Big bunches generally suck as far as training is concerned.

The nice thing about having the power meter is that you get a good sense via NP & TSS as to how it fits in with your overall plan. You then learn to adapt and adjust depending on the group that day.

What I would often do is ride solo to a place where I knew a group would come past. I'd get 2/3rds of my ride at an effort level I wanted, but also get a bit of bunch riding for enjoyment. Or leave 10-15-min ahead of them and let them catch you eventually.

Just get creative.

 

[Felt_Rider]

The trick with group rides is to make them work for you.

If they are not hard enough, then play some cat and mouse - drop off the back and chase. Or agree with the others to stay on the front for a long pull

If they are too hard, then practice your drafting skills but also be prepared to check your ego at the door when you leave.

On other days, it's just another form of SST.

Best to have small groups. 6-8 is really sweet, you get good solid riding in, can do some paceline work but sit on if you need to. Big bunches generally suck as far as training is concerned.

The nice thing about having the power meter is that you get a good sense via NP & TSS as to how it fits in with your overall plan. You then learn to adapt and adjust depending on the group that day.

What I would often do is ride solo to a place where I knew a group would come past. I'd get 2/3rds of my ride at an effort level I wanted, but also get a bit of bunch riding for enjoyment. Or leave 10-15-min ahead of them and let them catch you eventually.

Just get creative.

Thanks Alex for your input.
I think I am on track based on your thoughts or at least getting better at it.

Below is my ride notice for a group ride a couple weeks ago and notice that I put in that I would be doing a moderate pace. We had 14 guys show up and the group split in half, but I stayed with my word for a moderate pace, used my power meter to control my intensity and 6 of the guys stayed with me instead of chasing the bunch.

email ride notice from two weeks ago
Start Location: Brewery parking
Start Time: 8:30 (Those needing to stop at the T/A can start with me at 8:20 and we will wait for the group)
Route distance: 57 miles
Route description: flat to rolling hills
Store stop: Fairmont close to mile 40 (since the store is late into the ride we can take a brief stop at a safe spot along the road if a rest break is needed)
Route leader: None ( I will probably be riding at a moderate pace, you can stay with me or go your own pace - map is provided at the link below)


Mapmyride Link
MapMyRide.com | View 09/12/2009 Brewery Route in Cartersville, Georgia

_________________________________________

Here is the result of my ride as written on my blog. Blog Report

I am getting better at keeping my discipline on the group rides and being the organizer of the rides helps as well. I have become content to ride solo when things get out of hand and let them quickly ride out of sight. I ended with 0.76 IF for that ride, but I am finding that range I can recover and be ready to train again the next day. Although I was trying to hit 0.7 IF.

On Sunday I completely blew it by racing with 3 strangers in the last 10 miles of an active recovery ride and ended with 0.8 IF. This morning I was pretty stiff in a spin class trying to work out some of the soreness. I am supposed to do SST tonight and I think I am going to be too sore to get to that level. So I am still not as disciplined as I need to be.

 

[swampy1970]

Felt,

If you're classing yourself as someone who isn't going to race then I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about swapping the workouts around and having some fun.

Instead of starting off as hard as you would in your SST ride, start with the first 10 minutes at active recovery pace and see how the legs feel. Slowly ramp it up for for the last (if you're doing sets of 20minutes) and decide if it's go or no go. Sometimes it takes a while for the legs to get going if you went hard the day before and I normally find that despite starting off feeling like crud I end up feeling better than normal at the end.

You've already got some good training in the back from yesterday so even if your legs feel dead you're getting some recovery time in on the bike...

 

[Felt_Rider]

Felt,

If you're classing yourself as someone who isn't going to race then I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about swapping the workouts around and having some fun.

Instead of starting off as hard as you would in your SST ride, start with the first 10 minutes at active recovery pace and see how the legs feel. Slowly ramp it up for for the last (if you're doing sets of 20minutes) and decide if it's go or no go. Sometimes it takes a while for the legs to get going if you went hard the day before and I normally find that despite starting off feeling like crud I end up feeling better than normal at the end.

You've already got some good training in the back from yesterday so even if your legs feel dead you're getting some recovery time in on the bike...

That is pretty much the plan I followed last night after reading your post. I warmed up 10 minutes, but when I started ramping up the effort after the warm up the legs were doing good to hold 200 watts.

That is the beauty of not being a competitor. I can live and train by a more relaxed set of rules.

 

[swampy1970]

That is pretty much the plan I followed last night after reading your post. I warmed up 10 minutes, but when I started ramping up the effort after the warm up the legs were doing good to hold 200 watts.

That is the beauty of not being a competitor. I can live and train by a more relaxed set of rules.

If you plan properly, even when you're training for competition, you don't have to nail every session down to an exact schedule, done at an exact level.

Life happens.

Sometimes you're sick, sometimes you went too hard at the weekend and you have 'wooden legs', sometimes you get to meet up with some guys that you've not ridden with for years on a day you're supposed to be taking it easy or really hard... You get the idea. If it's an exception rather than the rule then it's all good.

If it's the rule rather than an exception then ditch the powermeter and spend the money on a nice TV...