New to riding, sore knees

[Matt-itude]

Now ive only ridden 400km on my Trek 1000, but today on a rather long ride, ive noticed i have pretty sore knees.

I have been squatting at the gym, and my bike has toe straps.

Would converting to clipless pedals help this, and could my riding technique effect my knees?

Thanks for all you help

 

[Matt-itude]

oh and also what id like to know, is that will this stop occuring over time when i start doin more km's? cos when i first started, my lower back hurt and now it seems to be getting better and better

 

[Peelay]

oh and also what id like to know, is that will this stop occuring over time when i start doin more km's? cos when i first started, my lower back hurt and now it seems to be getting better and better

What part of the knee hurts? Is it the front, over the knee cap (Patellar Tendon)? One common problem (I'm no medical expert here) is new riders tend to "mash" the big gears which puts a lot of strain on the knee. Riding in a big gear isn't necessarily wrong but it takes well trained legs to sustain that kind of effort and to avoid injury. The trend has been to lower your gear and pedal at a higher speed (spin) to attain the same speed. You'll find this much easier on the knees. Depending on how new you are, it could just be an overuse issue and it will take a while to build up the conditioning to get your knees and supporting muscles used to cycling. Also, be sure to have your bike fitted by someone who knows what they're doing at your local bike shop. A seat that's a 1/2 inch too low can make all the difference

Pay attention to it now though, to completely ignore it could be asking for bigger problems later. (I tore part of my patellar tendon, it's not fun). Anyway, there's my 2 cents made on some pretty big assumptions. If you have anymore detail on the type of pain and where the pain is post it as I'm sure it will help in the advice you get.

 

[Matt-itude]

What part of the knee hurts? Is it the front, over the knee cap (Patellar Tendon)? One common problem (I'm no medical expert here) is new riders tend to "mash" the big gears which puts a lot of strain on the knee. Riding in a big gear isn't necessarily wrong but it takes well trained legs to sustain that kind of effort and to avoid injury. The trend has been to lower your gear and pedal at a higher speed (spin) to attain the same speed. You'll find this much easier on the knees. Depending on how new you are, it could just be an overuse issue and it will take a while to build up the conditioning to get your knees and supporting muscles used to cycling. Also, be sure to have your bike fitted by someone who knows what they're doing at your local bike shop. A seat that's a 1/2 inch too low can make all the difference

Pay attention to it now though, to completely ignore it could be asking for bigger problems later. (I tore part of my patellar tendon, it's not fun). Anyway, there's my 2 cents made on some pretty big assumptions. If you have anymore detail on the type of pain and where the pain is post it as I'm sure it will help in the advice you get.

yes the pain does seem to be around that area, so is it just too much stress on the joint from the squats and improper riding technique. So will the pain stop once my legs adjust to riding, or should i just try to ride in a lower gear?

i got my bike professionally fitted by the guy at my lbs so i don't think thats the problem.

thanks for ur reply

 

[dhk]

oh and also what id like to know, is that will this stop occuring over time when i start doin more km's? cos when i first started, my lower back hurt and now it seems to be getting better and better

Peelay has some good advice for you. It's important now to go slow and not hurt your knees more; knee injuries can be with you forever.

I'd stop the squats in the gym while you're riding. And instead of more km's, you need to do less until the pain is gone. Keep the cadence up around 80-90 rpm so you don't have to mash down on the pedals.

"Riding through the pain" with longer rides isn't what you want to do. Your legs may be strong from the gym, but joints and ligaments are going to take 4-6 months and a few 1000 km's to adapt to cycling.

 

[Matt-itude]

Peelay has some good advice for you. It's important now to go slow and not hurt your knees more; knee injuries can be with you forever.

I'd stop the squats in the gym while you're riding. And instead of more km's, you need to do less until the pain is gone. Keep the cadence up around 80-90 rpm so you don't have to mash down on the pedals.

"Riding through the pain" with longer rides isn't what you want to do. Your legs may be strong from the gym, but joints and ligaments are going to take 4-6 months and a few 1000 km's to adapt to cycling.

well i need to do the squats to build up my strength for running, so i will keep doin those, instead the advice is to do less riding?

how much less should i do... and when can i start stepping up the kms?

 

[Peelay]

well i need to do the squats to build up my strength for running, so i will keep doin those, instead the advice is to do less riding?

how much less should i do... and when can i start stepping up the kms?

Everyone is different. Most importantly listen to your knees (and body in general). As dhk mentions, this is not the kind of pain you want to "ride through". You'll probably find it extremely frustrating to lower the kms or take a rest, but I can tell you from experience that having to stay off my bike for 6 months followed by another 6 months of physiotherapy is even more frustrating.
There are a number of good stretches out there that can help as well. Unfortuneately I can't exactly show them to you hear. Perhaps a trainer or physio at your gym can give you some. Things like your IT band can have a tendance to get very tight as a result. Proper warm up and cool down in general are very important when it comes to injury prevention. Don't neglect them!

As for being determined to stay with the squats, I'd be careful there. Weight training is good, but improper squatting technique can kill knees. I believe I read once that Chris Carmichael doesn't let Lance do squats because of the risk involved. There are safer ways to work the same muscle groups, but that may just be an opinion. (don't want to get into a steel vs alu vs carbon argument here hehe).

Well, that's about exhausted my knowlege in the field, hope it's been helpful!

Cheers,
Phill

 

[Matt-itude]

Everyone is different. Most importantly listen to your knees (and body in general). As dhk mentions, this is not the kind of pain you want to "ride through". You'll probably find it extremely frustrating to lower the kms or take a rest, but I can tell you from experience that having to stay off my bike for 6 months followed by another 6 months of physiotherapy is even more frustrating.
There are a number of good stretches out there that can help as well. Unfortuneately I can't exactly show them to you hear. Perhaps a trainer or physio at your gym can give you some. Things like your IT band can have a tendance to get very tight as a result. Proper warm up and cool down in general are very important when it comes to injury prevention. Don't neglect them!

As for being determined to stay with the squats, I'd be careful there. Weight training is good, but improper squatting technique can kill knees. I believe I read once that Chris Carmichael doesn't let Lance do squats because of the risk involved. There are safer ways to work the same muscle groups, but that may just be an opinion. (don't want to get into a steel vs alu vs carbon argument here hehe).

Well, that's about exhausted my knowlege in the field, hope it's been helpful!

Cheers,
Phill

okay thanks for all the advice. i only squat once a week, and along with calf raises they are the only leg weights i do, mainly because squats are an all round mass building exercise.

i will cut down to riding once a week, and once set of squats a week, and if the pain continues i will go see my physio to get my form in squats looked at, and get my knee checked out. and if in time they just get better, i will work on perfecting my pedalling technique and just strenghten the tendons.

thanks again

 

[Carrera]

For what it's worth, I'm having the same problem and may be even worse off than you. I'm experiencing a sharp pain in my right knee on squatting downwards or sitting. It came on gradually. There's also a sticky kind of crackling noise I get in the joint - not a good sign.
I've tried doing squats on a smith machine instead which I find may stress the knee less and I've cut my cycling down and added leg-extensions. If I find any exercise causes direct pain, I'll stop and take a layoff.
All I can suggest is never work through pain and warm up carefully.

well i need to do the squats to build up my strength for running, so i will keep doin those, instead the advice is to do less riding?

how much less should i do... and when can i start stepping up the kms?

 

[skydive69]

yes the pain does seem to be around that area, so is it just too much stress on the joint from the squats and improper riding technique. So will the pain stop once my legs adjust to riding, or should i just try to ride in a lower gear?

i got my bike professionally fitted by the guy at my lbs so i don't think thats the problem.

thanks for ur reply

I also had my bike "professionally fitted" however, by slightly raising my seat, my knee pain disappeared (immediately). I also would suggest icing your knees after any ride during which you experience knee pain. I also squat once a week. You might consider 20 rep squats with lower weight, and going no lower on the squat than upper legs parallel to the ground (if not slightly higher). 20 rep squats are probably the most challenging, all around body building exercise that I know of. Complete weight training systems have been built around the exercise such as the famous Perry Radar Squat System.

 

[Carrera]

You're probably referring to the 3 sets of 20 combined with pullovers for weight gain and chest expansion.
The higher rep squats tend to affect the lower back more and even the calves. A guy I knew used to squat up to 40 reps or more with just under 200 pounds. Most people tend to load the bar with huge weights but they only do a paltry 5 reps.

I also had my bike "professionally fitted" however, by slightly raising my seat, my knee pain disappeared (immediately). I also would suggest icing your knees after any ride during which you experience knee pain. I also squat once a week. You might consider 20 rep squats with lower weight, and going no lower on the squat than upper legs parallel to the ground (if not slightly higher). 20 rep squats are probably the most challenging, all around body building exercise that I know of. Complete weight training systems have been built around the exercise such as the famous Perry Radar Squat System.

 

[antoineg]

For what it's worth, I'm having the same problem and may be even worse off than you. I'm experiencing a sharp pain in my right knee on squatting downwards or sitting. It came on gradually. There's also a sticky kind of crackling noise I get in the joint - not a good sign.

Carrera, 1) do you do any plyos or explosive short-duration sprints on the bike?
2) Is the pain above or below the patella, or right on it?
3) Do you do any mobility/flexibility work?

 

[skydive69]

You're probably referring to the 3 sets of 20 combined with pullovers for weight gain and chest expansion.
The higher rep squats tend to affect the lower back more and even the calves. A guy I knew used to squat up to 40 reps or more with just under 200 pounds. Most people tend to load the bar with huge weights but they only do a paltry 5 reps.

Not really. If the correct amount of weight is used, one should be good for one warm up set with lesser weight, and one work set of 20. At about repetition 10, it should seem about impossible to do another 10. One should take numerous breaths between reps as it gets increasingly difficult to finish. It stimulates complete body growth. Pullovers are okay for youngsters who can still greatly effect their rib cage size. Other than that, compound exercises is the way to go concentrating on the large muscle groups.

Progression is also vitally important - adding a slight amount of weight each week - if even a half pound. I have olympic plates as small as a quarter pound for that purpose. If done correctly, most need do 20 rep squats once a week - about that much recovery/growth time is needed. Having said that, people obviously vary in their recovery capabilities.

 

[Carrera]

No I don't sprint at all. Most of the Summer I devoted to climbing and flat distance.
Do you think mobility work is still important if you cycle a lot and throw weight-work in? I do stretch occasionally, although not as much as I should.
The pain I experienced was last week. Prior to that, my knees had been feeling very crackly and unhealthy, especially in the mornings. The term is "crepitus" but it seems to have become more noticeable. Once I experienced actual pain, right inside the knee around the tendon, I realised my knees were trying to tell me something.
As things stand I've stopped cycling, although if I do go out and ride I can do so pain free. The same applies to squatting if I warm up well. Having said that, I'd probably detect some delayed symptoms after exercise.
My plan is to lay off for a few days and see how things go since I really don't want to end up with chronic knee problems. My suspicion is it may be cartilage or tendon related and the area feels a bit sticky. One mistake I've seen many people make is to carry on riding with sore knees and then developing a real injury, so I'm trying to be sensible.
I just bought some glucosamine cream that you rub into the joint and is supposedly absorbed. I don't know whether there's any point taking anti-inflammatories as well since there doesn't seem to be any actual inflammation.
Is this a common problem do you think?

Carrera, 1) do you do any plyos or explosive short-duration sprints on the bike?
2) Is the pain above or below the patella, or right on it?
3) Do you do any mobility/flexibility work?

 

[antoineg]

No I don't sprint at all. Most of the Summer I devoted to climbing and flat distance.
Do you think mobility work is still important if you cycle a lot and throw weight-work in? I do stretch occasionally, although not as much as I should.
The pain I experienced was last week. Prior to that, my knees had been feeling very crackly and unhealthy, especially in the mornings. The term is "crepitus" but it seems to have become more noticeable. Once I experienced actual pain, right inside the knee around the tendon, I realised my knees were trying to tell me something.
As things stand I've stopped cycling, although if I do go out and ride I can do so pain free. The same applies to squatting if I warm up well. Having said that, I'd probably detect some delayed symptoms after exercise.
My plan is to lay off for a few days and see how things go since I really don't want to end up with chronic knee problems. My suspicion is it may be cartilage or tendon related and the area feels a bit sticky. One mistake I've seen many people make is to carry on riding with sore knees and then developing a real injury, so I'm trying to be sensible.
I just bought some glucosamine cream that you rub into the joint and is supposedly absorbed. I don't know whether there's any point taking anti-inflammatories as well since there doesn't seem to be any actual inflammation.
Is this a common problem do you think?

I also have crepitus, and have also had knee pain of the type you describe. The crepitus started well before any knee pain, and has continued past when the knee pain disappeared. My doctor diagnosed mild chondromalacia, which causes the grinding noises, and said my cycling would help that.

I would personally avoid any high-force movements, especially including squatting, perhaps for two to three weeks. In my case, some aggressive plyometric work brought on some knee pain that went away after a few weeks of reduced-force exercise.

I would also work on ensuring that you have some measure of flexibility in the lateral quad and ITB on the affected side, but please make sure you don't mindlessly stretch it -- know what you are doing. Too much of the wrong type of stretching can be as bad as too little. Secondly, I would work on very light weight terminal knee extension exercises -- just the last 30% or so of ROM for that leg, using a 5- or 10-pound ankle weight, and focus on locking out the knee. This helps strengthen the VMO which in my opinion is much less developed by "straight cycling" relative to the strong lateral muscles in the quad. Remember -- heavier is NOT better for this exercise during any period of injury.

The point of the last two ideas is to balance the strength and flexibility of the muscles that pull on the kneecap and which can cause pain and related symptoms (chondromalacia). The idea is to gradually get the kneecap back to tracking properly.

Have you had your feet checked? Flat feet or overpronation can sometimes contribute to knee problems.

When you cycle, do your knees track straight up and down? Have this checked by someone standing in front of you on a trainer.

Again, these are all my opinions only. I'm not a doctor. Take it for what it's worth, and I hope you feel better.

 

[Carrera]

Thanks for the helpful advice. I suspected chrondomalachia as well. The knee just doesn't feel healthy or happy, especially in the morning. I tried the glucosamine rub today and have the tablets as well. I suspect that if I lay off the bike a bit I should be O.K. in time. I did a heck of a lot of climbing over the Summer so it basically comes as no surprise that my knees might need some time out. The secret is not to drive through warning pains and chill out a bit till the injury settles. I read aspirin is useful too so I decided to go on anti-inflammatories - chrondomolachia does involve some inflammation.
With regard to moral I'm still training. I can do other exercises while my knee takes a break rather than sitting around the house.
I'll let you all know how I get on and if the glucosamine rub is of any use.

I also have crepitus, and have also had knee pain of the type you describe. The crepitus started well before any knee pain, and has continued past when the knee pain disappeared. My doctor diagnosed mild chondromalacia, which causes the grinding noises, and said my cycling would help that.

I would personally avoid any high-force movements, especially including squatting, perhaps for two to three weeks. In my case, some aggressive plyometric work brought on some knee pain that went away after a few weeks of reduced-force exercise.

I would also work on ensuring that you have some measure of flexibility in the lateral quad and ITB on the affected side, but please make sure you don't mindlessly stretch it -- know what you are doing. Too much of the wrong type of stretching can be as bad as too little. Secondly, I would work on very light weight terminal knee extension exercises -- just the last 30% or so of ROM for that leg, using a 5- or 10-pound ankle weight, and focus on locking out the knee. This helps strengthen the VMO which in my opinion is much less developed by "straight cycling" relative to the strong lateral muscles in the quad. Remember -- heavier is NOT better for this exercise during any period of injury.

The point of the last two ideas is to balance the strength and flexibility of the muscles that pull on the kneecap and which can cause pain and related symptoms (chondromalacia). The idea is to gradually get the kneecap back to tracking properly.

Have you had your feet checked? Flat feet or overpronation can sometimes contribute to knee problems.

When you cycle, do your knees track straight up and down? Have this checked by someone standing in front of you on a trainer.

Again, these are all my opinions only. I'm not a doctor. Take it for what it's worth, and I hope you feel better.