New track bike chain line advice



R

Robert

Guest
Hi, I've just received a hand built track bike (with adaptations for
road use), and I concerned to find that the chainring is fitted to the
inside of the spider - no shoulders are on this side to support the
ring - (it's a TA Alize track c/set), so it's only supported by the
five bolts! Given that the rear hub is double fixed so can't be
"dished", could it be that the frame is "out"? The bottom bracket is a
Shimano XT- the narrowist apparently, onto a 68mm shell. The drive
crank is only about 6mm from the shell, so there is not much allowance
left to move the crank closer to the frame to correct for fitting the
ring to it's proper position - moving the ring onto the outside
position would be about 10mm. I have contacted the makers and they are
to send me another bike box to post it off, so not much arguement
there! I have never had a "fixed" before, so I am at a loss as to how
they will correct this. Could someone be able to tell me what is the
likely problem with this bike?
 
S

Sheldon Brown

Guest
Robert wrote:

> Hi, I've just received a hand built track bike (with adaptations for
> road use), and I concerned to find that the chainring is fitted to the
> inside of the spider - no shoulders are on this side to support the
> ring - (it's a TA Alize track c/set), so it's only supported by the
> five bolts! Given that the rear hub is double fixed so can't be
> "dished", could it be that the frame is "out"? The bottom bracket is a
> Shimano XT- the narrowist apparently, onto a 68mm shell. The drive
> crank is only about 6mm from the shell, so there is not much allowance
> left to move the crank closer to the frame to correct for fitting the
> ring to it's proper position - moving the ring onto the outside
> position would be about 10mm. I have contacted the makers and they are
> to send me another bike box to post it off, so not much arguement
> there! I have never had a "fixed" before, so I am at a loss as to how
> they will correct this. Could someone be able to tell me what is the
> likely problem with this bike?


Best way to check this is to take a ruler and measure the chainline.

Normal track hubs with the sprockets in the normal orientation will give
a chainline of about 42 mm.

See my Chainline article for details in how to measure/calculate
chainline: http://sheldonbrown.com/chainline

Sheldon "Straight Ahead" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------+
| There is something fascinating about science. |
| One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture |
| out of such a trifling investment of fact. |
| --Mark Twain |
+-------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
J

John Dacey

Guest
On 28 Aug 2004 15:50:25 -0700, [email protected] (Robert) wrote:

>Hi, I've just received a hand built track bike (with adaptations for
>road use), and I concerned to find that the chainring is fitted to the
>inside of the spider - no shoulders are on this side to support the
>ring - (it's a TA Alize track c/set), so it's only supported by the
>five bolts! Given that the rear hub is double fixed so can't be
>"dished", could it be that the frame is "out"? The bottom bracket is a
>Shimano XT- the narrowist apparently, onto a 68mm shell.

<snip>
>Could someone be able to tell me what is the
>likely problem with this bike?


There have been two TA cranks bearing the name "Alize Piste". If you
have the later of the two (show in the picture at
http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/tcr-ta3.JPG), the manufacturer
recommends a bottom bracket with a symmetrical 103 mm spindle with ISO
tapers. Your XT bottom bracket spindle is much longer than that
specification and its taper type may further exacerbate the chainline
problem.


-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
http://www.businesscycles.com
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
-------------------------------
 
R

Robert

Guest
John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 28 Aug 2004 15:50:25 -0700, [email protected] (Robert) wrote:
>
> >Hi, I've just received a hand built track bike (with adaptations for
> >road use), and I concerned to find that the chainring is fitted to the
> >inside of the spider - no shoulders are on this side to support the
> >ring - (it's a TA Alize track c/set), so it's only supported by the
> >five bolts! Given that the rear hub is double fixed so can't be
> >"dished", could it be that the frame is "out"? The bottom bracket is a
> >Shimano XT- the narrowist apparently, onto a 68mm shell.

> <snip>
> >Could someone be able to tell me what is the
> >likely problem with this bike?

>
> There have been two TA cranks bearing the name "Alize Piste". If you
> have the later of the two (show in the picture at
> http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/tcr-ta3.JPG), the manufacturer
> recommends a bottom bracket with a symmetrical 103 mm spindle with ISO
> tapers. Your XT bottom bracket spindle is much longer than that
> specification and its taper type may further exacerbate the chainline
> problem.
>
>
> -------------------------------
> John Dacey
> Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
> http://www.businesscycles.com
> Since 1983
> Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
> -------------------------------


Thank you both for your comments, my c/set is, indeed, the one in the
link. Sheldon, the distance is 42mm from seat tube c - c front
chainring, but, to move the ring to the proper position would make it
about 52mm! John, the crank is very close to the right shell - 4-5mm
away, so I don't know if the spindle is the cause of this - the left
crank has more protuding, 8-9mm. The rear sprocket is 18mm away from
the track end - inside edge - making it OK there. Is there an easy way
to check the frame for mis-allingment? As an aside, have you knowledge
of Suzue "grand velo" track hubs? - I specified dura-ace! Thank you
all, Robert.
 
Z

Zog The Undeniable

Guest
Robert wrote:

> Thank you both for your comments, my c/set is, indeed, the one in the
> link. Sheldon, the distance is 42mm from seat tube c - c front
> chainring, but, to move the ring to the proper position would make it
> about 52mm! John, the crank is very close to the right shell - 4-5mm
> away, so I don't know if the spindle is the cause of this - the left
> crank has more protuding, 8-9mm. The rear sprocket is 18mm away from
> the track end - inside edge - making it OK there. Is there an easy way
> to check the frame for mis-allingment? As an aside, have you knowledge
> of Suzue "grand velo" track hubs? - I specified dura-ace! Thank you
> all, Robert.


Sounds like you need to get the BB replaced with the proper 103mm TA
Axix Light BB (I think there may once have been a 103mm Shimano UN91
when Dura-Ace and XTR used a square taper, but it's not listed now).

FWIW, my Fuji Track also has the chainring mounted on the inside of the
spider, but that's because it uses a Truvativ Touro road chainset. I
don't think they could stretch to a proper track chainset for the 300UKP
that the bike costs.
 
Z

Zog The Undeniable

Guest
John Dacey wrote:

> There have been two TA cranks bearing the name "Alize Piste". If you
> have the later of the two (show in the picture at
> http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/tcr-ta3.JPG), the manufacturer
> recommends a bottom bracket with a symmetrical 103 mm spindle with ISO
> tapers.


Didn't TA change to the Shimano (JIS) taper recently?
 
R

Robert

Guest
Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> John Dacey wrote:
>
> > There have been two TA cranks bearing the name "Alize Piste". If you
> > have the later of the two (show in the picture at
> > http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/tcr-ta3.JPG), the manufacturer
> > recommends a bottom bracket with a symmetrical 103 mm spindle with ISO
> > tapers.

> Didn't TA change to the Shimano (JIS) taper recently?


Thanks everyone for your comments. The chainline can be solved then,
by just fitting the correct b/b? As another point, they have fitted a
TA 9/10 speed ring, which I believe will make the ring 3/16", would
this be another poor choice of component - they have fitted a 1/8"
chain and a 1/8" rear sprocket - does this kind of mis-match lead to
any harm, chain coming off, for example? I'm sorry for all the
questions, but I have never had a fixed geared bike before. Thanks,
Robert.
 
Z

Zog The Undeniable

Guest
Robert wrote:

> As another point, they have fitted a
> TA 9/10 speed ring, which I believe will make the ring 3/16", would
> this be another poor choice of component - they have fitted a 1/8"
> chain and a 1/8" rear sprocket - does this kind of mis-match lead to
> any harm, chain coming off, for example? I'm sorry for all the
> questions, but I have never had a fixed geared bike before.


A 3/32" (not 3/16" - that's bigger than 1/8"!) ring works perfectly well
but won't last as long as a 1/8" ring and may be slightly noisier with
the wide chain.

The only time you may have a problem is if the 3/32" ring has cut-off
teeth to aid shifting. This is something you really don't want on any
fixed or singlespeed bike as it does give the chain somewhere to jump off.

TA make a full range of 1/8" rings to fit the Alize (130mm BCD).
 
R

Robert

Guest
Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Robert wrote:
>
> > As another point, they have fitted a
> > TA 9/10 speed ring, which I believe will make the ring 3/16", would
> > this be another poor choice of component - they have fitted a 1/8"
> > chain and a 1/8" rear sprocket - does this kind of mis-match lead to
> > any harm, chain coming off, for example? I'm sorry for all the
> > questions, but I have never had a fixed geared bike before.

>
> A 3/32" (not 3/16" - that's bigger than 1/8"!) ring works perfectly well
> but won't last as long as a 1/8" ring and may be slightly noisier with
> the wide chain.
>
> The only time you may have a problem is if the 3/32" ring has cut-off
> teeth to aid shifting. This is something you really don't want on any
> fixed or singlespeed bike as it does give the chain somewhere to jump off.
>
> TA make a full range of 1/8" rings to fit the Alize (130mm BCD).


Thanks for your notes everyone,(and correction, Zog)! To refer back to
the first of my points, is there a likelyhood of this ring breaking
off because is has not been fitted properly? The bike is being
returned this week, without much protest from them, I might add! I
seem to be having more problems than I should with this bike - I was
going to DIY it - now I wish I had! Thanks once more, Robert.
 
Z

Zog The Undeniable

Guest
Robert wrote:

> To refer back to
> the first of my points, is there a likelyhood of this ring breaking
> off because is has not been fitted properly?


No. The chainring bolts are taking a circular shearing load and putting
them on the "stepped" side of the spider doesn't transfer any of this to
the spider.
 
J

John Dacey

Guest
"Nemo doctus unquam (multa autem de hoc genere scripta sunt)
mutationem consili inconstantiam dixit esse." - Cicero

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:01:11 +0100, Zog The Undeniable
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Dacey wrote:
>
>> There have been two TA cranks bearing the name "Alize Piste". If you
>> have the later of the two (show in the picture at
>> http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/tcr-ta3.JPG), the manufacturer
>> recommends a bottom bracket with a symmetrical 103 mm spindle with ISO
>> tapers.

>
>Didn't TA change to the Shimano (JIS) taper recently?


Not to my knowledge. TA did change their cups from their annoyingly
proprietary four-pin adjustable cup and three-notch lockring
configuration to a design that allows installation with the Shimano
splined bottom bracket cup tool (TL-UN74S and its various knockoffs).
Perhaps that's the Shimano connection about which you've heard.


-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
http://www.businesscycles.com
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
-------------------------------
 
R

Robert

Guest
John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Nemo doctus unquam (multa autem de hoc genere scripta sunt)
> mutationem consili inconstantiam dixit esse." - Cicero
>
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:01:11 +0100, Zog The Undeniable
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >John Dacey wrote:
> >
> >> There have been two TA cranks bearing the name "Alize Piste". If you
> >> have the later of the two (show in the picture at
> >> http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/tcr-ta3.JPG), the manufacturer
> >> recommends a bottom bracket with a symmetrical 103 mm spindle with ISO
> >> tapers.

> >
> >Didn't TA change to the Shimano (JIS) taper recently?

>
> Not to my knowledge. TA did change their cups from their annoyingly
> proprietary four-pin adjustable cup and three-notch lockring
> configuration to a design that allows installation with the Shimano
> splined bottom bracket cup tool (TL-UN74S and its various knockoffs).
> Perhaps that's the Shimano connection about which you've heard.
>
>
> -------------------------------
> John Dacey
> Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
> http://www.businesscycles.com
> Since 1983
> Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
> -------------------------------


Are you saying that the "shoulders" on the outside are not necessary
for strength and it's OK to use bolts only? I have a feeling that the
makers of my bike used the wrong b/b - "Shimano XT", and compensated
by fitting the ring the "wrong" way to allow them to set the chain
line to the usual 42mm, thank you all for your helpful comments, and
John, would you have any fitting instructions on the TA Alize c/set to
confirm my concerns about the "bolts only" method is OK (on a fixed
gear bike). Thanks, Robert.
 
J

John Dacey

Guest
On 31 Aug 2004 00:30:52 -0700, [email protected] (Robert) wrote:

>John Dacey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:
>> >Didn't TA change to the Shimano (JIS) taper recently?

>>
>> Not to my knowledge. TA did change their cups from their annoyingly
>> proprietary four-pin adjustable cup and three-notch lockring
>> configuration to a design that allows installation with the Shimano
>> splined bottom bracket cup tool (TL-UN74S and its various knockoffs).
>> Perhaps that's the Shimano connection about which you've heard.


>
>Are you saying that the "shoulders" on the outside are not necessary
>for strength and it's OK to use bolts only?


It wasn't me that previously commented about this, but for what it's
worth, I also think that a chainring can usually be adequately
supported just by a good set of chainring bolts.

>I have a feeling that the
>makers of my bike used the wrong b/b - "Shimano XT", and compensated
>by fitting the ring the "wrong" way to allow them to set the chain
>line to the usual 42mm,


That's the way it appears--the various departures from "by the book"
assembly has given a summed error of zero.

>thank you all for your helpful comments, and
>John, would you have any fitting instructions on the TA Alize c/set to
>confirm my concerns about the "bolts only" method is OK (on a fixed
>gear bike). Thanks, Robert.


I think you'll find the literature to be silent on this issue, but you
may want to see the spec sheet for yourself:

http://www.businesscycles.com/graphics/alizepiste.jpg

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Our catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com
 
S

Sheldon Brown

Guest
Robert wrote:

> Are you saying that the "shoulders" on the outside are not necessary
> for strength and it's OK to use bolts only?


Yes.

Sheldon "Terse" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Dennis: "Listen, strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords, |
| is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power |
| derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical |
| aquatic ceremony" |
|King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
| |
|Dennis: "I mean you can't expect to wield supreme executive power |
| just because some watery **** threw a sword at you" |
|King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
|Dennis: "I mean if I went around saying I was an emperor, just because |
| some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away" |
|King Arthur: "Shut Up! Will you Shut Up!" |
|Dennis: Oh, now we see the violence inherent in the syststem. COME |
| SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM. HELP! HELP! I'M BEING |
| REPRESSED" |
|King Arthur: "Bloody Peasant!" |
|Dennis: "Oh what a give away. What a give away huh? Did you see that? |
| You saw 'im repressin' me didn't you ? That's what I'm on about!" |
--Monty Python & the Holy Grail |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:39:44 -0400, Sheldon Brown
<[email protected]> wrote:

[snip merely bicycling-related matter]

>Sheldon "Terse" Brown
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|Dennis: "Listen, strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords, |
>| is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power |
>| derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical |
>| aquatic ceremony" |
>|King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
>| |
>|Dennis: "I mean you can't expect to wield supreme executive power |
>| just because some watery **** threw a sword at you" |
>|King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
>|Dennis: "I mean if I went around saying I was an emperor, just because |
>| some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away" |
>|King Arthur: "Shut Up! Will you Shut Up!" |
>|Dennis: Oh, now we see the violence inherent in the syststem. COME |
>| SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM. HELP! HELP! I'M BEING |
>| REPRESSED" |
>|King Arthur: "Bloody Peasant!" |
>|Dennis: "Oh what a give away. What a give away huh? Did you see that? |
>| You saw 'im repressin' me didn't you ? That's what I'm on about!" |
> --Monty Python & the Holy Grail |
>+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
> http://harriscyclery.com
> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
>http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com


Dear Sheldon,

Dear Lord, I hope no one draws any parallels between watery
matters leading anyone to expect to wield supreme executive
power and--

Never mind.

Carl Fogel
 
T

Ted

Guest
Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

> Robert wrote:
>
> > Are you saying that the "shoulders" on the outside are not necessary
> > for strength and it's OK to use bolts only?

>
> Yes.
>
> Sheldon "Terse" Brown
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Dennis: "Listen, strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords, |
> | is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power |
> | derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical |
> | aquatic ceremony" |
> |King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
> | |
> |Dennis: "I mean you can't expect to wield supreme executive power |
> | just because some watery **** threw a sword at you" |
> |King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
> |Dennis: "I mean if I went around saying I was an emperor, just because |
> | some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away" |
> |King Arthur: "Shut Up! Will you Shut Up!" |
> |Dennis: Oh, now we see the violence inherent in the syststem. COME |
> | SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM. HELP! HELP! I'M BEING |
> | REPRESSED" |
> |King Arthur: "Bloody Peasant!" |
> |Dennis: "Oh what a give away. What a give away huh? Did you see that? |
> | You saw 'im repressin' me didn't you ? That's what I'm on about!" |
> --Monty Python & the Holy Grail |
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+





BWHAHAAHAHBWHAHA - me

HAHHAHAHAHHEEHEEHAHA - my 16 year old son
 
R

Robert

Guest
Ted <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Robert wrote:
> >
> > > Are you saying that the "shoulders" on the outside are not necessary
> > > for strength and it's OK to use bolts only?

> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Sheldon "Terse" Brown
> > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> > |Dennis: "Listen, strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords, |
> > | is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power |
> > | derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical |
> > | aquatic ceremony" |
> > |King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
> > | |
> > |Dennis: "I mean you can't expect to wield supreme executive power |
> > | just because some watery **** threw a sword at you" |
> > |King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
> > |Dennis: "I mean if I went around saying I was an emperor, just because |
> > | some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away" |
> > |King Arthur: "Shut Up! Will you Shut Up!" |
> > |Dennis: Oh, now we see the violence inherent in the syststem. COME |
> > | SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM. HELP! HELP! I'M BEING |
> > | REPRESSED" |
> > |King Arthur: "Bloody Peasant!" |
> > |Dennis: "Oh what a give away. What a give away huh? Did you see that? |
> > | You saw 'im repressin' me didn't you ? That's what I'm on about!" |
> > --Monty Python & the Holy Grail |
> > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

>
>
>
>
> BWHAHAAHAHBWHAHA - me
>
> HAHHAHAHAHHEEHEEHAHA - my 16 year old son


I must thank you all for your helpful comments, perhaps the last post
could let us know what happened there? The "terse" posting had great
footnotes! A last comment from me, (maybe!), about this method of
using the bolts in that way, is that that "the warranty would be
invalid" - a warning to me from the distributors in the UK. Thanks
all, Robert.
 
R

Robert

Guest
Ted <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Robert wrote:
> >
> > > Are you saying that the "shoulders" on the outside are not necessary
> > > for strength and it's OK to use bolts only?

> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Sheldon "Terse" Brown
> > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> > |Dennis: "Listen, strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords, |
> > | is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power |
> > | derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical |
> > | aquatic ceremony" |
> > |King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
> > | |
> > |Dennis: "I mean you can't expect to wield supreme executive power |
> > | just because some watery **** threw a sword at you" |
> > |King Arthur: "Shut Up!" |
> > |Dennis: "I mean if I went around saying I was an emperor, just because |
> > | some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away" |
> > |King Arthur: "Shut Up! Will you Shut Up!" |
> > |Dennis: Oh, now we see the violence inherent in the syststem. COME |
> > | SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM. HELP! HELP! I'M BEING |
> > | REPRESSED" |
> > |King Arthur: "Bloody Peasant!" |
> > |Dennis: "Oh what a give away. What a give away huh? Did you see that? |
> > | You saw 'im repressin' me didn't you ? That's what I'm on about!" |
> > --Monty Python & the Holy Grail |
> > +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

>
>
>
>
> BWHAHAAHAHBWHAHA - me
>
> HAHHAHAHAHHEEHEEHAHA - my 16 year old son


I must thank you all for your helpful comments, perhaps the last post
could let us know what happened there? The "terse" posting had great
footnotes! A last comment from me, (maybe!), about this method of
using the bolts in that way, is that that "the warranty would be
invalid" - a warning to me from the distributors in the UK. Thanks
all, Robert.