new wheelset



alejoint

New Member
Feb 18, 2004
9
0
0
im building a new bike n wanted to change and try the disc brakes aswell as tubular tires .
im not to much concerned about the weight i just care about their strengt and durability so was thinking about getting these one:
-mavic xm 819 disc rims
-hope xc hubs (F,R)
-DT Swiss comp spokes
- DT alloy nipples red
the cost is $490 hand builded at speedgoat + free ground shipping
do you think that i can get something better for that prise??
any review on these components??
dop you know were i can get it cheaper??
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
alejoint said:
im building a new bike n wanted to change and try the disc brakes aswell as tubular tires .
im not to much concerned about the weight i just care about their strengt and durability so was thinking about getting these one:
-mavic xm 819 disc rims
-hope xc hubs (F,R)
-DT Swiss comp spokes
- DT alloy nipples red
the cost is $490 hand builded at speedgoat + free ground shipping
do you think that i can get something better for that prise??
any review on these components??
dop you know were i can get it cheaper??
I would use standard 16 mm long plated brass nipples especially on the XM 819 rims which required a proprietary threaded nipple holder at each nipple/spoke loaction. The threaded nipple holders are extra work to install and Mavic suggests using Loctite on their threads. If you break or strip a nipple, which is about 10 times more likely with alloy nipples, you will have an extra annoying job to replace it. I suggest that alloy nipples, especially in this case, are not worth the Bling - Bling and the 40 grams of weight savings on the pair of wheels.
I would also use Shimano XTR hubs as they are more easily serviced and maintained than Hope.
 

hd reynolds

New Member
Nov 15, 2005
813
0
0
daveornee said:
I would use standard 16 mm long plated brass nipples especially on the XM 819 rims which required a proprietary threaded nipple holder at each nipple/spoke loaction. The threaded nipple holders are extra work to install and Mavic suggests using Loctite on their threads. If you break or strip a nipple, which is about 10 times more likely with alloy nipples, you will have an extra annoying job to replace it. I suggest that alloy nipples, especially in this case, are not worth the Bling - Bling and the 40 grams of weight savings on the pair of wheels.
I would also use Shimano XTR hubs as they are more easily serviced and maintained than Hope.
I disagree with the weight difference being only 40grams. On a 32h wheel it'll proly be about 100grams and that is rotating wheelmass which multiplies as the wheel rotate (imagine using a 1800gram wheel vs a 1700gram).

In another front, altho I agree with not using alloy nips due to the prop threaded nipple holder etc., in a regular wheel/hub setup, alloy nipples are only prone to stripping and breaking during installation. If they don't strip or break during installation, they wont' break or strip at all when the wheel is in-use. Also if properly tensioned I don't think they will unscrew themselves as much as brass ones (that and using loctite is more urban legend that somehow wheelbuilders believe - must be passed on from generation to generation:rolleyes: ).

FWIW, I have almost registered 2000kms on a pair of CXPs built-up with generic (taiwan-made) alloy nipples with DT hubs (32H) and straight gauge stainless spokes. No stripping (even during build-up), no break and no truing needed since I started using them. No loctite either.
 

Retro Grouch

New Member
Dec 29, 2005
584
2
0
79
hd reynolds said:
I disagree with the weight difference being only 40grams. On a 32h wheel it'll proly be about 100grams and that is rotating wheelmass which multiplies as the wheel rotate (imagine using a 1800gram wheel vs a 1700gram).

Quality catalogue lists 32 brass nipples at 30 grams and 32 alloy nipples at 10 grams.
 

hd reynolds

New Member
Nov 15, 2005
813
0
0

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
hd reynolds said:
OK, I looked at the Weight Weenie site.
It says that 64 each 12 mm brass nipples weigh 66 g & 64 each 12 mm aluminum weigh 19 g. The difference of those specified is 47 grams.
I just weighed the nipples I stock:
64 each Sapim Polyax 12 mm plated brass 52 g
64 each Sapim Polyax 12 mm black aluminum 16 g
The difference is 36 grams.
Please explain where the 100 grams difference comes from.
I have ridden ~400,000 kms mostly with brass nipples.
In the less than 10,000 kms I have ridden with aluminum alloy nipples I have had 6 of them break.
I don't think that the environment presented to nipples in the XM819 rim is going to be easy on nipples. I built with these rims and dealing with 16 mm long nipples and the threaded nipple holders makes me want to make sure that I don't invite even a small fraction of a percent more chance of trouble. When you have a chance to take a close look at the rims when built into wheels I think you will see what I am talking about.
Rotating mass is a whole different topic that I don't care to discuss.
 

alejoint

New Member
Feb 18, 2004
9
0
0
thanks for the comments .
ok first :i think you are right about the simplicity of having a shimano hub cause i live in Costa Rica and i dont think it would be easy to find hope parts here and is to expensive to send the hubs to the states for service.
i can't afford an xtr hub , but i can go with the xt m765 hubs and i think i am gonna go with regular brass nipples , but i have one more question
here you see allot of mavic wheelsets (crossmax , crosstrail , crossland) and all of my partners are telling me that it would be better if i go with the crossland instead of building a new set .
the crossland is cheaper (-$120) and is about 120grams lighter , but it doesnt seem to be stronger than the 819's (with the DT Swiss competition spokes). wichone would you recomend?
and if somebody has used the new crosstrail disc i would apreciate some info on them aswell
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
alejoint said:
thanks for the comments .
ok first :i think you are right about the simplicity of having a shimano hub cause i live in Costa Rica and i dont think it would be easy to find hope parts here and is to expensive to send the hubs to the states for service.
i can't afford an xtr hub , but i can go with the xt m765 hubs and i think i am gonna go with regular brass nipples , but i have one more question
here you see allot of mavic wheelsets (crossmax , crosstrail , crossland) and all of my partners are telling me that it would be better if i go with the crossland instead of building a new set .
the crossland is cheaper (-$120) and is about 120grams lighter , but it doesnt seem to be stronger than the 819's (with the DT Swiss competition spokes). wichone would you recomend?
and if somebody has used the new crosstrail disc i would apreciate some info on them aswell
Crossland is lighter and cheaper, but weaker/less durable/less serviceable.
The quality of the components and quality of the build will make the difference in the long run.
 

danielhaden

New Member
Jan 17, 2006
85
0
0
DT's alloy nipples are far stronger than their brass nipples. Anyone who's built a wheel would no longer be recommending weaker brass.

Alloy nipples are extra labor to install because they do require thread compound or locktite on the spoke threads.
However, their superior strength and superior hill climbing speeds are well worth the bother.

The red coloring that is under consideration is a coating that also adds to the strength. DT nipples are strongest if you build or request that the spokes are long enough to come all the way to the end (flush with the end) of the spoke nipple.
 

alienator

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2004
12,596
310
0
danielhaden said:
Alloy nipples are extra labor to install because they do require thread compound or locktite on the spoke threads.
However, their superior strength and superior hill climbing speeds are well worth the bother.

Superior hill climbing speeds? What? If less than 50g of weight difference makes a measureable difference in speed when going uphill.....well....I think you better back that claim up with a little math. I'm willing to bet that such a weight differences effect on speed would be less than the resolution of any cyclocomputers speed measurement....
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
danielhaden said:
DT's alloy nipples are far stronger than their brass nipples. Anyone who's built a wheel would no longer be recommending weaker brass.

Alloy nipples are extra labor to install because they do require thread compound or locktite on the spoke threads.
However, their superior strength and superior hill climbing speeds are well worth the bother.

The red coloring that is under consideration is a coating that also adds to the strength. DT nipples are strongest if you build or request that the spokes are long enough to come all the way to the end (flush with the end) of the spoke nipple.
I build wheels and suggest that your premise is not correct. Brass nipples are stronger than Aluminum alloy nipples. Where are you getting your information?
Nipples do not require thread compound or loctite on the spoke threads. It is a good practice to use a lubricant such as oil or grease on the threads and nipple seats. Where did you get this information?
Alloy nipples are lighter yes.
I have never hear about the red color coating adding strength. Where did you get that information?
Correct spoke length is important and will help with the durability and strength of the build. In this particular build it will be a matter of trusing the wheel builder as the ends of the nipples are not open for inspection. Tubeless Mavic rims have no opening at that side of the rim.
 

danielhaden

New Member
Jan 17, 2006
85
0
0
Information source? A Pedros green spoke wrench with a curious affinity for breaking brass, but never aluminum.

Of course, I wasn't comparing ordinary aluminum to brass; however, heat treated aluminum alloy is certainly stronger than brass.

Threadlocker is recommended for alloy spoke nipples--check the manual. They will unscrew themselves otherwise. No lubricant is desired or required for slippery heat treated aluminum alloy spoke nipples.

Anodized coatings add strength to aluminum--sure, not much, but some.

Since you build wheels, please tell me that you don't built low spoke count wheels on brass spoke nipples.
If so, it might be worth a refresher course on new technology, also because . . .

It seems the the quality of the current brass spoke nipples is quite a bit lower than yesteryear's versions.
I'm at a loss to explain that problem.

daveornee said:
I build wheels and suggest that your premise is not correct. Brass nipples are stronger than Aluminum alloy nipples. Where are you getting your information?
Nipples do not require thread compound or loctite on the spoke threads. It is a good practice to use a lubricant such as oil or grease on the threads and nipple seats. Where did you get this information?
Alloy nipples are lighter yes.
I have never hear about the red color coating adding strength. Where did you get that information?
Correct spoke length is important and will help with the durability and strength of the build. In this particular build it will be a matter of trusing the wheel builder as the ends of the nipples are not open for inspection. Tubeless Mavic rims have no opening at that side of the rim.
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
danielhaden said:
Information source? A Pedros green spoke wrench with a curious affinity for breaking brass, but never aluminum.

Of course, I wasn't comparing ordinary aluminum to brass; however, heat treated aluminum alloy is certainly stronger than brass.

Threadlocker is recommended for alloy spoke nipples--check the manual. They will unscrew themselves otherwise. No lubricant is desired or required for slippery heat treated aluminum alloy spoke nipples.

Anodized coatings add strength to aluminum--sure, not much, but some.

Since you build wheels, please tell me that you don't built low spoke count wheels on brass spoke nipples.
If so, it might be worth a refresher course on new technology, also because . . .

It seems the the quality of the current brass spoke nipples is quite a bit lower than yesteryear's versions.
I'm at a loss to explain that problem.
I don't have a Pedros green spoke wrench. Please read me what it says that indicates that brass nipples are weaker than even the strongest aluminum alloy nipples.
I have never broken either type nipple with a spoke wrench.
I see nipples break when a branch, twig, stick, or other road/trail hazard is wedged between spokes and the fork/seatstay/chainstay. The ones I have observed broken in those situations have all been aluminum alloy nipples. I know that some of them were DT alloy.
Please tell me what manual states that threadlocker is recommended.
I have built a few wheels with aluminum alloy nipples and never used any threadlocker (some lube though) and never had them unwind. Unwinding is caused by a poorly built wheel and/or one that isn't up to the task due choices of components used.
You make substantial claims of knowledge. What are your sources of all this knowledge?
The current brass nipples I mostly use are Sapim Polyax brass. They are high quality and I would not agree that they are diminished in quality from "yesterday's" brass nipples that I used from DT, Wheelsmith, or Sapim.
 

danielhaden

New Member
Jan 17, 2006
85
0
0
Sapim's brass is just fine for strength. It is a high quality brass alloy material and not the weak brass that DT uses. Good choice on Sapim!

daveornee said:
I don't have a Pedros green spoke wrench. Please read me what it says that indicates that brass nipples are weaker than even the strongest aluminum alloy nipples.
I have never broken either type nipple with a spoke wrench.
I see nipples break when a branch, twig, stick, or other road/trail hazard is wedged between spokes and the fork/seatstay/chainstay. The ones I have observed broken in those situations have all been aluminum alloy nipples. I know that some of them were DT alloy.
Please tell me what manual states that threadlocker is recommended.
I have built a few wheels with aluminum alloy nipples and never used any threadlocker (some lube though) and never had them unwind. Unwinding is caused by a poorly built wheel and/or one that isn't up to the task due choices of components used.
You make substantial claims of knowledge. What are your sources of all this knowledge?
The current brass nipples I mostly use are Sapim Polyax brass. They are high quality and I would not agree that they are diminished in quality from "yesterday's" brass nipples that I used from DT, Wheelsmith, or Sapim.
 

danielhaden

New Member
Jan 17, 2006
85
0
0
Thread locker
http://www.wheelsmith.com/index_files/wstools.htm

Nowhere is threadlocker mentioned at DT's web site, but I had assumed that this requirement of alloy spoke nipples was common knowledge.

It is very useful because the aluminum has less traction than rough brass. Colored aluminum nipples are sometimes less slippery because of their coatings.
Aluminum spoke nipples can break from uneven spoke tension caused by their own slight unscrewing from a wheel improperly built without the use of threadlocker.

Also, there's a slight difference in the threads of some spoke nipples. For instance DT12 aluminum requires a slightly longer spoke to have the same grip as WS14 aluminum. This is why I mentioned to be sure the spoke goes "all the way to the end" with DT spoke nipples.

DT brass spoke nipples typically break at the point between the wrench flats and the round section. This does not usually release the spoke immediately but as a very sudden surprise later if the slight (very tiny!) crack in the brass spoke nipple isn't spotted in time.

Sapim's brass alloy does not break.

DT's aluminum spoke nipple does not break. . .when:
1). the wheel is even tensioned,
2). the spokes are "all the way" to the ends of the nipples, and
3). proper spoke compound is used.
Ordinary Permatex Blue works and so does any spoke prep that initally lubricates and then sets up to prevent aluminum nipples from loosening.

Wheelsmith aluminum spoke nipples do not require the extra length (not threaded to the end); however, spoke prep (threadlocker) is vital to ensure even tension and avoid breakage. Also, sometimes those guys forget to put their spoke nipples in the oven and then they do break. Wheelsmith makes no aluminum spoke nipples. Those are bulk and re-branded. When they're an ugly gray, big, sharp, and chunky looking, they don't break. Otherwise, treat with caution.

My preferences are DT aluminum and Sapim for spoke nipples and for rear wheel spokes. However, Wheelsmith's annealed (springy) spokes seem quite a bit faster in front wheels (because they're "cushy").
Any attempt to remove the cushy effect from a Wheelsmith spoke will be beyond the capacity of any spoke nipple currently on the market, so I do not put springy Wheelsmith into drive sides.

Fortunately, similar appearances are available, lovely in combination with the rock hard spokes on the back (for power), and cushy on the front (speed like a glassy smooth road).

That must be one of those very weird cases where in real life (and not rocket science), 2 identical wheels are tested by speedometer, stiff rear wheel on Sapim or DT was found faster than a Wheelsmith rear wheel; however, the Wheelsmith front wheel on the same hub and rim was blazing faster than the DT or Sapim.

Results were a very large percentage.
The speedometer was replaced and the test was repeated many times.
Hard on the back and cushy on the front resulted in impressivly larger numbers on the speedometer.

No other cause was found than the spokes.
That does defy logic a bit.

I would like an explanation to explain the real-life scenerio. However, it does work, and it is repeatable.

Can you explain it?
 

artemidorus

New Member
Mar 10, 2004
2,307
0
36
danielhaden said:
That must be one of those very weird cases where in real life (and not rocket science), 2 identical wheels are tested by speedometer, stiff rear wheel on Sapim or DT was found faster than a Wheelsmith rear wheel; however, the Wheelsmith front wheel on the same hub and rim was blazing faster than the DT or Sapim.

Results were a very large percentage.
The speedometer was replaced and the test was repeated many times.
Hard on the back and cushy on the front resulted in impressivly larger numbers on the speedometer.

No other cause was found than the spokes.
That does defy logic a bit.

I would like an explanation to explain the real-life scenerio. However, it does work, and it is repeatable.

Can you explain it?
Please provide the methodology and the results, or a link to them.
 

alienator

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2004
12,596
310
0
danielhaden said:
Thread locker
http://www.wheelsmith.com/index_files/wstools.htm

Nowhere is threadlocker mentioned at DT's web site, but I had assumed that this requirement of alloy spoke nipples was common knowledge.

It's not common knowledge because it isn't necessary. I'm staring at a set of wheels with aluminum nipples that have over 5000 miles without needing truing. Lo and behold, the wheelbuilder--one of the most sought after wheelbuilders in the US and Europe--only added a drop or two of oil on the nipples before he assembled. I'm guessing that the 1000's of wheels that he's built has given him the experience to understand how wheels are built. And before you say it, he builds wheels on the cutting edge, too.

danielhaden said:
It is very useful because the aluminum has less traction than rough brass. Colored aluminum nipples are sometimes less slippery because of their coatings.
Aluminum spoke nipples can break from uneven spoke tension caused by their own slight unscrewing from a wheel improperly built without the use of threadlocker.

You're showing what you do not know....which is appearing to be a lot.

danielhaden said:
Sapim's brass alloy does not break.

There's this old saying.....S=k*Ln(omega). Most people know it by its name, the Second Law of Thermodynamics. What it says is that nothing lasts forever. In other words, everything breaks.

danielhaden said:
Wheelsmith aluminum spoke nipples do not require the extra length (not threaded to the end); however, spoke prep (threadlocker) is vital to ensure even tension and avoid breakage. Also, sometimes those guys forget to put their spoke nipples in the oven and then they do break. Wheelsmith makes no aluminum spoke nipples. Those are bulk and re-branded. When they're an ugly gray, big, sharp, and chunky looking, they don't break. Otherwise, treat with caution.

I hope you understand that "spoke prep" is not the same as "thread locker." The most common "spoke prep" is linseed oil or something of that nature.

danielhaden said:
My preferences are DT aluminum and Sapim for spoke nipples and for rear wheel spokes. However, Wheelsmith's annealed (springy) spokes seem quite a bit faster in front wheels (because they're "cushy").
Any attempt to remove the cushy effect from a Wheelsmith spoke will be beyond the capacity of any spoke nipple currently on the market, so I do not put springy Wheelsmith into drive sides.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. "Springiness" is a function of a material's Youngs Modulus. Annealing can change strength and hardness, but doesn't necessarily change Young's Modulus. Even if it did, the differences in moduli across any aluminum alloys and treatments is very, very small.

To remove the "springiness" from a spoke only requires increasing tension such that the spoke moves into the plastic part of its stress/strain curve. Here's a little hint: the limit on spoke tensions is set, first of all, by the rim. Second, you might like to explain, then, the issues a fair number of builders have had with Wheelsmith spokes. There is no spoke that can't be tensioned to the proper tension in a wheel. If someone is tensioning spokes until they break, then that someone needs to step away from the truing stand.

danielhaden said:
Fortunately, similar appearances are available, lovely in combination with the rock hard spokes on the back (for power), and cushy on the front (speed like a glassy smooth road).

No point in addressing this since this statement is patently stupid on its face. Again, that whole science, engineering, and math thing is gettin' in your way.

danielhaden said:
That must be one of those very weird cases where in real life (and not rocket science), 2 identical wheels are tested by speedometer, stiff rear wheel on Sapim or DT was found faster than a Wheelsmith rear wheel; however, the Wheelsmith front wheel on the same hub and rim was blazing faster than the DT or Sapim.

This has all the hallmarks of a bad test. First of all, no credible person would test the "speed" of a wheel. You would test the wheel for aero drag. You would test the wheel for bearing and seal drag. You would test the wheel for lateral stiffness. And you would test the wheel for mass moment of inertia. Once you have all that, you don't need to test for anything else.


danielhaden said:
Results were a very large percentage.
The speedometer was replaced and the test was repeated many times.
Hard on the back and cushy on the front resulted in impressivly larger numbers on the speedometer. [/quote}

And where are the results of this study at? Numbers, please. You also need to describe, in detail, the experimental setup and procedure. Experimental error is often the cause for premature rejoicing and celebrating. Google "Pons and Fleischman."

danielhaden said:
No other cause was found than the spokes.
That does defy logic a bit.

Again, exact details are needed. You've left out way too many details: was the test done on a bench or was it done on the road with a rider; what spokes were used and what were the dimensional differences in the spokes; if the test was done outside, what was done to account for meteorological changes; what was the accuracy and precision of the measuring devices; what tires were used and what were the inflation pressures; what assumptions were made in the experiment; what was the calculated or assumed error in the test results? You see, there' s more to doing an "experiment" than just saying, "This one is better."

danielhaden said:
I would like an explanation to explain the real-life scenerio. However, it does work, and it is repeatable.

Can you explain it?

How can anyone explain it? You've given no significant details about this "test." For others to analyze the results, they need to be able to replicate the experiment accurately, both for to insure that data is collected the same and to possibly identify errors in the orginal "experiment."

If it helps, you might want to google "Scientific Method." It is the method by which all scientists and engineers do experiments and collect data.
 

alienator

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2004
12,596
310
0
artemidorus said:
daveornee, I love the restraint of your responses...

Yes, he has more restraint than I. I'm still trying to figure out what marketing spiel I'm regurgitating, 'cuz the only sources I've used have been all the professors I've had and all the textbooks sitting on my shelves. I didn't know that those professors and books were just trying to sell me DT and Sapim products! :rolleyes: