New Year pedolutionists



Peter Signorini wrote:
> "Michael Warner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On 6 Jan 2006 02:12:02 GMT, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> >
> >> percentage wise, they are negligibly wider than roadbikes as far as
> >> your average car is concerned.
> >
> > What is the relevance of the width of a car? The point is that I have
> > to give them a significantly wider berth than road bikes.
>
> My off-road MTB has bars that are 64 cms wide, as opposed to the average
> road bar at around 40 cms (they should be abbout the width of your
> shoulders) so there's 24 cms difference. But wait, it's only the right side
> of the bar that matters when passing, so it's 12 cms wider that you are
> forced to ride.
>
> So because of a 12 cm passing difficulty you're proposing to relegate all
> MTB riders to a lesser road system.?

There is actually a significant difference between passing room
requirements, as road bars are far less likely to clash and tangle than
MTB bars - MTB bars usually stick out beyond a rider's elbows, and
roady bars (typical wide 42 cm center to center, so effectively 46cm or
so) are usually narrower than rider elbows. Elbows are ok to bump,
bars not so.

That's not really relevant to a "right to the road" debate, no matter
what side you take, and riding that close to an unprepared rider is not
wise anyway - be they on a roady or a flat bar bike. The main reason
why you can ride closer to road bikes is that many road bike riders are
used to riding in close proximity to other bikes and are less likely to
be spooked by the experience. MTB riders don't tend to ride in densely
packed bunches as much as roadies. 'course, it's not a good idea to
assume that because a rider is on a roady, that they won't be spooked
and swerve etc, but it's a safer* bet than if they're on a MTB or
hybrid.

* I'm not advocating gambling. Unless I have a very good idea that a
rider I'm passing is competant, I give everyone a wide berth.
 
Michael Warner wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 22:27:53 +1100, David Trudgett wrote:
>
> > As a toe strap wearer, I can certainly confirm what you say. It seems
> > to be a myth made up by people in love with expensive "clipless"
> > systems (you know, the ones with the clips) that toe straps are
> > useless unless they are tight. They are not useless, and I wouldn't do
> > serious riding without them. Just for starters, without them, feet
> > have a habit of flying off the pedals at the most inopportune times --
> > even an unexpected bump in the road could do it (and has). With
> > just-tight-enough straps, my feet have never come off the pedals
> > unless I wanted them to, yet I can get my feet off the pedals almost
> > as easily as if the straps were not there. Furthermore, it is
> > eminently possible to pull up on straps that are not quite tight, thus
> > gaining a good portion of the efficiency of clips.
>
> Serious strap systems include specially shaped shoe soles and pedals
> that can't slip apart horizontally, don't they? Do you use something like
> that, or just a standard flat pedal with street shoes? I'd be surprised
> if the latter could be set up to slip apart easily (without the need to
> loosen the strap) yet stay in securely, even when you're pulling up on
> the pedal.

Myth. Except when sprinting, you don't pull up. Or if you do, you're
wasting energy.
Toe loops & cleats work to keep your foot on the pedal at high cadences
and improve the efficiency of your pedaling by allowing you to push and
scrape over the top and at the bottom of your pedal stroke.

see :

http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/colson-bicyc-austjuly_aug2002.pdf
 
On 6 Jan 2006 05:46:09 -0800, Bleve wrote:

> Myth. Except when sprinting, you don't pull up. Or if you do, you're
> wasting energy.

True, although I've read that you should pull up enough to counteract
the dead weight of each non-pedalling leg. I have no idea how you
could learn to do this without the help of pressure sensors in your
pedals, though :)

I expect he does reach down and loosen the strap, in fact.



--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw
 
Peter Signorini said:
My off-road MTB has bars that are 64 cms wide, as opposed to the average
Click to expand...

Mine are 67cm.. nyer nyer! ;-)

I have a dream! Where little mtbs will be able to join hands with little road bikes and ride together as sisters and brothers..

hippy
 
Michael Warner said:
On 6 Jan 2006 05:46:09 -0800, Bleve wrote:
> Myth. Except when sprinting, you don't pull up. Or if you do, you're
> wasting energy.[/color]

True, although I've read that you should pull up enough to counteract
the dead weight of each non-pedalling leg. I have no idea how you
could learn to do this without the help of pressure sensors in your
pedals, though :)

I expect he does reach down and loosen the strap, in fact.
Click to expand...

There's an article about "unweighting" the non-pedaling foot floating around somewhere. You don't pull up as such (I think it was proved to be a waste of energy anyway) rather you lift enough to reduce the load on the pedaling foot. You're not pulling on the pedal you are just lifting your non-pedaling foot.

I've seen power graphs of the pedal stroke so I guess there is equipment to measure it. Don't know if a standard power meter can do it though. They seem to measure Left/Right power split.. hmm..

hippy
 
In aus.bicycle on Sat, 7 Jan 2006 04:25:15 +1100
hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> There's an article about "unweighting" the non-pedaling foot floating
> around somewhere. You don't pull up as such (I think it was proved to
> be a waste of energy anyway) rather you lift enough to reduce the load
> on the pedaling foot. You're not pulling on the pedal you are just
> lifting your non-pedaling foot.

Which would mean that you don't need your straps tight.

I found that snug straps over street shoes - usually some form of
running shoe with tread - worked nicely for commuting.

I could spin and handle bumps, and get into and out of them easily.
Didn't have to spend a lot of money on fancy gear and have special
shoes.

I think the last time I looked in a bike shop they didn't have such
things, and it was one of the reasons I didn't buy a bike to replace
the grotty old MTB. I didn't want the hassle of clipless.

Zebee
 
hippy wrote:
> aeek Wrote:
> > Ceiling racks! Perfect for that empty space above the bed.
>
> But they obscure the mirrors!

You can use them as trapeze
 
"Zebee Johnstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In aus.bicycle on Sat, 7 Jan 2006 04:25:15 +1100
> hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> There's an article about "unweighting" the non-pedaling foot floating
>> around somewhere. You don't pull up as such (I think it was proved to
>> be a waste of energy anyway) rather you lift enough to reduce the load
>> on the pedaling foot. You're not pulling on the pedal you are just
>> lifting your non-pedaling foot.
>
> Which would mean that you don't need your straps tight.
>
> I found that snug straps over street shoes - usually some form of
> running shoe with tread - worked nicely for commuting.
>
> I could spin and handle bumps, and get into and out of them easily.
> Didn't have to spend a lot of money on fancy gear and have special
> shoes.
>
> I think the last time I looked in a bike shop they didn't have such
> things, and it was one of the reasons I didn't buy a bike to replace
> the grotty old MTB. I didn't want the hassle of clipless.
>
> Zebee

You could always swap the old pedals over onto the new bike.
 
"Random Data" wrote in message ...
>
> XC whippets get the ***** when you do that as well, but I think I might
> try singlespeeding at the crits tomorrow.
>
Oh no! There might be a big SS turnout, we had 3 on Wednesday night.

Parbs
 
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 21:00:20 +0000, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> I think the last time I looked in a bike shop they didn't have such
> things, and it was one of the reasons I didn't buy a bike to replace the
> grotty old MTB. I didn't want the hassle of clipless.

That's odd. I know a bike shop that's been open for about 2 months that
already has a box full of the bloody things. It's in the workshop, because
toe straps are great for holding things in place while you manipulate
other bits.

If you're after some, contact me via email
--
Dave Hughes | [email protected]
"SCSI is *not* magic. There are fundamental technical reasons why it is
necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then."
- Daniel M. Drucker
 
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Sat, 7 Jan 2006 04:25:15 +1100
> hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > There's an article about "unweighting" the non-pedaling foot floating
> > around somewhere. You don't pull up as such (I think it was proved to
> > be a waste of energy anyway) rather you lift enough to reduce the load
> > on the pedaling foot. You're not pulling on the pedal you are just
> > lifting your non-pedaling foot.
>
> Which would mean that you don't need your straps tight.
>
> I found that snug straps over street shoes - usually some form of
> running shoe with tread - worked nicely for commuting.
>
> I could spin and handle bumps, and get into and out of them easily.
> Didn't have to spend a lot of money on fancy gear and have special
> shoes.
>
> I think the last time I looked in a bike shop they didn't have such
> things, and it was one of the reasons I didn't buy a bike to replace
> the grotty old MTB. I didn't want the hassle of clipless.

We sell toestraps and pedals with them. There's always luddites around
... some ride guzzis ... :)
 
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 22:58:17 +1100, Random Data <[email protected]> wrote:


>Also because you're a faster cyclist than the MTBers, and there's probably
>the fact you remember overtaking an MTB on dirt. The right bike certainly
>makes a difference to speed, but the rider is still providing the power -

nah, downhill, power from gravity. By the time (not long) I decided this was too fast
I was only game to stop further acceleration. Figured slowing down would cause a crash.

>Brad McGee on a Kmart special would beat me on anything without 125cc of
>assistance.

On steel so cheap that his leg power could tear it apart?
You might win, but who'd want to see that? Oh, yeah, "Dumbest Videos".

Andre
 
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 13:23:16 +1100, Aeek wrote:

> nah, downhill, power from gravity. By the time (not long) I decided this
> was too fast I was only game to stop further acceleration. Figured slowing
> down would cause a crash.

Yeah, but your idea of "too fast" could well be higher than theirs, even
allowing for a bike that's probably better suited to the conditions. I
took my brother, who hasn't ridden for about 5 years, for a ride - he had
my 5" duallie, I had a rigid SS and I was faster both up and down hills.


--
Dave Hughes | [email protected]
"SCSI is *not* magic. There are fundamental technical reasons why it is
necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then."
- Daniel M. Drucker
 
aeek wrote:
> Euan Wrote:
>
>>Michael Warner <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:04:52 GMT, daveL wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm not entirely sure what this comment is getting at though.
>>>
>>>Ok, I'll spell it out - the problem is that MTBs are slow and wide,
>>>and trying to pass them safely is often a bit of a worry in busy
>>
>>traffic.
>>
>>Then exercise some god-dammed common courtesy and wait. You have no
>>right to go faster than the person in front of you.
>>
>
>
> Um, from how I read Michael he is waiting - not like the clowns who
> blow past my ear at red lights.
> Showing courtesy is one thing, being happy about it can be another.
>
>

Usually someone riding those funny little bikes with the really low
seats ... what are they? (Those *young people* and their crazy bikes.)

jimmay
 
Bleve wrote:
> daveL wrote:
>
>>Hey,
>>
>>I've been lurking here for a little while now but this is my first post,
>>so hi all.
>>
>
> [chomp]
>
>
>
>>So what exactly is wrong about me commuting on my MTB? I really enjoy my
>>daily rides and would hate to think that the people passing me (nearly
>>every one :) had a problem.
>
>
> Absolutely nothing. Keep on riding :)
>
And, hey, if the aim is to keep fit, rolling resistance is your friend.
Knobblies are great!

jimmay
 
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:17:20 +1100
> Peter Signorini <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Zebee Johnstone" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If you want to get people into cycling, saying "you have to buy all
>>>this specialist **** or you'll get sworn at and called a fool" is
>>>probably not the way to do it.
>>
>>I think Lotte was having a go at him more for his truly dorky riding
>>clothes, and self-endangering riding behaviour.
>
>
> Dorky clothes is just shorthand for "not one of us".
>
> After all, the lycra loonies are dorkish, it's just that it isn't done
> to say so *here* because it marks as "one of us". Everyone else
> thinks they look like adults playing dressups. I mean pretending to
> be part of a pro team, really! All the stickers and team names and
> silly paintjobs and fancy gadgets - trust me, dorky is what the people
> who see are thinking.
>

Yes, it looks like those middle-aged guys with convertibles who wear
driving gloves ... fine for racing, but an optional extra for
commuting/getting fit.

> The riding behaviour was the point of the thread I thought. To say
> "here are these people who need help to keep riding". Saying "you
> have to reach my standards before I will treat you decently" is not
> going to help is it!
>
>
>
>>Yep, you don't have to wear 'wannnabe road racer' clothes nor carbon road
>>shoes. But get some shoes that help your pedalling action, especially if
>>you're going to be riding any lengthy distance.
>>
>
>
> But it isn't required. It's just nice to have if you are going to be
> all serious.
>
> It isn't a sign of someone who needs to be insulted and ignored and
> told he's a fool.
>
> Tell people "you have to have this and that fancy **** to ride" and
> will they ride? There's a limit...



>
>
>
>>>Clipless pedals aren't needed to ride a pushbike. Hell, tying your
>>>feet to the bike isn't needed.
>>
>>Not needed, but if you ride a lot, for longish distances, climb hills or
>>ride a MTB on forest tracks, they do make your riding an awful lot better.
>>Your choice, ignore those with experience if you like.
>>
>
>
> You miss the point. Sure - nice to have if you are doing heaps of
> fancy riding.
>
> But not required. Not needed to ride a pushbike. To say they are,
> and therefore anyone who doesn't have them is to be disdained...
> that's silly.
>
> And self-defeating if you want to encourage more people.
>
> Me, I don't care if someone is riding a clapped out postie bike or a
> 50cc scooter wearing shorts and thongs. Yeah, I'll mention to them
> that the bike changes gear better if you wear closed shoes and that
> jeans mean your kneecaps don't get filthy and you might not get as
> much gravel rash if you come off, but as I want them on a motorcycle
> instead of a car I'm not going to abuse them.
>
> Indeed it seems to me they are people who need an experienced rider to
> make friends with them and give them tips about inexpensive and easy
> ways to have more fun. Who doesn't start from "look you lower life
> form, learn How We Do It or sell the thing"
>
>
> Zebee
 
David Trudgett wrote:
> "Resound" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>"Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>DaveB wrote:
>>>
>>>>LotteBum wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>wear a jersey as well), doing up his toe straps (who the f*ck uses them
>>>>>these days!?!)
>>>>
>>>>Hmmm, well I use them on the commuter and the SS. On the commuter
>>>>because I don't trust my ability to unclip quick enough in CBD traffic,
>>>>ad on the SS because I want to ride to the shops in whatever I'm wearing.
>>>>
>>>>DaveB
>>>
>>>If your toe straps are loose enough that they're quicker to get out of
>>>than clipless pedals, they might as well not be there ;)
>>>
>>>Tam
>>
>>I've only recently gone clipless and I had straps that I could get
>>in and out of quikly and easily. They were still snug enough that I
>>could haul up on them and if I tried riding something with flat
>>pedals my feet skidded all over the place. They were definitely
>>doing something for me.
>
>
> Maybe Tam is a clip system troll... ;-)
>
> As a toe strap wearer, I can certainly confirm what you say. It seems
> to be a myth made up by people in love with expensive "clipless"
> systems (you know, the ones with the clips) that toe straps are
> useless unless they are tight. They are not useless, and I wouldn't do
> serious riding without them. Just for starters, without them, feet
> have a habit of flying off the pedals at the most inopportune times --
> even an unexpected bump in the road could do it (and has). With
> just-tight-enough straps, my feet have never come off the pedals
> unless I wanted them to, yet I can get my feet off the pedals almost
> as easily as if the straps were not there. Furthermore, it is
> eminently possible to pull up on straps that are not quite tight, thus
> gaining a good portion of the efficiency of clips.
>
> It should also be obvious that *tight* toe straps are *dangerous*
> unless, perhaps, you are riding a fixed wheel on a velodrome (in which
> case, these days, you'd almost certainly be using clips instead of
> straps so you don't embarrass yourself by falling over while loosening
> straps... ;-) ).
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
>
I sometimes ride with just one if I think the situation may require me
to stop suddenly.

jimmay
 
"David Trudgett" wrote:

> As a toe strap wearer, I can certainly confirm what you say. It seems
> to be a myth made up by people in love with expensive "clipless"
> systems (you know, the ones with the clips) that toe straps are
> useless unless they are tight.

Ah, the toe clips vs SPDs thread! Just about as infamous as a helmets
thread, or MSR vs Trangias on aus.bushwalking.

> They are not useless, and I wouldn't do
> serious riding without them.

I'm not about to suggest they are useless at all. If you like them stick
with them - whatever floats your boat. But personally I've found the
clipless pedals (mine are Times) to be faaantastic. Have used them for over
12 years now, so I think that counts as some experience. Several friends of
mine, who've argued for years that toe clips were the best thing out, have
suddenly become SPD advocates, about a month after trying SPDs. They have
not gone back to the toe clip.

> Just for starters, without them, feet
> have a habit of flying off the pedals at the most inopportune times --
> even an unexpected bump in the road could do it (and has).

This is a foot-location system. But SPDs, and toe-clips are 'sposed to do
much more than this

> With just-tight-enough straps, my feet have never come off the pedals
> unless I wanted them to, yet I can get my feet off the pedals almost
> as easily as if the straps were not there. Furthermore, it is
> eminently possible to pull up on straps that are not quite tight, thus
> gaining a good portion of the efficiency of clips.

Many argue that you can pull up on toe clips,or alternatively that no pedal
system allows you to pull up at all, it's all in the mind. My experience is
that in the 360 degree rotation of the pedals there is one sector where SPDs
give you a power boost, not pulling up, but pulling back. This is quite
significant when climbing a hill under load or for sprinting. I'd estimate
it can allow you to ride one gear higher than just pedalling on the down
stroke. You'll feel the action when you can feel your heel pushing back into
the rear of your shoe, sometimes described as like wiping mud off your sole.
No amount of dexterous footwork with toe straps will give you this action,
and even with old school cleated road shoes you will only pull back
effectively if you have the straps tightly done up; not so easy to get the
foot out of this.

> It should also be obvious that *tight* toe straps are *dangerous*
> unless, perhaps, you are riding a fixed wheel on a velodrome (in which
> case, these days, you'd almost certainly be using clips instead of
> straps so you don't embarrass yourself by falling over while loosening
> straps... ;-) ).

Actually I thought most top track sprinters still used cleats and straps,
often double straps. Like Shane Kelly's infamous leg pull out at the start
of his time trial final.

Cheers
Peter
 
Michael Warner <[email protected]> writes:

> On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:53:50 GMT, Euan wrote:
>
>> Then exercise some god-dammed common courtesy and wait.
>
> I do wait. And wait, and wait, sometimes. And I never complain
> to them about it. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Glad to hear it. Just consider that getting wound up for something
that's outside of your control is a waste of energy.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)
 
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