New Year pedolutionists

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Euan, Jan 5, 2006.

  1. hippy

    hippy New Member

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    Zebee Johnstone In aus.bicycle on Sat, 7 Jan 2006 04:25:15 +1100
    > > > hippy <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > There's an article about "unweighting" the non-pedaling foot floating
    > > around somewhere. You don't pull up as such (I think it was proved to
    > > be a waste of energy anyway) rather you lift enough to reduce the load
    > > on the pedaling foot. You're not pulling on the pedal you are just
    > > lifting your non-pedaling foot.
    >
    > Which would mean that you don't need your straps tight.

    Right. Although I did ride with tight straps when I used them it was probably pointless.

    > I found that snug straps over street shoes - usually some form of
    > running shoe with tread - worked nicely for commuting.

    I prefer SPD, but it's definately PERSONAL preference.

    > I could spin and handle bumps, and get into and out of them easily.
    > Didn't have to spend a lot of money on fancy gear and have special
    > shoes.

    My r_nners cost me double what my SPD shoes AND pedals did. They also lasted a hell of a lot longer (5+ years and still going). For someone commuting less than I was though I reckon r_unners and straps are totally fine.

    > I think the last time I looked in a bike shop they didn't have such
    > things, and it was one of the reasons I didn't buy a bike to replace
    > the grotty old MTB. I didn't want the hassle of clipless.

    Clips and straps not available? Are you serious?? I've thrown away more sets of toe-straps than I can count! They're worse than those reflectors things and bells ;)

    hippy
     


  2. ritcho

    ritcho New Member

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    Umm if r_nners are lasting >5 yrs, they're not "r_nners"... I'm not sure what they're called, but definately not "r_nners"! :D

    Ritch
     
  3. Baka Dasai

    Baka Dasai Guest

    On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 22:46:25 +1100, Peter Signorini said (and I quote):
    > But personally I've found the
    > clipless pedals (mine are Times) to be faaantastic. Have used them for over
    > 12 years now, so I think that counts as some experience. Several friends of
    > mine, who've argued for years that toe clips were the best thing out, have
    > suddenly become SPD advocates, about a month after trying SPDs. They have
    > not gone back to the toe clip.


    I've never used clipless, and I'm sure they'd be great for riding, but
    they don't suit me because of the way I use my bike.

    I use my bike for transport, so I don't want to have to wear special
    shoes everywhere I go, or, alternatively, carry an extra pair of shoes
    with me everywhere I go.

    I actually use these things called Power Straps, which are kinda like
    Toe Clips. They're basically a strap that runs diagonally across the
    pedal - you put your foot through the strap at an angle, and then when
    you straighten your foot it causes the strap to tighten. To get your
    foot out you just have to angle it and the strap loosens.

    It's easy, but the drawback is that the tightness of the strap depends
    on the bulk of the shoe, so if I have it adjusted to fit my bulkiest
    shoes it's a bit loose for my lower profile shoes.
     
  4. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2006-01-05, Zebee Johnstone (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > In aus.bicycle on Fri, 06 Jan 2006 09:51:56 +1100
    > DaveB <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> LotteBum wrote:
    >>> wear a jersey as well), doing up his toe straps (who the f*ck uses them
    >>> these days!?!)

    >>
    >> Hmmm, well I use them on the commuter and the SS. On the commuter
    >> because I don't trust my ability to unclip quick enough in CBD traffic,
    >> ad on the SS because I want to ride to the shops in whatever I'm wearing.

    >
    > I used them when I was riding to work because I couldn't see the point
    > in having to buy expensive pedals and expensive shoes.
    >
    > If you want to get people into cycling, saying "you have to buy all
    > this specialist shit or you'll get sworn at and called a fool" is
    > probably not the way to do it.


    Amen.

    Whilst I found last year that cycling knicks are certainly more
    comfortable than shorts or jeans, and that clipless shoes are nice for
    high cadence work (note, you are not meant to *pull up* on pedals,
    contrary to popular opinion -- they're only good to stop your foot
    slipping off at 90rpm, and to remove the thud at the bottom of the
    stroke), I was fine for years on lesser equipment. When I started
    getting more serious, the fact that knicks cost $60 minimum became a
    slightly lower barrier -- cycling was now a hobby rather than a means
    to and end, so justified me spending more money. The barrier of shoes
    and pedal costing $250 minimum, for such relatively little benefit,
    was not overcome til April this year.

    Truly useful things like convincing people to spin at 90rpm (and this
    suggestion comes free) are much more useful than telling them they
    need to buy $500 of kit just to start out.

    --
    TimC
    I don't want Perl to be beautiful -- I want you to write
    beautiful programs in Perl. --Larry Wall
     
  5. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2006-01-06, Zebee Johnstone (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > In aus.bicycle on Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:17:20 +1100
    > Peter Signorini <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> "Zebee Johnstone" wrote:
    >>
    >>> If you want to get people into cycling, saying "you have to buy all
    >>> this specialist shit or you'll get sworn at and called a fool" is
    >>> probably not the way to do it.

    >>
    >> I think Lotte was having a go at him more for his truly dorky riding
    >> clothes, and self-endangering riding behaviour.

    >
    > Dorky clothes is just shorthand for "not one of us".
    >
    > After all, the lycra loonies are dorkish, it's just that it isn't done
    > to say so *here* because it marks as "one of us". Everyone else
    > thinks they look like adults playing dressups. I mean pretending to
    > be part of a pro team, really! All the stickers and team names and
    > silly paintjobs and fancy gadgets - trust me, dorky is what the people
    > who see are thinking.


    Ricer cars!

    Eeeek!


    I don't like glary jerseys for just this reason. I don't like
    advertising, so why would I want to wear many company's logos
    plastered over my clothes?

    --
    TimC
    About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a
    blunt ax. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead.
    -- Edsger Dijkstra
     
  6. Kathy

    Kathy Guest

    TimC wrote:

    >
    > Whilst I found last year that cycling knicks are certainly more
    > comfortable than shorts or jeans, and that clipless shoes are nice for
    > high cadence work (note, you are not meant to *pull up* on pedals,
    > contrary to popular opinion -- they're only good to stop your foot
    > slipping off at 90rpm, and to remove the thud at the bottom of the
    > stroke),


    Kathy as you all know had real problems with cleats and is currently
    using plat pedals. (Thanks for the SPD SL pedals Kath :) On Amy's ride
    yesterday I noticed she was pushing huge gears at low cadence. 52 * 15
    up a hill IIRC.

    Turns out it was the way she figured out to keep her feet on the pedals,
    Keeping the load on if you see what I mean

    It points to what a strong cyclist she may turn into.. but sheesh... it
    aint effective. Euan.. can you give me that coaches email?


    I was fine for years on lesser equipment. When I started
    > getting more serious, the fact that knicks cost $60 minimum became a
    > slightly lower barrier -- cycling was now a hobby rather than a means
    > to and end, so justified me spending more money. The barrier of shoes
    > and pedal costing $250 minimum, for such relatively little benefit,
    > was not overcome til April this year.


    Yeah poverty is a problem. Mind you one does occasionally find shoes for
    $50 and pedals for $80. You need to keep your eyes open and grab
    stuff when you find bargains. And of course it depends on how badly you
    need stuff.

    >
    > Truly useful things like convincing people to spin at 90rpm (and this
    > suggestion comes free) are much more useful than telling them they
    > need to buy $500 of kit just to start out.


    Oh yeah.. thats so true. I try not to be so critical .. cept of
    supermarket bikes. Even GV bikes are a light year from total crap.

    Regards

    Dave
    >
     
  7. Kathy

    Kathy Guest

    TimC wrote:

    > On 2006-01-06, Zebee Johnstone (aka Bruce)
    > was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >
    >>In aus.bicycle on Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:17:20 +1100
    >>Peter Signorini <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Zebee Johnstone" wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>If you want to get people into cycling, saying "you have to buy all
    >>>>this specialist shit or you'll get sworn at and called a fool" is
    >>>>probably not the way to do it.
    >>>
    >>>I think Lotte was having a go at him more for his truly dorky riding
    >>>clothes, and self-endangering riding behaviour.

    >>
    >>Dorky clothes is just shorthand for "not one of us".
    >>
    >>After all, the lycra loonies are dorkish, it's just that it isn't done
    >>to say so *here* because it marks as "one of us". Everyone else
    >>thinks they look like adults playing dressups. I mean pretending to
    >>be part of a pro team, really! All the stickers and team names and
    >>silly paintjobs and fancy gadgets - trust me, dorky is what the people
    >>who see are thinking.

    >
    >
    > Ricer cars!
    >
    > Eeeek!
    >
    >
    > I don't like glary jerseys for just this reason. I don't like
    > advertising, so why would I want to wear many company's logos
    > plastered over my clothes?
    >


    On the ride yesterday.. was a somewhat large gentleman. with a Giant jersey.

    Dave
     
  8. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2006-01-06, Michael Warner (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:31:05 +1000, Tamyka Bell wrote:
    >
    >> I suppose if I ever bought a carbon latte racer, I'd have a chance of
    >> finding out. But I wouldn't be taking it offroad. ;)

    >
    > What is it about lattes? I'll have to take note of who orders them after
    > rides, and see whether there are any common character traits.


    <handsup>

    Although I did recently rediscover the joys of cappuccinos --- mmm,
    cheap chocolate ontop.

    --
    TimC
    cpu time/usefulness ratio too high -- core dumped.
     
  9. Kathy

    Kathy Guest

    TimC wrote:

    > On 2006-01-06, Michael Warner (aka Bruce)
    > was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >
    >>On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:31:05 +1000, Tamyka Bell wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I suppose if I ever bought a carbon latte racer, I'd have a chance of
    >>>finding out. But I wouldn't be taking it offroad. ;)

    >>
    >>What is it about lattes? I'll have to take note of who orders them after
    >>rides, and see whether there are any common character traits.

    >
    >
    > <handsup>
    >
    > Although I did recently rediscover the joys of cappuccinos --- mmm,
    > cheap chocolate ontop.
    >


    The five basic foodgroups

    Beer Chocky coffee snakes and ... what the hell is number5?

    Dave
     
  10. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2006-01-08, Kathy (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > TimC wrote:
    >> Ricer cars!
    >>
    >> Eeeek!
    >>
    >>
    >> I don't like glary jerseys for just this reason. I don't like
    >> advertising, so why would I want to wear many company's logos
    >> plastered over my clothes?
    >>

    >
    > On the ride yesterday.. was a somewhat large gentleman. with a Giant jersey.


    Yes, I noticed that, and the irony therein.

    (Did I used irony in the right sense? Whatsername from No Doubt
    confused me.)

    --
    TimC
    Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers.
     
  11. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2006-01-08, Kathy (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > TimC wrote:
    >
    >> On 2006-01-06, Michael Warner (aka Bruce)
    >> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >>>What is it about lattes? I'll have to take note of who orders them after
    >>>rides, and see whether there are any common character traits.

    >>
    >> <handsup>
    >>
    >> Although I did recently rediscover the joys of cappuccinos --- mmm,
    >> cheap chocolate ontop.

    >
    > The five basic foodgroups
    >
    > Beer Chocky coffee snakes and ... what the hell is number5?


    Pasta. Der fred.

    --
    TimC
    mathematician, n.:
    Some one who believes imaginary things appear right before your i's. --unk
     
  12. Kathy

    Kathy Guest

    TimC wrote:

    > On 2006-01-08, Kathy (aka Bruce)
    > was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >
    >>TimC wrote:
    >>
    >>>Ricer cars!
    >>>
    >>>Eeeek!
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>I don't like glary jerseys for just this reason. I don't like
    >>>advertising, so why would I want to wear many company's logos
    >>>plastered over my clothes?
    >>>

    >>
    >>On the ride yesterday.. was a somewhat large gentleman. with a Giant jersey.

    >
    >
    > Yes, I noticed that, and the irony therein.
    >
    > (Did I used irony in the right sense? Whatsername from No Doubt
    > confused me.)
    >

    Superb usage. Irony in its truest sense. With the gentleman concerned
    utterly oblivious to his unfortunate circumstance.. (and even more
    unfortunate circumference)

    Dave
     
  13. Kathy

    Kathy Guest

    TimC wrote:

    > On 2006-01-08, Kathy (aka Bruce)
    > was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >
    >>TimC wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>On 2006-01-06, Michael Warner (aka Bruce)
    >>> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >>>
    >>>>What is it about lattes? I'll have to take note of who orders them after
    >>>>rides, and see whether there are any common character traits.
    >>>
    >>><handsup>
    >>>
    >>>Although I did recently rediscover the joys of cappuccinos --- mmm,
    >>>cheap chocolate ontop.

    >>
    >>The five basic foodgroups
    >>
    >>Beer Chocky coffee snakes and ... what the hell is number5?

    >
    >
    > Pasta. Der fred.
    >


    Hmmm I thought it might be, but surely chips belong somewhere....
     
  14. James Pearce

    James Pearce Guest

    Kathy wrote:
    >
    >
    > TimC wrote:
    >
    >>

    <stuff deleted>
    >>
    >> Truly useful things like convincing people to spin at 90rpm (and this
    >> suggestion comes free) are much more useful than telling them they
    >> need to buy $500 of kit just to start out.

    >
    >
    > Oh yeah.. thats so true. I try not to be so critical .. cept of
    > supermarket bikes. Even GV bikes are a light year from total crap.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Dave
    >
    >>

    >

    How 'bout some advice regarding spinning from you guys ... one of my
    mental barriers in increasing my cadence has been that not only am I
    powering the bike, I am also shifting my weighy legs less efficiently
    compared with pushing a heaview weight at a lower cadence. Do the
    benefits of spinning apply regardless, or can leg weight (and associated
    power for pushing) be a factor?

    Jimmay
     
  15. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2006-01-08, Kathy (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > TimC wrote:
    >> On 2006-01-08, Kathy (aka Bruce)
    >> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >>>TimC wrote:
    >>>>Although I did recently rediscover the joys of cappuccinos --- mmm,
    >>>>cheap chocolate ontop.
    >>>
    >>>The five basic foodgroups
    >>>
    >>>Beer Chocky coffee snakes and ... what the hell is number5?

    >>
    >> Pasta. Der fred.

    >
    > Hmmm I thought it might be, but surely chips belong somewhere....


    I dunno, but I think I've just worked out how to solve my dinner
    problem tonight. I wonder if the local chippery is open at this time
    of night on a Sunday?

    --
    TimC
    A: Top posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  16. Kathy

    Kathy Guest

    TimC wrote:
    > On 2006-01-08, Kathy (aka Bruce)
    > was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >
    >>TimC wrote:
    >>
    >>>On 2006-01-08, Kathy (aka Bruce)
    >>> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >>>
    >>>>TimC wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>Although I did recently rediscover the joys of cappuccinos --- mmm,
    >>>>>cheap chocolate ontop.
    >>>>
    >>>>The five basic foodgroups
    >>>>
    >>>>Beer Chocky coffee snakes and ... what the hell is number5?
    >>>
    >>>Pasta. Der fred.

    >>
    >>Hmmm I thought it might be, but surely chips belong somewhere....

    >
    >
    > I dunno, but I think I've just worked out how to solve my dinner
    > problem tonight. I wonder if the local chippery is open at this time
    > of night on a Sunday?
    >

    Hmmmmmm Robyns cooking tonight, I have no such problem.

    Snakes I think she said :)

    Dave
     
  17. TimC

    TimC Guest

    On 2006-01-08, James Pearce (aka Bruce)
    was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    > How 'bout some advice regarding spinning from you guys ... one of my
    > mental barriers in increasing my cadence has been that not only am I
    > powering the bike, I am also shifting my weighy legs less efficiently
    > compared with pushing a heaview weight at a lower cadence. Do the
    > benefits of spinning apply regardless, or can leg weight (and associated
    > power for pushing) be a factor?


    Physically, yes it seems that high cadence would be wasting energy,
    but physiologically, the human body just works better at higher
    cadences.

    I had a natural cadence somewhere around 60 or so. By attempting to
    time my revolutions against the clock, I was able to keep it a fair
    bit higher than that -- you do slip back into old habits occasionally,
    at first. Keep at it, and eventually it becomes natural. Now that I
    have a cadence sensor on my computer, I can force myself to go
    90+/-5rpm. I do certainly notice that my natural cadence varies by
    +/- 15 or so, depending on leg fatigue, tiredness, time of day, phase
    of moon, and cosmic ray flux energy density.

    --
    TimC
    When I'M trying to get somebody fired, I always walk a mile in their
    shoes first. That way, when I get them fired and they get all angry
    with me, I'm a mile away, and I'VE GOT THEIR SHOES! HAW HAW!
    --Beable van Polasm, alt.religion.kibology
     
  18. dave

    dave Guest

    TimC wrote:
    > On 2006-01-08, James Pearce (aka Bruce)
    > was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
    >
    >>How 'bout some advice regarding spinning from you guys ... one of my
    >>mental barriers in increasing my cadence has been that not only am I
    >>powering the bike, I am also shifting my weighy legs less efficiently
    >>compared with pushing a heaview weight at a lower cadence. Do the
    >>benefits of spinning apply regardless, or can leg weight (and associated
    >>power for pushing) be a factor?

    >
    >
    > Physically, yes it seems that high cadence would be wasting energy,
    > but physiologically, the human body just works better at higher
    > cadences.
    >
    > I had a natural cadence somewhere around 60 or so. By attempting to
    > time my revolutions against the clock, I was able to keep it a fair
    > bit higher than that -- you do slip back into old habits occasionally,
    > at first. Keep at it, and eventually it becomes natural. Now that I
    > have a cadence sensor on my computer, I can force myself to go
    > 90+/-5rpm. I do certainly notice that my natural cadence varies by
    > +/- 15 or so, depending on leg fatigue, tiredness, time of day, phase
    > of moon, and cosmic ray flux energy density.
    >


    Yeah many of us learned to ride in the dark ages when pushing big gears
    was the sign of a man :) Spinning is much much healthier.
    Unfortunately I will never be a spinner. But I am slowly increasing my
    cadence.

    By riding up my least favourite little hill normally I hit a peak spead
    of about 28, my best effort with a huge following wind was 35. If I
    spin insanely I can usually manage 35

    Dave
     
  19. Dave wrote:

    > Yeah poverty is a problem. Mind you one does occasionally find shoes for
    > $50 and pedals for $80. You need to keep your eyes open and grab stuff
    > when you find bargains. And of course it depends on how badly you need
    > stuff.


    This month's Australaina Cyclist, back page, Woolys Wheels
    www.wooolyswheels.com

    Shimano MT-40 SPD shoes $99
    Shimano PD-M520 pedals $59

    Seems a good deal.

    Cheers
    Peter
     
  20. "Peter Signorini" <[email protected]> writes:

    > "David Trudgett" wrote:
    >
    >> As a toe strap wearer, I can certainly confirm what you say. It seems
    >> to be a myth made up by people in love with expensive "clipless"
    >> systems (you know, the ones with the clips) that toe straps are
    >> useless unless they are tight.

    >
    > Ah, the toe clips vs SPDs thread! Just about as infamous as a helmets
    > thread, or MSR vs Trangias on aus.bushwalking.


    Better than flying spaghetti monsters... ;-)


    >
    >> They are not useless, and I wouldn't do
    >> serious riding without them.

    >
    > I'm not about to suggest they are useless at all.


    Onya!


    > If you like them stick with them - whatever floats your boat.


    As a matter of fact, and I did at least allude to this in passing, I'm
    somewhat persuaded that clipless systems are technically superior to
    toe clips for particular purposes, those being mostly sport and
    recreation purposes. I'm pretty sure that a good clipless system would
    feel a lot better and improve peddling efficiency over toe
    clips. However, my main use of a bicycle is for transport, and for
    that purpose, in my opinion, clipless sucks, to put it in the
    vernacular. They are completely impractical for commuting and
    transport as far as I'm concerned, requiring one to change shoes every
    time one gets on or off the bike. Yes, I know there are people who do
    this, and yes, I also know some clipless system shoes can be walked
    in, for some definition of 'walk'.

    Aside from impracticality for transport, there are other issues, such
    as: price, profiteering and consumerism. We all know what the price
    issue is: they cost a fortune, unless you're lucky and pick up a
    bargain somewhere.

    The profiteering issue is that the companies that manufacture these
    goods use various mechanisms to gouge what they can from the target
    market. Some call this capitalism, but I call it greed.

    Finally, consumerism is the mindset of "buy whatever you can afford,
    and always strive to be able to afford more" instead of "buy only what
    you can justify as a necessity." It's only because of consumerism that
    profiteering works. Few people really "need" to spend big bucks on
    clipless systems (including multiple pairs of single-purpose shoes)
    when toe clips are adequate.

    Naturally, people will have legitimate differences of opinion about
    what is "adequate", since their aim is to maximise their enjoyment of
    their sport. That's fine to a point. The problem is that most people's
    opinion is not informed by a sufficient realisation of the extent to
    which unnecessary spending perpetuates the structures of oppression
    around the world.

    None of this is to say that people who buy stuff that I wouldn't buy
    are "evil". It's just pointing out a fact that people don't realise
    and don't accept that their actions have non-local effects, and how
    serious are those effects. This is not to say, either, that one
    person's actions can make a "difference", but each person has to act
    according to ethical dictates whether or not the action makes a
    "difference" (it always makes a difference in the individual person's
    life, though).



    > But personally I've found the clipless pedals (mine are Times) to be
    > faaantastic.


    I don't doubt it.


    > Have used them for over 12 years now, so I think that
    > counts as some experience. Several friends of mine, who've argued
    > for years that toe clips were the best thing out, have suddenly
    > become SPD advocates, about a month after trying SPDs. They have not
    > gone back to the toe clip.


    That assumes a certain set of values on their part, which are
    different for people who use bicycles for transport.


    >> It should also be obvious that *tight* toe straps are *dangerous*
    >> unless, perhaps, you are riding a fixed wheel on a velodrome (in which
    >> case, these days, you'd almost certainly be using clips instead of
    >> straps so you don't embarrass yourself by falling over while loosening
    >> straps... ;-) ).

    >
    > Actually I thought most top track sprinters still used cleats and
    > straps, often double straps. Like Shane Kelly's infamous leg pull
    > out at the start of his time trial final.


    Perhaps they are not so averse to embarrassment as I guessed? ;-)


    Cheers,

    David



    --

    David Trudgett
    http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

    As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
     
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