Newbie, questions about older Shimano 7 speed cassette

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by ryenol, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. ryenol

    ryenol New Member

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    I acquired an older Miele Gara 88, as I just entering this sport/life I think it will serve me well for a while. My question is about updating the rear cassette. It is set up more for flatland riding mostly I believe, the rear cogs are 12,13,14,15,17,19,21. The front are Biopace, 53,42. I have pics of the hubs/wheels, cassette and bike if tat will help. I am not looking to spend a lot of money as I understand that being an older bike it would be more cost effective to buy newer bike with newer equipment at a certain point. I believe it is a Uniglide free hub assembly.. Can I update to 10 speed? With current wheels? By transplanting a hyper glide freewheel hub? Will I need a different rear derailer, due to larger rear cogs? I want to make it a tad easier to climb some hills. Thanks for reading, any answers appreciated.
     
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  2. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    Here we go again.

    Many riders perform this conversion on a beloved old steel frame that they'd ride more if only it had more versatile gearing. So they take the integrated approach, which means new control levers, crankset, chain, derailleurs, wheels, cassette, and cabling. They also need to bend the frame and have the rear dropouts squared to accommodate the stretch from 126 to 130 mm rear hub spacing.

    Here's a moderate cost summary:
    • Control levers, $360-500
    • Crankset, $130-500
    • Bottom bracket, $25-60
    • Chain, $35-80
    • Wheel set, $300-1000
    • Front derailleur, $50-150
    • Rear derailleur, $70-200
    • cassette, $50-150
    • cables and casing, $40-60

    Or you can try do do this piecemeal. For example, you could just get the rear wheel. Dropping indexed shifting would replace the whole crankset and bottom bracket with just chainrings which may or may not fit your cranks, the control levers, and the derailleurs. Or you could have indexing with new derailleurs, cranks and bottom bracket, and bar-end shifters.

    The problem with the integrated approach is that it costs about the same as a new bike. Shimano's new 10-speed Tiagra and SRAM's Apex make this possible. The problem with doing it piecemeal is that you're going to spend a lot of time hunting down parts and exploring rabbit holes. Either way, you have a project that can keep you busy til the roads are clear.
     
  3. ryenol

    ryenol New Member

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    Thanks for reply, like I said I am new, just exlploroing, I DO NOT want I sum a ton of money into this bike, it is not beloved...lol Was a deal one couldn't pass up. Just looking for EASY upgrades /changes, if they exist ;), once again, thank you
     
  4. ryenol

    ryenol New Member

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    Only thing keeping me from riding more is ice on the road..
     
  5. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Easiest and cheapest tweak is probably another crank. That vintage, it's bound to be square taper, and square taper cranks are still plentiful and cheap once you step away from the prestige brands/models.
    Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHIMANO-NEXAVE-C600-SQUARE-TAPER-DOUBLE-CHAISET-175mm-/260788346932?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item3cb8326034 would set you up a treat.

    Theoretically, you lose a bit of top end, but that crank would still let you hit about 30 MPH which should be plenty for a fitness rider.

    Front derailer may grumble a little, but unlikely to be critical.

    You may be able to get away at less expense by going to a triple (mtb) crank. But there are more possible pitfalls down that route. Might need another bottom bracket, might not have enough throw in the front derailer to deal with a triple, maybe even chain stay clearance issues.
     
  6. jaretj

    jaretj New Member

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    Have you thought about just replacing the freewheel?

    Just about any bike store will have or can get those parts. A search on google turns this up:

    http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/shimano-mf-hg73-7-speed-freewheel?utm_campaign=products&utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&adl=1&gclid=CIWeyPzd7LQCFehDMgodiAMAgQ

    You will probably need a chain too.
     
  7. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "I want to make it a tad easier to climb some hills."

    IMO it is far quicker, cheaper and easier to get on Craig's List (or Backpage, eBay or your local equivalent of Craig's List) and simply buy a used bicycle that is set up more towards your intended riding style and terrain.

    The absolute cheapest way to lower gears is to replace only the 7-speed cassette stack with something that has a 25 or 27 inner cog, but I'm guessing the biopace rings would have to be replaced...so, new crankset also and a new chain (probably ready for one anyway).

    A 42 x 21 is a pretty stiff low gear and dropping to a 42 x 27 will give you a noticeable change from that. Going to a 39 inner ring or perhaps a compact 34 will make climbing much easier than what you have now. Everything depends on your fitness, what type of terrain you want to go over and how much spinning you want to do as you go up hills.

    Updating to a modern 10-speed drive? OBC laid it out for you...big money, possibly spread over time. Still headed well into new bike or good used bike territory when the total outlay is considered.
     
  8. ryenol

    ryenol New Member

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    I may have access to a decent set of Bontrager wheels for cheap, lets just say a steal. I'm told they'll accept a 9 or 10 speed cassette. I've been told by several as well that the front chain rings could be replaced without replacing crank..
     
  9. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    FWIW. 'I' think that replacing the crankset could be a good option, too ...

    And, 'I' think that a MTB crankset may indeed possibly be a better option ...

    • I think that a square taper SHIMANO XT-or-LX crank would use the same 113mm asymmetrical spindle which I believe your bike currently has

    • the typical Shimano MTB has 42/32/22 chainrings which would mean that you would eventually want to install a MTB rear derailleur which has a long cage.

    • you probably won't need to change the front derailleur ... in fact, the inner plate of a front derailleur intended for a Triple would probably interfere with lowering the front derailleur enough for a 42t outer chainring.

    BTW. Because of the steel chainrings, the particular NEXUS crankset could probably be used as an anchor for a small boat.
     
  10. ryenol

    ryenol New Member

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    What about the Bontrager wheels? Does anyone know if they will fit in the reader? Or would the frame need modified(spread out)? How much would a rear derailer cost? Current equipment on bike is Shimano 600(tri color?)
     
  11. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    I'd go this route, or just spring for a new bike.

    - new 7spd cassette (just going from a 21 to a 26 or 27 would be a very noticable difference). Some of the older shimano "short cage" derailleurs max out at 26t so you would want to be sure about the 27t.

    Optional:
    - new chain
    - new cranset (a compact would give a bigger range, but a 39/53 wouldn't be too bad... low gear = 39/26 or 27)
    - new BB
     
  12. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    Would the Biopace rings cause an issue just going to a larger cassette size (i.e. 21t to a 27t)?
     
  13. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    I can't say for certain, but the additional chain wrap 'might' make the Biopace shift a little weirder. Then, again, it may not! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

    I never used Biopace, but I remember friends complaining about the shifting.

    Hell bent for a 10-speed (and who wouldn't be?), I would opt for another new or used bike, myself. Miele used to build decent bikes, but...
     
  14. ryenol

    ryenol New Member

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    Thanks for the responses. Enjoying getting all kinds of info
     
  15. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Quote: Originally Posted by danfoz [​IMG]


    I'd go this route, or just spring for a new bike.

    - new 7spd cassette (just going from a 21 to a 26 or 27 would be a very noticable difference). Some of the older shimano "short cage" derailleurs max out at 26t so you would want to be sure about the 27t.

    Optional:
    - new chain
    - new cranset (a compact would give a bigger range, but a 39/53 wouldn't be too bad... low gear = 39/26 or 27)
    - new BB


    MY observation, FWIW, is that even the short cage Shimano Dura Ace (7400 generation) rear derailleur which is spec'd to 26t as a maximum cog can accommodate a 28t cog in the last position unless the frame has horizontal Campagnolo rear dropouts which have a zero-drop rear derailleur hanger ...

    But (as noted), a 26t cog should be sufficiently large for non-mountain roads for most people when paired with a 38t-or-39t inner chainring.
     
  16. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    I guess the unasked (but, I'm asking now!) and unanswered question is WHAT is your projected budget?
    FYI. If your rear wheel does have a Freehub, then you can simply replace the Freehub BODY with another one ...

    • either a compact Freehub body which uses a lockring (e.g., ACERA rear hub)
    • or, a "normal" length Freehub body which can accommodate an 8-/9-/10-speed Cassette

    As per Sheldon Brown, you will need a 10mm ALLEN WRENCH + cone wrenches ...

    • 'I' have found that the Freehub hub which is donating the Freehub needs to be (partially) laced, otherwise it will be impossible (at least for me) to achieve sufficient counter leverage against the 10mm Allen Wrench's motion.

    You CAN buy a replacement Freehub body, separately, from your LBS ... BUT, it will probably be less expensive to buy a new Shimano rear hub & cannibalize the Freehub body from it ...

    • Cannibalizing a new rear hub will also provide you with a new, longer rear axle which will be a benefit if you decide to respace the frame to 130mm ...
    • AND, you will have a "fresh" set of bearings.

    Of course, you could unlace the current hub & relace a different Shimano rear hub (if you opt to replace the hub, then ensure that it has the correct number of spoke holes ... without seeing your rear wheel, I would guess that it probably has 36 spokes whereas the typical hub which is currently available will possibly only have 32h).

    BTW. If you do not want to respace your bike's rear triangle AND if you retrofit your rear hub with a NEW "compact" Freehub body, then (as Sheldon Brown noted) you can install a "short" stack on the "compact" Freehub body ...

    • for example, a short stack 9-speed Cassette (i.e., 8 cogs) will stack onto a "compact" Freehub body ...
    • or, 9-out-of-10 cogs from a 10-speed Shimano Cassette will fit on a "compact" Freehub body ...

    • yes, that means the short-stacking a pending 11-speed Shimano Cassette will certainly fit on a "normal" Shimano Freehub body if the need arises (i.e., suppose you pony up for a set of 11-speed Shimano shifters but suddenly find yourself without an 11-speed compatible rear wheel then you unless the spline pattern is completely incompatible [which could always be the case!] then you could short stack an 11-speed Cassette on your "spare" rear wheel... )

    Quote: Originally Posted by ryenol [​IMG]

    What about the Bontrager wheels? Does anyone know if they will fit in the reader? Or would the frame need modified(spread out)?
    How much would a rear derailer cost? Current equipment on bike is Shimano 600(tri color?)

    BTW. Due to the ambiguous vintage of your bike, there IS a chance that your rear wheel has a Freewheel instead of a Cassette ...

    If that is the case, then you will probably want to relace the rear wheel with a rear hub which has a freehub & uses a Cassette OR to buy the Bontrager wheelset & respace your frame's rear triangle to 130mm.

    FYI. A Shimano MTB rear derailleur will cost between $20 & $200+ ...

    Pre-1998 Shimano Road rear derailleurs (except from the Dura Ace line) can accommodate a fairly large rear cog ...
     
  17. ryenol

    ryenol New Member

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    It is definitely a free-hub, not free wheel that is pictured on the lrft( on Sheldon's site). I am 100% confident of that. Does have threaded small cog(12tooth), so according to info on Sheldon's site it is a Uniglide.
     
  18. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Ack! Thanks for checking & repeating the description of your rear wheel's hub ...

    • the 12t cog which you previously mentioned should have been THE clue for me that your rear wheel had a Freehub, but for some reason it did not register in my mind!?!

    Again, swapping the Freehub bodies will be relatively easy once you remove the axle ...

    Other than needing the appropriate cone wrenches + 10mm Allen Wrench, you just need to remember that the hub uses loose bearings and many could fall out of the hub when you remove the axle ...

    IMO, it will be worth swapping Freehub bodies & (eventually) changing the wheel's spacing to 130mm (and, the frame's, too) even if you get the Bontrager wheelset since having a spare set of wheels is often a good thing.

    FYI. If you aren't immediately inclined to respacing the frame's rear triangle to 130mm AND if you are handy, then you can THIN the last, threaded cog (presuming that you can unthread it!!) and then short stack the Freehub with either 9-speed or 10-speed Cogs & Spacers as previously mentioned ...

    While I have NOT done the fore mentioned thinning on a Shimano threaded last cog, I have thinned some older, 8-speed 11t Campagnolo-(compatible) last cogs for both a 9-speed Campagnolo stack & a 10-speed Campagnolo stack ...

    • thinning the last cog will require using a GRINDER since the material is too hard (IMO) to use a file
    • if you have NOT used a Grinder, before, then you probably don't want to try thinning the last cog UNLESS you are willing to swap out Freehub bodies if you botch the job!
    • you can use a pair of vice-grips to hold the cog ...

    BTW. You can buy separate MICHE cogs on eBay, so you could theoretically buy a 27t Shimano-compatible cog & simply restack your current Cassette to something like 12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 27 ...

    Or, buy two MICHE cogs & restack it to 12, 13, 15, 17, 19, 24, 27 ...

    Or, whatever combination you think will work for you.

    ULTIMATELY, the least expensive option would probably be to simply buy an 8-speed Shimano, SRAM, or SunRace Cassette & omit one of the intermediate cogs + the last cog AND then continue to use the threaded 12t cog as your last cog.

    • as you may have observed, the teeth on the Uniglide Cassette's cogs are NOT ramped ...
    • ramping greatly improves the shifting to the point where the indexing does not have to be as precise ...
    • buying an OLDER 8-speed Shimano Cassettes which does not have ramped cogs & should probably be avoided (IMO) ...

    ----​

    With apologies to everyone else, let me mention for the umpteenth time that CAMPAGNOLO SHIFTERS can be mated to an otherwise Shimano drivetrain ...

    • you can usually buy a pair of "used" 10-speed Campagnolo shifters on eBay starting at about $100 ...
    • here is Chris Juden's compatibility "matrix" ...

    [​IMG]

    • AFAIK, the "Good mixed marriage" presumes UN-ramped cogs ...
    • again, the ramping on the cogs greatly improves the shifting to the point where the indexing does not have to be precise AND I think that many Cassettes-Shifter combinations can probably considered to be acceptable.

    • Campagnolo shifters can be mated to almost ANY front derailleur

    • I recommend a 9-speed SHIMANO chain as the best value ...
    • BUT, not if you are using 8-speed Shimano indexed shifters for which you will want to use an 8-speed Shimano chain
    • OR, if you are using a 10-speed Shimano shifter, then you will want to use a 10-speed Shimano chain + 10-speed Shimano front derailleur
     
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