Newbie Questions

[David]

> >
> > Would like to spend no more than $500-$600 and get something that I am not
> > going to want to upgrade again.
> >
> >

While a good fit is important, it's the type of bike fitting that is
fitted to the type of riding that's going to make you happy with your
$500 to $600 bike purchase. Make sure that a bike shop isn't going to
sell you an aerodynamic efficient road bike with drops, cause you need
to very flexible on your body joints and that is something you need to
develop over time with more cycling. That is why, upright bicycles are
selling like hot cakes, especially with newbies. There are a few
advantages of riding on drops, namely being aerodynamic. But it also
allows you to push bigger gears by ways of leveraging your body against
the drops, which you can't easily do on flat bars.

David.

 

[David]

Folks,

There are 2 main reasons in using clipless pedals. The push and pull
technique which I bet most people do not use. Most people push their
pedals at the 3 o'clock mark and while that's fine with normal pedals,
you want to be pushing the pedals before that, usually around the 1
o'clock. Again, this all depends on the flexibility of your foot
joints. Without clipless pedals, your foot will just slide out of the
pedals if you try to do this with bigger gears. The pulling technique
comes from after completing your pedal downstroke and then pulling it
up on your upstroke. To a competent cyclist, this push and pull
technique will allow you to push bigger gears efficiently, go faster on
flats and sustain good average speeds on steep mountain passes.

David.

 

[David]

> Another good bit of advice. Bike shoes have very stiff soles, since we
> don't want our feet bending around the pedal. Also, being secured to the
> pedals is extremely important. You get better power that way, and it is
> safer. Don't worry about not being able to get your foot out in a crash.
> For one, having a leg dangle about in a crash is just something else to
> break.

This is yet another misconception.. Not all bike shoes have very stiff
soles. Some shoes have stiffer soles than others. The stiffer the
soles, the harder it is to walk on -- I have a SIDI road shoes than I
can barely walk on compared to my Answer's touring shoes which are more
flexy but easier to walk on. I have one pair of commuting SPD shoes
that are just as flexible as my runners, but man it's so comfy just
walking on them. The reason I got this is because it's got SPD mount
on it.

Unless you're going to be doing any ultra long distance and be pushing
big gears, I'll stay with runners and toe strap pedals until you are
ready.

David.

 

[jj]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:38:11 GMT, David
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> >
>> > Would like to spend no more than $500-$600 and get something that I am not
>> > going to want to upgrade again.
>> >
>> >
>
>While a good fit is important, it's the type of bike fitting that is
>fitted to the type of riding that's going to make you happy with your
>$500 to $600 bike purchase. Make sure that a bike shop isn't going to
>sell you an aerodynamic efficient road bike with drops, cause you need
>to very flexible on your body joints and that is something you need to
>develop over time with more cycling. That is why, upright bicycles are
>selling like hot cakes, especially with newbies. There are a few
>advantages of riding on drops, namely being aerodynamic. But it also
>allows you to push bigger gears by ways of leveraging your body against
>the drops, which you can't easily do on flat bars.
>
>David.

This sounds wrong to me. What is an aerodynamic efficient road bike? To me
that means TT bike, not a road bike.

Second, you don't need to be more flexible in the body joints. Spinal flex
helps, but that is normally adequate unless you have a gut, or an injury.

Upright bikes are selling like 'hotcakes' to newbies b/c they are
mis-informed, mostly. Too many people may be getting knobbie tired MTB when
all they are doing is riding on the road or hard-pack dirt b/c a
dual-suspended MTB is 'trendy' - imo.

Riding on the drops allows you to get higher gears because, in my
experience, it puts your bodyweight more fully over the pedals. Newbies try
to get more power by 'pulling' on the bars, but it's better to use your
weight, like you're standing to pedal, but your butt is still on the seat.
You have a relatively light touch on the drops most of the time.

The more forward position, or 'racing' position that you obtain in the
drops -is- more aero.

The truth is, you have a lot more hand positions available using drop bars
and I rarely have to use the drops - plus holding the flat part of the bar,
your arms are closer together than on a flat-bar bike, exposing less of
your chest, which improves your aerodynamics also.

In addition, in my experience, you can sit up relatively the same on a road
bike with drop bars as with a flat bar bike. If you have an injury or flex
issues, just get a different stem, or reverse your stem, decreasing the
angle between the seat and the h/b. If your seat is too low, your legs will
have to flex more against your torso, so it might feel, in that case, like
you struggle to get into the right position on the drops. Simply raise the
seat to the optimal height and see if you don't feel better.

That's my experience - not trying to be critical, here.

jj

 

[[email protected]]

David wrote:
>
>
> This is yet another misconception.. Not all bike shoes have very
stiff
> soles. Some shoes have stiffer soles than others. The stiffer the
> soles, the harder it is to walk on -- I have a SIDI road shoes than I
> can barely walk on compared to my Answer's touring shoes which are
more
> flexy but easier to walk on. I have one pair of commuting SPD shoes
> that are just as flexible as my runners, but man it's so comfy just
> walking on them.

I've never understood why the norm is to use tiny pedals - which would
concentrate pedal forces on small areas of the foot - then compensate
by wearing shoes with broad, stiff, unwalkable platforms.

Why not use pedals with a wide platform, and have at least a moderate
amount of flex in the shoe? Certainly, clipless pedals _could_ be
designed this way.

FWIW, my commuting bike has the old Lyotard platform pedals (Mod 23? I
forget) which I ride with loose straps. The platform isn't extremely
broad, but it's fine with my dress shoes or even with rather spongy
athletic shoes. If the platform were an inch wider, I imagine I could
pedal in moccasins.

 

[jj]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:48:46 GMT, David
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Folks,
>
>There are 2 main reasons in using clipless pedals. The push and pull
>technique which I bet most people do not use. Most people push their
>pedals at the 3 o'clock mark and while that's fine with normal pedals,
>you want to be pushing the pedals before that, usually around the 1
>o'clock. Again, this all depends on the flexibility of your foot
>joints. Without clipless pedals, your foot will just slide out of the
>pedals if you try to do this with bigger gears. The pulling technique
>comes from after completing your pedal downstroke and then pulling it
>up on your upstroke. To a competent cyclist, this push and pull
>technique will allow you to push bigger gears efficiently, go faster on
>flats and sustain good average speeds on steep mountain passes.
>
>David.

Going from toe clips to clipless, my pedalling is a lot smoother and relies
a lot less on some 'artificial' push-pull.

When I'm really pedalling hard, I notice both my quads and hams are
strongly involved. When I was using toeclips, I did focus a lot more on
'pointing my toes' and pedalling in a long oval, and I did occasionally use
the 'scraping mud off the shoes' style pedalling, but it never felt
natural. My brother claims to be using this style (he has toeclips), but
he's nowhere near as fast as I am, despite being 5 years younger and 100lb
lighter - admittely he doesn't get in the mileage that I do, since I'm
retired.

I -expected- to be able to use more of the 'pulling up' when I got
clipless, but it never materialized. Just a thought. ;-)

jj

 

[[email protected]]

David wrote:
> Folks,
>
> There are 2 main reasons in using clipless pedals. The push and pull
> technique which I bet most people do not use.

I doubt anyone uses the push and pull technique except under extreme
conditions.

Lots of people think they pull up on the back part of the stroke, but I
recall reading a research paper showing the results from using
instrumented pedals with a number of road racers. When the racers
swore they were lifting the pedals on the upstroke, they were actually
just reducing the amount of down & back force they applied. That is,
they reduced the amount their back leg fought against their front leg.

There may be a few moments someone actually applies positive torque
during the back part of the pedal stroke, but I think those moments are
very few indeed.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:57:18 +0000, David wrote:

>
>> Another good bit of advice. Bike shoes have very stiff soles, since we
>> don't want our feet bending around the pedal.

> This is yet another misconception.. Not all bike shoes have very stiff
> soles. Some shoes have stiffer soles than others.

True, but I don't buy the ones with less-stiff soles.

The stiffer the
> soles, the harder it is to walk on -- I have a SIDI road shoes than I
> can barely walk on compared to my Answer's touring shoes which are more
> flexy but easier to walk on.

part of the trouble is that big glob of a road cleat. I have no trouble
walking on stiff-soled mountain bike shoes, with my Frog cleats.


> Unless you're going to be doing any ultra long distance and be pushing
> big gears, I'll stay with runners and toe strap pedals until you are
> ready.

Well, yeah, but it is a good idea to encourage getting "ready", since it
does make a big difference.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand
_`\(,_ | mathematics.
(_)/ (_) |

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:29:36 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

> I've never understood why the norm is to use tiny pedals - which would
> concentrate pedal forces on small areas of the foot - then compensate
> by wearing shoes with broad, stiff, unwalkable platforms.

It's either that or use a big, absolutely unwalkable, cleat. Besides, I
don't find that stiff-soled shoes with recessed cleats are bad for
walking at all.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

 

[jj]

On 1 Mar 2005 07:34:33 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>
>David wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> There are 2 main reasons in using clipless pedals. The push and pull
>> technique which I bet most people do not use.
>
>I doubt anyone uses the push and pull technique except under extreme
>conditions.
>
>Lots of people think they pull up on the back part of the stroke, but I
>recall reading a research paper showing the results from using
>instrumented pedals with a number of road racers. When the racers
>swore they were lifting the pedals on the upstroke, they were actually
>just reducing the amount of down & back force they applied. That is,
>they reduced the amount their back leg fought against their front leg.
>
>There may be a few moments someone actually applies positive torque
>during the back part of the pedal stroke, but I think those moments are
>very few indeed.

This makes sense. Didn't this whole 'pulling/scraping' style come from a
tip from Lemond?

Sometimes when I'm trying to recover after a very tough little hill, I'll
think about alternate pedaling styles, or maybe lifting my opposing leg
more, maybe hoping not to be dealing with the weight of my leg resting on
the pedal in addition to moving the bike forward, but it never lasts.

I did use a lot more emphasis on pedaling style when I was riding toeclips,
but all that vanished when I went to clipless. Now I know my foot and pedal
stroke are fixed, and I can tell my efficiency is improved. I don't seem to
get anything from trying to 'pull up' or 'oval', and I -know- my hams are
strongly involved when I am pedalling hard and fast - the leg naturally
uses both it seems. Still, sometimes I think about it, but no advantage so
far.

jj

 

[Dan Gregory]

[email protected] wrote:

> FWIW, my commuting bike has the old Lyotard platform pedals (Mod 23? I
> forget) which I ride with loose straps. The platform isn't extremely
> broad, but it's fine with my dress shoes or even with rather spongy
> athletic shoes. If the platform were an inch wider, I imagine I could
> pedal in moccasins.
Model 23 Lyotard Piste Marcel Berthet Single Sided ... a wonderful pedal
that I rode throughout late 50s and 60s. Much lighter than my current
Looks or Time Atacs too. I think the closest clipless to them would be
the Tima Atac Cyclo.
They cost me 21 shillings in 1961 (Just over a pound) but then I only
earnt 8 pounds a week so things are cheaper now,,
All the best
Dan Gregory

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:48:46 GMT, David
<[email protected]> from Shaw Residential Internet
wrote:

>Folks,
>
>There are 2 main reasons in using clipless pedals. The push and pull
>technique which I bet most people do not use.....

Spend a few minutes riding a fixed gear bike to see how erroneous that theory
is.

 

[Gooserider]

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:010320050638111525%[email protected]...
>
> > >
> > > Would like to spend no more than $500-$600 and get something that I am
not
> > > going to want to upgrade again.
> > >
> > >
>
> While a good fit is important, it's the type of bike fitting that is
> fitted to the type of riding that's going to make you happy with your
> $500 to $600 bike purchase. Make sure that a bike shop isn't going to
> sell you an aerodynamic efficient road bike with drops, cause you need
> to very flexible on your body joints and that is something you need to
> develop over time with more cycling. That is why, upright bicycles are
> selling like hot cakes, especially with newbies. There are a few
> advantages of riding on drops, namely being aerodynamic. But it also
> allows you to push bigger gears by ways of leveraging your body against
> the drops, which you can't easily do on flat bars.
>

What's the difference between an "upright bike" with flat bars and "road
bike" with the bars the same height as the saddle? The drop bars will be
just as upright on the tops, and then there are the additional hand
positions on the hoods and the drops. A flat bar has one position.

 

[Gooserider]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> David wrote:
> >
> >
> > This is yet another misconception.. Not all bike shoes have very
> stiff
> > soles. Some shoes have stiffer soles than others. The stiffer the
> > soles, the harder it is to walk on -- I have a SIDI road shoes than I
> > can barely walk on compared to my Answer's touring shoes which are
> more
> > flexy but easier to walk on. I have one pair of commuting SPD shoes
> > that are just as flexible as my runners, but man it's so comfy just
> > walking on them.
>
> I've never understood why the norm is to use tiny pedals - which would
> concentrate pedal forces on small areas of the foot - then compensate
> by wearing shoes with broad, stiff, unwalkable platforms.
>
I have an ancient pair of Look MTB pedals with a large platform. They're
great, and I get fewer hot spots than with my tiny SPD pedals. I guess the
weight weenies influence pedal design. There are Shimano pedals with large
platforms, though.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

[email protected] wrote:

> I've never understood why the norm is to use tiny pedals - which would
> concentrate pedal forces on small areas of the foot - then compensate
> by wearing shoes with broad, stiff, unwalkable platforms.

I have the original MTB style SPDs, which I guess are what you describe as tiny.
My shoes are stiff, but have plenty of flex in the toe area to make walking
comfortable. As long as they're stiff right under the ball of the foot,
tapering gradually toward the toe, the design works fine for both riding and
walking. If you want to blame someone, blame shoemakers for not doing a better
job.

> Why not use pedals with a wide platform, and have at least a moderate
> amount of flex in the shoe? Certainly, clipless pedals _could_ be
> designed this way.

The problem is the difference in tolerance between pedal and cleat, and pedal
and sole. Shoes vary too much, especially as they wear. We can't rely on the
precision of this interface. The softer the sole, the more the pressure will be
concentrated on the cleat, and the worse the hotspot under the rider's foot --
no matter how big the pedal platform is. The stiffer the shoe, the less the
size of the platform matters.

> FWIW, my commuting bike has the old Lyotard platform pedals (Mod 23?
> I forget) which I ride with loose straps. The platform isn't
> extremely broad, but it's fine with my dress shoes or even with
> rather spongy athletic shoes. If the platform were an inch wider, I
> imagine I could pedal in moccasins.

Yup. Use what works for you.

Matt O.

 

[[email protected]]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:29:36 -0800, frkrygow wrote:
>
> > I've never understood why the norm is to use tiny pedals - which
would
> > concentrate pedal forces on small areas of the foot - then
compensate
> > by wearing shoes with broad, stiff, unwalkable platforms.
>
> It's either that or use a big, absolutely unwalkable, cleat.

See, I don't think it has to be that way. I'm proposing that it's
possible to design a walkable cleat that interfaces with a wide, stiff
platform on the pedal. If the stiffness were in the pedal, the shoe
could flex more and make walking more comfortable. (Not that I've got
any design ideas sketched out, mind you!)

I suspect part of the reason for the current "tiny pedal" fashion is so
bike or pedal manufacturers can claim less weight. But in effect, the
weight just moves to the shoes, which have to be made heavier to
provide the necessary support to minimize hot spots.

To me, it looks similar to selling a bike without a saddle, to save
weight. To be used only with shorts featuring a built in, 1.5 pound
saddle, of course!


Besides, I
> don't find that stiff-soled shoes with recessed cleats are bad for
> walking at all.

That would be OK if I were to drive to the start of the ride, strap on
shoes, and walk to the back of the car to get my bike. Or perhaps walk
"all the way" into the coffee shop during the rest stop.

When on tour, there have been plenty of times I've wanted to walk
significant distances. I've gotten by, admittedly, but even my touring
shoes are not really comfortable for, say, a mile walk.

 

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] wrote:

> David wrote:
>
>>Folks,
>>
>>There are 2 main reasons in using clipless pedals. The push and pull
>>technique which I bet most people do not use.
>
>
> I doubt anyone uses the push and pull technique except under extreme
> conditions.
>
> Lots of people think they pull up on the back part of the stroke, but I
> recall reading a research paper showing the results from using
> instrumented pedals with a number of road racers. When the racers
> swore they were lifting the pedals on the upstroke, they were actually
> just reducing the amount of down & back force they applied. That is,
> they reduced the amount their back leg fought against their front leg.
>
> There may be a few moments someone actually applies positive torque
> during the back part of the pedal stroke, but I think those moments are
> very few indeed.

Unless they are riding PowerCranks: <http://www.powercranks.com/>.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:05:40 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

>
> That would be OK if I were to drive to the start of the ride, strap on
> shoes, and walk to the back of the car to get my bike. Or perhaps walk
> "all the way" into the coffee shop during the rest stop.
>
> When on tour, there have been plenty of times I've wanted to walk
> significant distances. I've gotten by, admittedly, but even my touring
> shoes are not really comfortable for, say, a mile walk.

Depending on which bike I ride, if I ride one that has clipless pedals I
keep cycling shoes on all day long. Fortunately I don't have to dress up
at work. Sometimes after a recreational ride I will come home and keep my
riding shoes on for hours.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
_`\(,_ | by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo
(_)/ (_) | Emerson

 

[Tom Keats]

[bunch of crossposting pruned]

In article <4ctUd.10698$Sn6.9733@lakeread03>,
"Boyle M. Owl" <[email protected]> writes:

> I have to chime in here and say that clipless pedals are much SAFER than
> clips and straps for city riding, as it is *far* easier to get in and
> out. Even comparing them to strapless toe clips, it's safer.

I'm using Zefal Christophe MTB clips, together with cordura straps.
It's actually not difficult to extact from them, and I've never had
any real safety issues with them. And they work with street shoes
as well as cycling shoes.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

 

[Zoot Katz]

1 Mar 2005 07:29:36 -0800,
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote, in part:
rec.bicycles.soc removed from x-post.

>FWIW, my commuting bike has the old Lyotard platform pedals (Mod 23? I
>forget) which I ride with loose straps. The platform isn't extremely
>broad, but it's fine with my dress shoes or even with rather spongy
>athletic shoes.

I'd used those pedals on my touring bike for many years and tens of
thousands of miles. I love 'em. However, before I went to clipless on
most of my bikes, I tried PowerGrips. I'd become so accustomed to the
PowerGrips it was a long-lasting and painfully debilitating shock
when, on and aborted start, I couldn't twist out of the Lyotard pedals
with their cinched straps.

Seeing as the PowerGrips can't be adapted for use on that model of
Lyotard pedal, I switched to EggBeaters for awhile. Now the Lyotard
pedals are back on that bike as they're the most correct choice for
that period of European equipped touring bicycle.
Fashions be damned, they're still a fine pedal.
--
zk