news about pantani's autopsy

[Takayasu Kenduma]

i think no one here mentioned the news about pantani's autopsy.
the legal doctor who examined pantani's body, professor Giuseppe
Fortuni, gave in the last days his definitive report (230 pages) to
judge Paolo Gengarelli who is investigating about marco's death.
the cause of the death is overdose of cocaine. marco used very pure
cocaine (he was a rich boy...) and he didn't want commit suicide.
this is for the "social" doping side. on the "sport" side there is
something more interesting.
the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
doping.
professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
similar to leukaemia.
now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
find.
it's like find use of cigarettes. if you smoked 5 cigarettes 7 years
ago nothing can be said looking your lungs, but if you smoke 10
cigarettes every day for 10 years they find evidence.

 

If he used it only once to enhance his performance, it's still cheating. Who
cares if it didn't damage his marrow? I'm sorry he passed, it was amazing to
watch him race/climb, but if he cheated, HE CHEATED!

"Takayasu Kenduma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> i think no one here mentioned the news about pantani's autopsy.
> the legal doctor who examined pantani's body, professor Giuseppe
> Fortuni, gave in the last days his definitive report (230 pages) to
> judge Paolo Gengarelli who is investigating about marco's death.
> the cause of the death is overdose of cocaine. marco used very pure
> cocaine (he was a rich boy...) and he didn't want commit suicide.
> this is for the "social" doping side. on the "sport" side there is
> something more interesting.
> the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
> doping.
> professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
> pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
> you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
> globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
> similar to leukaemia.
> now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
> great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
> find.
> it's like find use of cigarettes. if you smoked 5 cigarettes 7 years
> ago nothing can be said looking your lungs, but if you smoke 10
> cigarettes every day for 10 years they find evidence.

 

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"<<<<<< ]] gun_dog99 [[ >>>>>>" <||||||| woof-woof |||||> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> If he used it only once to enhance his performance, it's still cheating.
Who
> cares if it didn't damage his marrow? I'm sorry he passed, it was amazing
to
> watch him race/climb, but if he cheated, HE CHEATED!

He only cheated in the races where it was proven - which is only Milan-Turin
in 1995, a race he did not even finish. Therefore, Pantani was clean in any
race he finished, let alone won.

Jonathan.

 

He cheated, it tarnished him. He should have come back, had the support he
needed to fight his depression, and pulled a Viranque (or how ever you spell
his name). But that's not possible now.
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "<<<<<< ]] gun_dog99 [[ >>>>>>" <||||||| woof-woof |||||> schreef in
bericht
> news:[email protected]...
> > If he used it only once to enhance his performance, it's still cheating.
> Who
> > cares if it didn't damage his marrow? I'm sorry he passed, it was
amazing
> to
> > watch him race/climb, but if he cheated, HE CHEATED!
>
> He only cheated in the races where it was proven - which is only
Milan-Turin
> in 1995, a race he did not even finish. Therefore, Pantani was clean in
any
> race he finished, let alone won.
>
> Jonathan.
>
>

 

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"<<<<<< ]] gun_dog99 [[ >>>>>>" <||||||| woof-woof |||||> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> He cheated, it tarnished him. He should have come back, had the support he
> needed to fight his depression, and pulled a Viranque (or how ever you
spell
> his name). But that's not possible now.

That single race? I don't think it tarnished him. His record climb on Alpe
d'Huez - that's whet he's remembered for, as well as rescuing the 1998 tour.

Jonathan.

 

[gym gravity]

Takayasu Kenduma wrote:
> i think no one here mentioned the news about pantani's autopsy.
> the legal doctor who examined pantani's body, professor Giuseppe
> Fortuni, gave in the last days his definitive report (230 pages) to
> judge Paolo Gengarelli who is investigating about marco's death.
> the cause of the death is overdose of cocaine. marco used very pure
> cocaine (he was a rich boy...) and he didn't want commit suicide.
> this is for the "social" doping side. on the "sport" side there is
> something more interesting.
> the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
> doping.
> professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
> pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
> you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
> globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
> similar to leukaemia.
> now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
> great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
> find.
> it's like find use of cigarettes. if you smoked 5 cigarettes 7 years
> ago nothing can be said looking your lungs, but if you smoke 10
> cigarettes every day for 10 years they find evidence.

I heard that the doctor found that he hadn't been doping within the last
8 months, which makes sense, because it was a year ago when he quit
racing.

 

[Laz]

Thanks for the info. Maybe some of the readers here who are
considering using EPO themselves are well advised of the permanent
damage caused by it.

After the tour was over, I showed my wife the 98 Giro which I taped
from the RAI feed here just to show his wonderful climbing style and
the quality of the RAI coverage compared to OLN's. It was very sad to
see what we lost when this little guy checked-out.

Laz

[email protected] (Takayasu Kenduma) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> i think no one here mentioned the news about pantani's autopsy.
> the legal doctor who examined pantani's body, professor Giuseppe
> Fortuni, gave in the last days his definitive report (230 pages) to
> judge Paolo Gengarelli who is investigating about marco's death.
> the cause of the death is overdose of cocaine. marco used very pure
> cocaine (he was a rich boy...) and he didn't want commit suicide.
> this is for the "social" doping side. on the "sport" side there is
> something more interesting.
> the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
> doping.
> professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
> pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
> you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
> globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
> similar to leukaemia.
> now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
> great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
> find.
> it's like find use of cigarettes. if you smoked 5 cigarettes 7 years
> ago nothing can be said looking your lungs, but if you smoke 10
> cigarettes every day for 10 years they find evidence.

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
> the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
> doping.
> professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
> pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
> you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
> globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
> similar to leukaemia.
> now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
> great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
> find.

I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
is quoted above.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]

 

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS]

Bob Schwartz wrote:

> Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
>>doping.
>>professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
>>pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
>>you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
>>globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
>>similar to leukaemia.
>>now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
>>great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
>>find.
>
>
> I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
> Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
> is quoted above.
>
> Bob Schwartz
> [email protected]

No mention of anything like this in my PDR.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[Kyle Legate]

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> "<<<<<< ]] gun_dog99 [[ >>>>>>" <||||||| woof-woof |||||> schreef in
> bericht news:[email protected]...
>> If he used it only once to enhance his performance, it's still
>> cheating. Who cares if it didn't damage his marrow? I'm sorry he
>> passed, it was amazing to watch him race/climb, but if he cheated,
>> HE CHEATED!
>
> He only cheated in the races where it was proven - which is only
> Milan-Turin in 1995, a race he did not even finish. Therefore,
> Pantani was clean in any race he finished, let alone won.
>
What did he test positive for?

 

[Kyle Legate]

Laz wrote:
> Thanks for the info. Maybe some of the readers here who are
> considering using EPO themselves are well advised of the permanent
> damage caused by it.
>
Permanent damage is backed up by which studies? A cursory search of Pubmed
didn't yield anything for me.

 

[Richard Adams]

Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
> > the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
> > doping.
> > professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
> > pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
> > you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
> > globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
> > similar to leukaemia.
> > now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
> > great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
> > find.
>
> I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
> Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
> is quoted above.
>
> Bob Schwartz
> [email protected]

Bob, just because it's widely used doesn't mean it doesn't have side
effects. Ever see/hear the disclaimers for some of the drugs
advertised these days? e.g. May cause sweating, vomitting, diarrhea,
male pattern baldness, cooties, etc.

I've been on some meds that have very serious side effects (e.g.
Isoniazid) which no way would I take unless it was prescribed. Though
I am not a pharmacist nor doctor, I expect EPO in most forms may cause
long term damage, hence it's regulated, otherwise it would probably be
over the counter, right?

"I'm feeling a tad run down, nip down to the chemist for some EPO,
willya, son?"

 

[Bob in CT]

On 3 Aug 2004 11:47:13 -0700, Richard Adams <[email protected]> wrote:

> Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
>> > doping.
>> > professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
>> > pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
>> > you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
>> > globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
>> > similar to leukaemia.
>> > now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
>> > great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
>> > find.
>>
>> I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
>> Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
>> is quoted above.
>>
>> Bob Schwartz
>> [email protected]
>
> Bob, just because it's widely used doesn't mean it doesn't have side
> effects. Ever see/hear the disclaimers for some of the drugs
> advertised these days? e.g. May cause sweating, vomitting, diarrhea,
> male pattern baldness, cooties, etc.
>
> I've been on some meds that have very serious side effects (e.g.
> Isoniazid) which no way would I take unless it was prescribed. Though
> I am not a pharmacist nor doctor, I expect EPO in most forms may cause
> long term damage, hence it's regulated, otherwise it would probably be
> over the counter, right?
>
> "I'm feeling a tad run down, nip down to the chemist for some EPO,
> willya, son?"

It might also be regulated because it has to be injected (or does it?). I
don't know of any unregulated drug that has to be injected. It might also
be regulated because enough studies haven't been done on it or because it
can be easily overdosed, etc.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

 

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS]

Richard Adams wrote:

> Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
>>>doping.
>>>professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
>>>pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
>>>you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
>>>globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
>>>similar to leukaemia.
>>>now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
>>>great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
>>>find.
>>
>>I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
>>Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
>>is quoted above.
>>
>>Bob Schwartz
>>[email protected]
>
>
> Bob, just because it's widely used doesn't mean it doesn't have side
> effects. Ever see/hear the disclaimers for some of the drugs
> advertised these days? e.g. May cause sweating, vomitting, diarrhea,
> male pattern baldness, cooties, etc.
>
> I've been on some meds that have very serious side effects (e.g.
> Isoniazid) which no way would I take unless it was prescribed. Though
> I am not a pharmacist nor doctor, I expect EPO in most forms may cause
> long term damage, hence it's regulated, otherwise it would probably be
> over the counter, right?
>
> "I'm feeling a tad run down, nip down to the chemist for some EPO,
> willya, son?"

I think the evidence that it is dangerous when improperly used is quite
obvious and abundant, without positing an imaginary cancer risk that is
not realistic when the drug is used as intended.
Since it is used in patients with very significant illnesses, potential
adverse reactions might well be accepted where they would not in a drug
used for a relatively trivial purpose--say Rogaine.
Again, I see no citation in the PDR regarding any cancer-like syndrome.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[Ernst Noch]

Richard Adams wrote:

>
> Bob, just because it's widely used doesn't mean it doesn't have side
> effects. Ever see/hear the disclaimers for some of the drugs
> advertised these days? e.g. May cause sweating, vomitting, diarrhea,
> male pattern baldness, cooties, etc.
>
> I've been on some meds that have very serious side effects (e.g.
> Isoniazid) which no way would I take unless it was prescribed. Though
> I am not a pharmacist nor doctor, I expect EPO in most forms may cause
> long term damage, hence it's regulated, otherwise it would probably be
> over the counter, right?

That doesn't follow. There are drug which kill if overdosed and which do
no harm when not, and many of these are also regulated. I expect EPO
could belong to that category. Btw., EPO is produced naturally by the
human body.

EPO is a very common drug given to dialysis patients, and I know a
little bit about the negative long term effects of dialysis, but have
never heard about something related to EPO.
See for instance:
http://www.kidney.org/atoz/atozItem.cfm?id=60

 

[gwhite]

Richard Adams wrote:
>
> Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
> > > doping.
> > > professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
> > > pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
> > > you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
> > > globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
> > > similar to leukaemia.
> > > now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
> > > great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
> > > find.
> >
> > I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
> > Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
> > is quoted above.
> >
> > Bob Schwartz
> > [email protected]
>
> Bob, just because it's widely used doesn't mean it doesn't have side
> effects. Ever see/hear the disclaimers for some of the drugs
> advertised these days? e.g. May cause sweating, vomitting, diarrhea,
> male pattern baldness, cooties, etc.


I wonder how much of this is due to lawsuits. That is,
publicizing/disclosing side-effects may hold a certain amount of
"informed consent" benefit for the producers of medication. Maybe BL
can comment.

*Everything* has side effects, some worse than others. A permanent
side-effect is just one type. Many will be transient. And even if they
are permanent does not mean the trade-off is not worth it.



> I've been on some meds that have very serious side effects (e.g.
> Isoniazid) which no way would I take unless it was prescribed. Though
> I am not a pharmacist nor doctor, I expect EPO in most forms may cause
> long term damage, hence it's regulated, otherwise it would probably be
> over the counter, right?

I would not make this assumption.

> "I'm feeling a tad run down, nip down to the chemist for some EPO,
> willya, son?"

Whatever works.

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Bob in CT" <[email protected]>
>
> It might also be regulated because it has to be injected (or does it?). I
> don't know of any unregulated drug that has to be injected. It might also
> be regulated because enough studies haven't been done on it or because it
> can be easily overdosed, etc.
>

Just because they're regulated in the USA doesn't mean they're regulated in
other countries.

 

[Steven Bornfeld]

Carl Sundquist wrote:
> "Bob in CT" <[email protected]>
>
>>It might also be regulated because it has to be injected (or does it?). I
>>don't know of any unregulated drug that has to be injected. It might also
>>be regulated because enough studies haven't been done on it or because it
>>can be easily overdosed, etc.
>>
>
>
> Just because they're regulated in the USA doesn't mean they're regulated in
> other countries.

I'd also resist the notion that medications are regulated in any way
that is rationally related to their potential dangers.

Steve

>
>

 

[Jonathan v.d. Sluis]

"Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> > "<<<<<< ]] gun_dog99 [[ >>>>>>" <||||||| woof-woof |||||> schreef in
> > bericht news:[email protected]...
> >> If he used it only once to enhance his performance, it's still
> >> cheating. Who cares if it didn't damage his marrow? I'm sorry he
> >> passed, it was amazing to watch him race/climb, but if he cheated,
> >> HE CHEATED!
> >
> > He only cheated in the races where it was proven - which is only
> > Milan-Turin in 1995, a race he did not even finish. Therefore,
> > Pantani was clean in any race he finished, let alone won.
> >
> What did he test positive for?

Pantani never tested positive, but since a judge ruled that he had actually
used doping in that case, it has officially been proven that he did nine
years ago - even though I can't tell you what the actual proof entails
(something to do with wildly fluctuating crit levels). Once. For the latter
part of his career, after his amazing comeback, the Armstrong defense works
quite well, as there really is no proof against Pantani.

 

[Bob in CT]

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 22:24:50 -0400, Steven Bornfeld
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>> "Bob in CT" <[email protected]>
>>
>>> It might also be regulated because it has to be injected (or does
>>> it?). I
>>> don't know of any unregulated drug that has to be injected. It might
>>> also
>>> be regulated because enough studies haven't been done on it or because
>>> it
>>> can be easily overdosed, etc.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Just because they're regulated in the USA doesn't mean they're
>> regulated in
>> other countries.
>
> I'd also resist the notion that medications are regulated in any way
> that is rationally related to their potential dangers.
>
> Steve
>
>>
>>
>

Both are good points.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply