news about pantani's autopsy

  • Thread starter Takayasu Kenduma
  • Start date



"Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


<snip>

> Bob, just because it's widely used doesn't mean it doesn't have side
> effects.


Like with EPO, one of the side effects is hauling ass on your bike for
extended periods of time
Dave
 
Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
> Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
> is quoted above.
>
> Bob Schwartz
> [email protected]



if your studies on effects of epo say so, write to professor fortuni
and show your data. probably the medical community will be grateful to
you.
 
Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...


>> I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
>> Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
>> is quoted above.
>>
>> Bob Schwartz
>> [email protected]


> if your studies on effects of epo say so, write to professor fortuni
> and show your data. probably the medical community will be grateful to
> you.


You got that backwards. The statement in question came out of Prof
Fortuni's ass, not mine.

Bob
 
Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...


>> I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
>> Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
>> is quoted above.
>>
>> Bob Schwartz
>> [email protected]


> if your studies on effects of epo say so, write to professor fortuni
> and show your data. probably the medical community will be grateful to
> you.


You got that backwards. The statement in question came out of Prof
Fortuni's ass, not mine.

Bob
 
Dave H wrote:

> "Richard Adams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>Bob, just because it's widely used doesn't mean it doesn't have side
>>effects.

>
>
> Like with EPO, one of the side effects is hauling ass on your bike for
> extended periods of time
> Dave
>
>

Another "side effect" of epo is a neuro-protective effect, unrelated to
red-cell production. Like every gene in the body, it has more than one
role. Soon people will get epo when they suffer head trauma.
 
"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Takayasu Kenduma <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message

news:<[email protected]>...
>
> >> I'm calling ******** on this. EPO is a very, very widely used drug.
> >> Mostly by people that are very sick. I don't believe it does what
> >> is quoted above.
> >>
> >> Bob Schwartz
> >> [email protected]

>
> > if your studies on effects of epo say so, write to professor fortuni
> > and show your data. probably the medical community will be grateful to
> > you.

>
> You got that backwards. The statement in question came out of Prof
> Fortuni's ass, not mine.


He probably knows what he is talking about. As a non-expert, I'm more
inclined to believe a doctor than someone just calling '********'.
 
Jonathan v.d. Sluis <[email protected]> wrote:
> He probably knows what he is talking about. As a non-expert, I'm more
> inclined to believe a doctor than someone just calling '********'.


Well, it is true that I am not in the medical field. But I do know
that serious, previously unknown side effects resulting from drugs
that are in widespread use are typically not made public in this
fashion.

So I guess I'm just cynical.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]
 
Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>> "Bob in CT" <[email protected]>
>>
>>> It might also be regulated because it has to be injected (or does
>>> it?). I don't know of any unregulated drug that has to be
>>> injected. It might also be regulated because enough studies
>>> haven't been done on it or because it can be easily overdosed, etc.
>>>

>> Just because they're regulated in the USA doesn't mean they're
>> regulated in other countries.

>
> I'd also resist the notion that medications are regulated in any way
> that is rationally related to their potential dangers.
>

Dristan nasal spray is controlled where I am.
 
Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
> > "Bob in CT" <[email protected]>
> >
> >>It might also be regulated because it has to be injected (or does it?). I
> >>don't know of any unregulated drug that has to be injected. It might also
> >>be regulated because enough studies haven't been done on it or because it
> >>can be easily overdosed, etc.
> >>

> >
> >
> > Just because they're regulated in the USA doesn't mean they're regulated in
> > other countries.

>
> I'd also resist the notion that medications are regulated in any way
> that is rationally related to their potential dangers.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject:
Re: Cortisone (sp?)
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:04:20 -0400
From:
Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
Newsgroups:
rec.bicycles.racing
References:
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9


gwhite wrote:


(snip)

Making potentially hazardous medications available directly to
patients
does not "protect the consumer".
Is this Larouche stuff?

Steve

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


You're a funny guy Steve.
 
Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > He probably knows what he is talking about. As a non-expert, I'm more
> > inclined to believe a doctor than someone just calling '********'.

>
> Well, it is true that I am not in the medical field. But I do know
> that serious, previously unknown side effects resulting from drugs
> that are in widespread use are typically not made public in this
> fashion.
>
> So I guess I'm just cynical.


if there are no side effects why put that drug in doping list....?
one thing is a therapy on sick people one thing is using quantities
over the suggested protocols with athlets without deseases. it's like
to have a pacemaker without hearth deseases or taking insuline if you
don't have diabetes.
don't be acid. the fact pantani didn't dope himself is not lowering
armstrong's shining glory....
 
gwhite wrote:

>
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>>Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>
>>>"Bob in CT" <[email protected]>
>>>
>>>>It might also be regulated because it has to be injected (or does it?). I
>>>>don't know of any unregulated drug that has to be injected. It might also
>>>>be regulated because enough studies haven't been done on it or because it
>>>>can be easily overdosed, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Just because they're regulated in the USA doesn't mean they're regulated in
>>>other countries.

>>
>> I'd also resist the notion that medications are regulated in any way
>>that is rationally related to their potential dangers.

>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Subject:
> Re: Cortisone (sp?)
> Date:
> Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:04:20 -0400
> From:
> Steven Bornfeld <[email protected]>
> Newsgroups:
> rec.bicycles.racing
> References:
> 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9
>
>
> gwhite wrote:
>
>
> (snip)
>
> Making potentially hazardous medications available directly to
> patients
> does not "protect the consumer".
> Is this Larouche stuff?
>
> Steve
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> You're a funny guy Steve.


Like, funny, "ha-ha" funny?
This is a difficult issue, and not really for discussion (in the wider
sense) in this newsgroup. But the regulators are in a difficult place,
and I sympathize with their situation. There is no way they can make
all parties happy. The unfortunate outcome is not entirely their fault,
given the political pressures they are under on all sides. This doesn't
mean the regulation isn't a mess, nor that they shouldn't try to do better.

Best,
Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
 
"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > He probably knows what he is talking about. As a non-expert, I'm more
> > inclined to believe a doctor than someone just calling '********'.

>
> Well, it is true that I am not in the medical field. But I do know
> that serious, previously unknown side effects resulting from drugs
> that are in widespread use are typically not made public in this
> fashion.
>
> So I guess I'm just cynical.


How do you know it was a previously unknown side effect? Wouldn't this sort
of thing be known from testing on lab animals?

If it was a team doctor, I would be cynical too, but given the amount of
witch-hunting* Pantani underwent, I don't think Italian police have much to
gain by clearing his name. Proving that he did use EPO for extended periods
might make all the trials and interrogations seem worthwhile.

Jonathan.

* A word that cyclingnews has also introduced now that accusations are
mounting up against english-speaking riders, too. It never referred to what
happened to Pantani in the past, probably because it would not look funny on
the april fools' page. Still I think it can safely be used here.
 
- You didn't address my point. You completely sidestepped it.
- Your assumption regarding my feelings about LANCE is incorrect.
- If you really believe that Pantani didn't dope then *you* must be on drugs.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]
 
Jonathan v.d. Sluis <[email protected]> wrote:
> How do you know it was a previously unknown side effect? Wouldn't this sort
> of thing be known from testing on lab animals?


Yes it would, wouldn't it? That is exactly my point. To date our
only reference to this side effect being proof of EPO use is a
statement issued by the guy that did Pantani's autopsy. If you
want to accept that as peer reviewed research, great.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]
 
Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
> "Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]...
>> Jonathan v.d. Sluis <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> He probably knows what he is talking about. As a non-expert, I'm
>>> more inclined to believe a doctor than someone just calling
>>> '********'.

>>
>> Well, it is true that I am not in the medical field. But I do know
>> that serious, previously unknown side effects resulting from drugs
>> that are in widespread use are typically not made public in this
>> fashion.
>>
>> So I guess I'm just cynical.

>
> How do you know it was a previously unknown side effect? Wouldn't
> this sort of thing be known from testing on lab animals?
>

Animal tests don't give the whole story. You need the human factor which is
contributed by the clinical trials, but while the numbers of participants
are large, they don't give the whole range of possible side effects. The
clinical trials only determine if a drug is "safe enough". The side effects
list gets changed as new side effects are encountered. Drugs can be recalled
if they start to accumulate dangerous side effects that weren't revealed
during the clinical trials. Think thalidamide.
 
"Takayasu Kenduma" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> i think no one here mentioned the news about pantani's autopsy.
> the legal doctor who examined pantani's body, professor Giuseppe
> Fortuni, gave in the last days his definitive report (230 pages) to
> judge Paolo Gengarelli who is investigating about marco's death.
> the cause of the death is overdose of cocaine. marco used very pure
> cocaine (he was a rich boy...) and he didn't want commit suicide.
> this is for the "social" doping side. on the "sport" side there is
> something more interesting.
> the doctor did some examinations on the bones to find evidences of
> doping.
> professor Fortuni believed to find damaged marrow in the bones of
> pantani, due to the use of epo. BUT..... he didn't find anything.
> you know, epo stimulates some cells in the body to produce red
> globules but it causes alterations to those cells, causing a disease
> similar to leukaemia.
> now science can say marco didn't make use of epo for long time or in
> great quantity because they didn't find the alteration they should
> find.
> it's like find use of cigarettes. if you smoked 5 cigarettes 7 years
> ago nothing can be said looking your lungs, but if you smoke 10
> cigarettes every day for 10 years they find evidence.


The guy is dead. Let him rest in peace.

Damn.
 

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