Newsflash For You Usa Die Hards

[meehs]

Point is most people don't know this, thus the post. Are all of you this rude when someone tries to help, or just the ones that live on here in their own waste?

Ummm... correct me if I'm wrong but I think it was you that said:

Yep, you've all been shafted.

and

Don't ya just hate it when someone knows more than you do?

I personally haven't been shafted. I own two Rivendells and one custom Carl Strong. I know exactly where all three of my bikes were designed, built, painted and assembled. And I can assure you that you don't know anything more than I do. Anyone who slaps down big bucks for a high-end bike should do their research.

You're the one being a moron coming here and acting as though you're smarter than everyone else (see the above quotes to refresh your memory).

 

[DiabloScott]

I don't get the "Usa diehards" thing. Do some people think that Merciers or Motebecanes or Windsors are made in USA?

I don't like the business model of purchasing trademarked names from years past and putting them on products that have no relationship to the originals; that's my biggest gripe with these guys, but apparently it works and is cheaper than paying marketing consultants to come up with new names and building reputations.

Specialized built in Taiwan? - no problem, mine says so right on the seat tube.

Mongoose sold at Walmart? That's using Mongoose's reputation as a selling point without providing any of the reasons Mongoose HAD a reputation.

Mercier sold on eBay? (ditto Mongoose - even if the new "Merciers" are fine bikes)

"Pacific" sold at Costco - generic bike, stupid design, flashy paint, low price tag but not claiming to be something it isn't (well, it's barely a bike but....)

 

[Nick H.]

I don't care whether the original post was spam or trolling - it's still an interesting point, and worthy of an intelligent discussion. .

Everybody here seems happy with Taiwanese quality control. So maybe that means that I'm the one who's been shafted - because I paid $7000 for a Serotta frame (inc. forks and paint) and I'm not even American. I suspect my dollars are helping to subsidise a part of the industry that we might all miss if it were to disappear. A friend of mine has worked for Trek and Specialised - he told me a couple of years ago that about 90% of the western market was owned by the big three: Giant, Specialized and Trek. Do we approve of this trend? If you look at other comparable industries where there's been similar consolidation - e.g..cars - it means the consumer gets better value but less choice. A low-cost blandness ends up being the dominant force.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

A friend of mine has worked for Trek and Specialised - he told me a couple of years ago that about 90% of the western market was owned by the big three: Giant, Specialized and Trek.

It used to be owned by the big two: Schwinn and Raleigh ... and maybe a little by Huffy on the low end side. At some point even the largest monopolies crumble. Unfortunately, while they exist technology can stagnate.

 

[Steve_in_NH]

So maybe that means that I'm the one who's been shafted - because I paid $7000 for a Serotta frame (inc. forks and paint) and I'm not even American.

Are you happy with the bike? Would you do it again?
Answer yes to either of those and you have not been shafted.

 

[14max]

Unfortunately, while they exist technology can stagnate.

Man, ain't that the truth? I prefer to go with a dynamic company like Cannondale. They seem to innovate more.

 

[DiabloScott]

Everybody here seems happy with Taiwanese quality control. So maybe that means that I'm the one who's been shafted - because I paid $7000 for a Serotta frame (inc. forks and paint) and I'm not even American.

If you knew what you were getting, how much you were paying for it, weren't pressured or tricked into the deal, and were aware of other options you could have had, then you weren't shafted. Whatever anyone else thinks about your decision, it is YOUR decision and you made it with your eyes open.

If Serotta sells his name to Merida and "Serotta Legends" start showing up at for half price, you might be tricked into thinking you're getting something you're not and paying too much for it.

 

[Nick H.]

Oh, I'm very happy with my bike - I came all the way to the US to buy it in preference to stuff like Colnago, Bianchi, Eddy Merckx, Pinarello etc. And I'd buy another one tomorrow. I was just playing devil's advocate to encourage people to think about the consequences of always chasing the lowest-cost option.

 

[Gadrides]

I don't get the "Usa diehards" thing. Do some people think that Merciers or Motebecanes or Windsors are made in USA?

I don't like the business model of purchasing trademarked names from years past and putting them on products that have no relationship to the originals; that's my biggest gripe with these guys, but apparently it works and is cheaper than paying marketing consultants to come up with new names and building reputations.

Specialized built in Taiwan? - no problem, mine says so right on the seat tube.

Mongoose sold at Walmart? That's using Mongoose's reputation as a selling point without providing any of the reasons Mongoose HAD a reputation.

Mercier sold on eBay? (ditto Mongoose - even if the new "Merciers" are fine bikes)

"Pacific" sold at Costco - generic bike, stupid design, flashy paint, low price tag but not claiming to be something it isn't (well, it's barely a bike but....)

Finally someone that gets it. LOL

 

[DiabloScott]

Finally someone that gets it. LOL

Hey - I got a reputation to uphold!

Now on the other side of the coin, you got Flandria Bikes, they're open about not being the "old" Flandria Bikes, and are ostensibly sincere in wanting to resurrect the brand and uphold the quality that goes with the reputation. They purchased the name but eveybody who buys one knows they're made in England, knows the true story behind the name, and won't feel shafted.


Relaunched internationally in 2002, Flandria is conscious of this proud heritage. We have not forgotten the legacy of these riders. They continue to inspire us in our efforts to carry the Flandria torch forward. The Lion of Flanders, the company’s new logo, symbolizes the values they embodied.

Today we aim to produce bikes that live up the standards set by our predecessors. We not only build our bikes that will withstand harsh conditions such as the cobbles of Flanders, but, thanks to the very latest in modern cycling technology, will excel in them

 

[Gadrides]

Hey - I got a reputation to uphold!

Now on the other side of the coin, you got Flandria Bikes, they're open about not being the "old" Flandria Bikes, and are ostensibly sincere in wanting to resurrect the brand and uphold the quality that goes with the reputation. They purchased the name but eveybody who buys one knows they're made in England, knows the true story behind the name, and won't feel shafted.


Relaunched internationally in 2002, Flandria is conscious of this proud heritage. We have not forgotten the legacy of these riders. They continue to inspire us in our efforts to carry the Flandria torch forward. The Lion of Flanders, the company’s new logo, symbolizes the values they embodied.

Today we aim to produce bikes that live up the standards set by our predecessors. We not only build our bikes that will withstand harsh conditions such as the cobbles of Flanders, but, thanks to the very latest in modern cycling technology, will excel in them

Exactly. All three of the sellers dealing with Bikesdirect on Ebay make it a point to bring up about... this brand being Lance Armstrongs first bike, another bike brand that the world record was once set on, and Motobecane inventing the Moped, etc. But they make no mention that these company are the same in name only with the ones they are pushing now. Not even the people working there are the same. The companies died long ago, and these guys bought the trade name so they can make these claims. Smart, but not ethical in my book. But I still like my bike.

 

[WINGNUTT]

Personally, I look at almost every product I buy to see if it's made in the USA. If it is, then I know it's a ripoff, and I won't buy it, and I'll go and look for a similar product made in Taiwan or China.

There is one thing that's not entirely true about what you said. I don't think all the bikes are the same because the name brand frames are normally not designed by the Taiwanese mfgs. Although the Far East manufacturers do a lot of the manufacturing work, much of the frame design still comes from designers in the US and Europe. If you think the Taiwanese understand racing performance, just go over to the next Interbike show and pick up a frame in any of the generic Taiwanese manufacturer booths - the carbon frames weight 3 lbs +, the tubes are not aerodynamic, and there are few features built to enhance rigidity. To design a good frame takes a good designer. To manufacture that frame efficiently takes a good Taiwanese or Chinese factory.

That being said, most of the differences in the frames are not noticeable by most of the people buying them.

Also, all the Litespeed and Merlin Titanium stuff is still made in TN. Same with the really high end Trek carbon stuff - made in WN.

 

[Gadrides]

Personally, I look at almost every product I buy to see if it's made in the USA. If it is, then I know it's a ripoff, and I won't buy it, and I'll go and look for a similar product made in Taiwan or China.

There is one thing that's not entirely true about what you said. I don't think all the bikes are the same because the name brand frames are normally not designed by the Taiwanese mfgs. Although the Far East manufacturers do a lot of the manufacturing work, much of the frame design still comes from designers in the US and Europe. If you think the Taiwanese understand racing performance, just go over to the next Interbike show and pick up a frame in any of the generic Taiwanese manufacturer booths - the carbon frames weight 3 lbs +, the tubes are not aerodynamic, and there are few features built to enhance rigidity. To design a good frame takes a good designer. To manufacture that frame efficiently takes a good Taiwanese or Chinese factory.

That being said, most of the differences in the frames are not noticeable by most of the people buying them.

Also, all the Litespeed and Merlin Titanium stuff is still made in TN. Same with the really high end Trek carbon stuff - made in WN.

Actually in that country is doesn't matter who designs them. They still have other name brand labels put on them. Some of these are very obvious when you see them side by side.

Here's the two main factories in Taiwan. The names in bold should be labeled Bikesdirect in my opinion. But as you see they share manufacturers.

IDEAL builds for Fuji, Trek, Motobecane, Windsor, Terry, Dawes and many others.

MERIDA builds for Specialized, Jamis, Mercier, Felt, Bianchi, and many others.

 

[WINGNUTT]

Actually in that country is doesn't matter who designs them. They still have other name brand labels put on them. Some of these are very obvious when you see them side by side.

Here's the two main factories in Taiwan. The names in bold should be labeled Bikesdirect in my opinion. But as you see they share manufacturers.

IDEAL builds for Fuji, Trek, Motobecane, Windsor, Terry, Dawes and many others.

MERIDA builds for Specialized, Jamis, Mercier, Felt, Bianchi, and many others.

It's my understanding that Ideal also builds frames for BMC.

Any idea who builds the carbon stuff for Cervelo, Merckx, and Pinarello? I think the alloy frames are still made in Europe for all three of these mfgs.

 

[Gadrides]

It's my understanding that Ideal also builds frames for BMC.

Any idea who builds the carbon stuff for Cervelo, Merckx, and Pinarello? I think the alloy frames are still made in Europe for all three of these mfgs.

Sorry, I only found this ino when looking into the four bike brand mentioned previously and bikesdirect. I do know that some of the so called made in USA and many carbon frames are also made in Taiwan and rebaged. More to follow. Some of this info is hidden quite well from the consumer. And for good reason as some International trade laws are being violated, but that should surprise anybody because it happens all time with many products. It's a matter of greed and the old mighty dollar.

 

[dhk]

Sorry, I only found this ino when looking into the four bike brand mentioned previously and bikesdirect. I do know that some of the so called made in USA and many carbon frames are also made in Taiwan and rebaged. More to follow. Some of this info is hidden quite well from the consumer. And for good reason as some International trade laws are being violated, but that should surprise anybody because it happens all time with many products. It's a matter of greed and the old mighty dollar.

Giant is of course another major Taiwan manufacturer. Have read they the world's largest, and now produce their lower-end bikes in China and elsewhere in asia.

It's not greed, but survival in a competitive global marketplace. You and I may be willing to pay a premium for a bike built in the US, but we're not in the majority. If Trek wants to keep selling a full line of bikes, they had no choice but to go to China and Taiwan. Customers shopping for a $1000 bike want the most bike for the dollar, even if it comes with the Made in China sticker on the headtube. I'd like to see the US bike manufacturing survive, but it's clearly going to be high-end only stuff, not the value-for-dollar end of the market where $100 price difference makes the sale.

Country of origin is a difficult issue on bikes anyway. EG, my bike was welded and painted by a local builder. The frameset is Columbus Zonal, which is an italian-brand. But, I was told the tubeset is actually made in Taiwan. The CF rear stays are from Taiwan as well. For components, I picked some US companies: Reynolds fork, FSA, Ritchey, Thomson, Velomax. Believe all but FSA were made in the US, but as you say, it's hard to know for sure.

 

[Gadrides]

Giant is of course another major Taiwan manufacturer. Have read they the world's largest, and now produce their lower-end bikes in China and elsewhere in asia.

It's not greed, but survival in a competitive global marketplace. You and I may be willing to pay a premium for a bike built in the US, but we're not in the majority. If Trek wants to keep selling a full line of bikes, they had no choice but to go to China and Taiwan. Customers shopping for a $1000 bike want the most bike for the dollar, even if it comes with the Made in China sticker on the headtube. I'd like to see the US bike manufacturing survive, but it's clearly going to be high-end only stuff, not the value-for-dollar end of the market where $100 price difference makes the sale.

Country of origin is a difficult issue on bikes anyway. EG, my bike was welded and painted by a local builder. The frameset is Columbus Zonal, which is an italian-brand. But, I was told the tubeset is actually made in Taiwan. The CF rear stays are from Taiwan as well. For components, I picked some US companies: Reynolds fork, FSA, Ritchey, Thomson, Velomax. Believe all but FSA were made in the US, but as you say, it's hard to know for sure.

When someone intentionally violates International Trade laws it’s driven by greed. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. Most people who violate the law do it out of greed. Else they would find other ways.

 

[litespeedguy]

I agree with WINGNUT on one of his points - hi end Litespeed/Merlin & Treks are still designed and made in the US - but in '02 I got my US made Litespeed & I don't feel ripped off.

I recently bought a Specialized Hybrid/Urban bike probably made in Taiwan and I like the bike - the only complaint I have is that some of the metal is prone to showing signs of rust a little too easily - mainly the rear cogs.

 

[Gadrides]

I agree with WINGNUT on one of his points - hi end Litespeed/Merlin & Treks are still designed and made in the US - but in '02 I got my US made Litespeed & I don't feel ripped off.

I recently bought a Specialized Hybrid/Urban bike probably made in Taiwan and I like the bike - the only complaint I have is that some of the metal is prone to showing signs of rust a little too easily - mainly the rear cogs.

That's true. My point was that many of the bikes made overseas are also designed in the USA.