NEWSFLASH: Jan Ullrich has been fired by his team T-Mobile !

[bauerfan]

Well the story ain't over yet, it's somehow getting more and more strange every day. I think i am right when i say TM don't have evidence. On Radsportnews Ludwig says that TM and Jan Ullrich might come together again (ýesterday he said the same to sportwereld.be ):

http://radsportnews.net/2006/tdf19ludwig.shtml

I read it more that T-Mobile is afraid of a public relations backlash. Isn't what Ludwig is saying is that if Ullrich can prove he is innocent to us we will welcome him back? I think this may just be damage control -- T-Mobile can say we gave him the chance to the very end to prove he was innocent. The other way this could go is that they have realized they have gone too far. The meeting results in a rapprochment. Pevenage and Sevilla are sacrificed with appropriate compensation. Jan appears innocent. T-Mobile announces that they are keeping Ullrich but he has agreed to extraordinary doping control including by the Germans despite his Swiss residency. T-Mobile can then claim a win-win. We have saved the greatest German cyclist of all time and are proceeding with our goal of a drug free sport. I wish I could be a fly on the wall at that meeting.

 

[cyclingheroes]

I read it more that T-Mobile is afraid of a public relations backlash. Isn't what Ludwig is saying is that if Ullrich can prove he is innocent to us we will welcome him back? I think this may just be damage control -- T-Mobile can say we gave him the chance to the very end to prove he was innocent. The other way this could go is that they have realized they have gone too far. The meeting results in a rapprochment. Pevenage and Sevilla are sacrificed with appropriate compensation. Jan appears innocent. T-Mobile announces that they are keeping Ullrich but he has agreed to extraordinary doping control including by the Germans despite his Swiss residency. T-Mobile can then claim a win-win. We have saved the greatest German cyclist of all time and are proceeding with our goal of a drug free sport. I wish I could be a fly on the wall at that meeting.

I don't know what will happen but i do know TM is having a growing problem with important parts of the team. Tonight there was an interview with Klöden on German tv where he said he is 100% sure Jan is innocent, he would know Jan very well (they are close friends) and he would have noticed if Jan would dope. He also said he doesn't like the (as he called it) "pre-convictions" that where made by the press and others (he ment TM). Kessler is also again and again supporting Ullrich (Kessler is the "secret" team leader, captain of the road). There are rumours that Klöden & Kessler might leave the team because of TM's handling of the JU case (both contracts are expiring).

I think the case will somehow be settled, i don't think JU will race for TM again. It's gonna be intresting to see what the next steps will be.

 

[musette]

Kloden also dedicated his Tour accomplishments to JU.

Interestingly, Klodie is the person who stands to gain most from JU's sacking. There aren't that many German top riders who are not on Gerolsteiner and who could lead TM.

 

[bobke]

I don't know what will happen but i do know TM is having a growing problem with important parts of the team. Tonight there was an interview with Klöden on German tv where he said he is 100% sure Jan is innocent, he would know Jan very well (they are close friends) and he would have noticed if Jan would dope. He also said he doesn't like the (as he called it) "pre-convictions" that where made by the press and others (he ment TM). Kessler is also again and again supporting Ullrich (Kessler is the "secret" team leader, captain of the road). There are rumours that Klöden & Kessler might leave the team because of TM's handling of the JU case (both contracts are expiring).

I think the case will somehow be settled, i don't think JU will race for TM again. It's gonna be intresting to see what the next steps will be.

Well excuse me Andreas, but who sez you werent doping with Jan?????
When the dust settles we may know what happened, but riders saying things like they are 100% sure is not the way to go. Lets all recall how many riders and folks like us said that about a certain Tyler H.

Lets also recall that ROlf Aldag's comments about how Jan always had a single room and there were times when it was clear that no one was to enter his room--except his trainer, even if he had a roommate and that there were suspicions in the team...well those comments quickly vanished from the websites yesterday so T-Mobile is a world wide media communications conglomerate and not some Belgian flooring company. They know how to spin control. SO lets all just wait and see.

 

[limerickman]

Well excuse me Andreas, but who sez you werent doping with Jan?????
When the dust settles we may know what happened, but riders saying things like they are 100% sure is not the way to go..

.............but you're 100% sure than JU doped!
So you haven't decided to wait for the dust to settle.
A contradiction, non?

Lets all recall how many riders and folks like us said that about a certain Tyler H.

This is hilarious.
Hamilton failed a blood test.
Two different sets of antigens were found in the same Hamilton sample.
A first for mankind - a human with two different sets of antigens in his blood!!!!!
And you still contend that he wasn't blood doping.
CAS upheld his cheating too.


In the meantime, you've charged, tried and convicted Ullrich on the basis of a bag of blood in a clinic with the name of Jan on it!!!

Next you'll say you're not partisan!

SO lets all just wait and see.

Yeah, try taking your own advise.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Well excuse me Andreas, but who sez you werent doping with Jan?????

Who says you didn't dope? Posts like these lead to nowhere...

 

[bauerfan]

I think the case will somehow be settled, i don't think JU will race for TM again. It's gonna be intresting to see what the next steps will be.[/QUOTE]I would have placed money on Ullrich not ever racing again and especially not for T-Mobile a couple of day ago. Now I am not so sure. For the sake of his own retirement plans and his friends and especially his future brother-in-law he needs a good reputation. He may have to race a couple of years without any hint of scandal to do this. T-Mobile may now need him -- they can't be seen as destroying one of Germany's greatest sports heroes without any solid proof. This is almost as bad as T-Mobile race tactics. No one knows where this is going!

 

[limerickman]

Who says you didn't dope? Posts like these lead to nowhere...

Agreed.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Bild (bigest newspaper in Germany, a tabloid and not always writing the truth...) writes in their Sunday edition that DS Olaf Ludwig will have to go as well:
http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/sport/aktuell/2006/07/23/ullrich-nie-wieder-rad/hg-3-olaf-ludwig.html

Ludwig said yesterday that TM and Ullrich might come together again...

 

[limerickman]

I would have placed money on Ullrich not ever racing again and especially not for T-Mobile a couple of day ago. Now I am not so sure. For the sake of his own retirement plans and his friends and especially his future brother-in-law he needs a good reputation. He may have to race a couple of years without any hint of scandal to do this. T-Mobile may now need him -- they can't be seen as destroying one of Germany's greatest sports heroes without any solid proof. This is almost as bad as T-Mobile race tactics. No one knows where this is going!

This whole affair is getting more machiavellian by the day.

The refusal of the UCI to publish the evidence in this case - is contributing to the problem here.
I for one would welcome any moves by JU to get this matter ventilated in an open manner.
Until now, the only public information is that a bag containing blood with the name JAN on it, was found in Madrid and a reference to Son of Rudy.

If this is the basis for JU's dismissal - then TM are on very thin ice and JU will sue and win massive damages running in to literally millions.

Now Bild are running a story about Ludwig.
Where is all of this going?

 

[bauerfan]

Bild (bigest newspaper in Germany, a tabloid and not always writing the truth...) writes in their Sunday edition that DS Olaf Ludwig will have to go as well:
http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/sport/aktuell/2006/07/23/ullrich-nie-wieder-rad/hg-3-olaf-ludwig.html

Ludwig said yesterday that TM and Ullrich might come together again...

The Bild is always suspect. However, if T-Mobile wants a scapegoat and wants to bring Ullrich back Ludwig is as good as anywhere to place blame on -- "We had nothing to do with it -- it was all Olaf's idea". I get the feeling that T-Mobile is lacking direction and doesn't know what to do. It is throwing out alot of trial balloons to see which way the wind is blowing -- it could be using Bild in this regard.

 

[limerickman]

The Bild is always suspect. However, if T-Mobile wants a scapegoat and wants to bring Ullrich back Ludwig is as good as anywhere to place blame on -- "We had nothing to do with it -- it was all Olaf's idea". I get the feeling that T-Mobile is lacking direction and doesn't know what to do. It is throwing out alot of trial balloons to see which way the wind is blowing -- it could be using Bild in this regard.

Speculation time.
Bringing JU back.

I'll put my cards on the table here - I am a JU fan.

But if TM bring back JU - without getting to the bottom of the alllegations/evidence/proof - then neither JU or the sport will be any better off.

 

[cyclingheroes]

The Bild is always suspect. However, if T-Mobile wants a scapegoat and wants to bring Ullrich back Ludwig is as good as anywhere to place blame on -- "We had nothing to do with it -- it was all Olaf's idea". I get the feeling that T-Mobile is lacking direction and doesn't know what to do. It is throwing out alot of trial balloons to see which way the wind is blowing -- it could be using Bild in this regard.

Yes it's possible and as i wrote in my post Bild is a tabloid who doesn't always write the truth (now that's an understatement). But Bild is often used for campaigns (in the last weeks against JU), the Ludwig story isn't the only story in tomorrows edition. There is also an interview with Peter Becker. An Ullrich is a nice guy with bad company story and all over sudden it is not so sure anymore that he did dope.

Your thoughts could be right: TM is trying to get an idea where the wind is coming from. But it's all very confusing (ZDF interview with Klöden tonight: Jan is innocent), 2 weeks long you hear, see and read guilty, guilty, guilty and all over sudden the climate changes (a bit)....

 

[limerickman]

Yes it's possible and as i wrote in my post Bild is a tabloid who doesn't always write the truth (now that's an understatement). But Bild is often used for campaigns (in the last weeks against JU), the Ludwig story isn't the only story in tomorrows edition. There is also an interview with Peter Becker. An Ullrich is a nice guy with bad company story and all over sudden it is not so sure anymore that he did dope.

Your thoughts could be right: TM is trying to get an idea where the wind is coming from. But it's all very confusing (ZDF interview with Klöden tonight: Jan is innocent), 2 weeks long you hear, see and read guilty, guilty, guilty and all over sudden the climate changes (a bit)....

Kloden and JU are very close : they're lifelong friends.

I don't know much about Kloden - he keeps his cards close to his chest by all accounts and for him to make a definitive statement like he did, is very interesting.
With JU out of the way at TM, Klodens bargaining power (especially after finishing at the TDF as well as he did) has increased vis-a-vis TM.
Commercially Kloden could do even better by assuming TM's No1 position.
Yet he is prepared to foresake this - and to stand by JU.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Kloden and JU are very close : they're lifelong friends.

I don't know much about Kloden - he keeps his cards close to his chest by all accounts and for him to make a definitive statement like he did, is very interesting.
With JU out of the way at TM, Klodens bargaining power (especially after finishing at the TDF as well as he did) has increased vis-a-vis TM.
Commercially Kloden could do even better by assuming TM's No1 position.
Yet he is prepared to foresake this - and to stand by JU.

I couldn't say it better, you have an important point (i didn't think of it, to much Klöden Riesling after todays ITT i guess...) : Klöden is not the kind of guy to go out to the media and makes a statement like that (that's more the Kessler style or in the old days Udo Bölts). Klöden has something to loose he earns about 1.5 million euros and it will probebly be much more next year and yet he goes out and challenges his sponsor (and he didn't do it once, he did it several times during the TdF and evry day it's getting louder and more direct).

 

[bauerfan]

Yes it's possible and as i wrote in my post Bild is a tabloid who doesn't always write the truth (now that's an understatement). But Bild is often used for campaigns (in the last weeks against JU), the Ludwig story isn't the only story in tomorrows edition. There is also an interview with Peter Becker. An Ullrich is a nice guy with bad company story and all over sudden it is not so sure anymore that he did dope.

Your thoughts could be right: TM is trying to get an idea where the wind is coming from. But it's all very confusing (ZDF interview with Klöden tonight: Jan is innocent), 2 weeks long you hear, see and read guilty, guilty, guilty and all over sudden the climate changes (a bit)....

I'm in Canada. You're in Germany. Where is the public going in Germany? If opinion despite all the negativity is going pro Ullrich T-Mobile may have decided they had better support him. They will have to find a way to do this without losing face. Ullrich has not made their efforts to vilify him any easier by fully supporting his team and teammates -- his only criticism has been in regard the non-personal manner of his dismissal -- something that could actually endear him to the German public. His teammates full support also makes it hard for T-Mobile -- compare to the silence at CSC from both Basso and his teammates. I do not know who has been managing Jan's PR in reaction to all the charges but in my mind given the circumstances it has been handled quite well. The next couple of days will decide the immediate future of German cycling. Wow!

 

[cyclingheroes]

I'm in Canada. You're in Germany. Where is the public going in Germany?

It's devided.

 

[limerickman]

I couldn't say it better, you have an important point (i didn't think of it, to much Klöden Riesling after todays ITT i guess...) : Klöden is not the kind of guy to go out to the media and makes a statement like that (that's more the Kessler style or in the old days Udo Bölts). Klöden has something to loose he earns about 1.5 million euros and it will probebly be much more next year and yet he goes out and challenges his sponsor (and he didn't do it once, he did it several times during the TdF and evry day it's getting louder and more direct).

Well this only struck me when you said that Kloden had been making statements that JU, in his (AK's) view is innocent.
I wasn't aware that Kloden had made any statements concerning this affair.

Then when I read what you had posted about Kloden - it struck me that Kloden cannot possibly gain by making such statements of support for JU.

Klodens bargaining power with TM is at it's strongest point now, this very day.
He could negotiate a very lucrative contract - on the basis that JU is in suspension.

But instead - Kloden goes out and supports Ullrich.
Kloden has had to live in JU's shadow for years - you'd assume that if he was in it for the money that he would have kept quiet.
But no - he has come out and supported JU.

This is very very significant, i think.

 

[jhuskey]

I have not seen the proof of Jan's discretions and as an expert witness,which I am in certain venues, and as my companies "legal rep" I seek proof and ,I will wait to see verified evidence, and as previously posted "go down with the ship".
Re ispa loquitor

 

[cyclingheroes]

I have not seen the proof of Jan's discretions and as an expert witness,which I am in certain venues, and as my companies "legal rep" I seek proof and ,I will wait to see verified evidence, and as previously posted "go down with the ship".
Re ispa loquitor

I'll go with you - the ship... (but now i have to sleep - it's late but it was simply to hot here and the airconditioning isn't working..., but the Klöden Riesling is finished so i can sleep anyway now ).