Next best thing to a Brooks Pro



M

Michael Press

Guest
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Jobst Brandt wrote:
> > > >
> > > > As I said, it would get away from writing endless definitions of a
> > > > bicycle to thwart making this a technical event instead of an athletic
> > > > event. We have the HPVA for the technical side of the sport already.
> > > > The ideal is to level the playing field while at the same time not
> > > > interfere with athletic competition....
> > >
> > > This is an OPINION of what is ideal.
> > >
> > > There is no inherent reason why a competition that allows technical
> > > freedom is better OR worse than one that restricts equipment to the
> > > same standard.
> > >
> > > Jobst Brandt appears to believe that the "ideal" bicycle design was
> > > arrived at on April 1, 1934, and no further improvement is possible.

> >
> > In a time when cycling was game for innovation,
> > where are the recumbents?
> > <http://www.antiquemaps.de/cycling.html>

>
> <http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/02/the_first_recum.html>?


There's one.

> Kirkpatrick Macmillan's first bicycle had a semi-recumbent riding
> position:
> <http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Mccallvelos.jpg/451px-Mccallvelos.jpg>.
>
> The bicycle and second rate professional rider Francis Faure breaking
> Oscar Egg's long standing hour record, leading to the UCI banning
> recumbents: <http://www.cyclegenius.com/images/faure.jpg>.


I agree that it should not be banned. I want to see
them compete against upright bicycles. What about the
UCI rule banning structures to reduce air resistance?

>
> There are some more that appear in books, but are not easily (if at
> all) found on the WWW.


--
Michael Press
 
C

Chalo

Guest
DougC wrote:
>
> If you'd switch to recumbent bikes, you'd find that "most seats are more
> than comfortable enough", even without padded shorts. Also the
> crank-forward bikes (the "sport series") from RANS are nice too. I've
> got a Fusion, it's quite lovely.
>
> Just like with cars, motorcycles, boats, airplanes.... why is it that
> upright bicycles are the only vehicles that have this "ass pain
> problem"? ...It's because upright bicycle ergonomics are simply poor,
> and no saddle can fix that.


Someone who's never ridden a motorcycle will not be able to ride one
for three hours without pain. Someone who's well accustomed to a big
street bike won't be able to go a hour on a motocross bike without
pain. But you don't want to show up to Sturgis in a Camry, and you
won't be doing any triple jumps or rutted singletrack on an Electra
Glide.

'Bents are bikes for all occasions just like chaise lounges are seating
for all occasions. Which is to say... they're not. Some of us have no
problems sitting for hours in an armchair, or a folding chair, or on a
barstool, and there are many contexts in which those make much more
sense than a recliner.

'Bents have their place, but it's a much more limited application than
that of the archetypal DF bike. If all any of us wanted to do was roll
down endless straight flat deserted highways, then 'bents might be
ideal for that. But some of us want or need better manueverability,
better start/stop characteristics, better climbing, smaller overall
size, superior wheel rollover, tolerance of poor surfaces, ability to
ride through steps up or down, etc.

Tell me-- how does your bent do riding up two or three stairs, or down
forty of them? How does it handle in the mud? Can you navigate a
block worth of tightly packed sidewalk and then take to the street
without dismounting? Can you tote it up four flights of stairs every
day and stow it in a small closet? How about riding it over a fallen
tree or a parking berm? Can you fit it in the trunk of a car?

For that matter, can you even ride your 'bent no-handed? Can you do it
around a corner?

Enjoy your recliner. I'm sure it's quite comfy. But it doesn't come
without its tradeoffs.

Chalo
 
C

Chalo

Guest
DougC wrote:
>
> If you'd switch to recumbent bikes, you'd find that "most seats are more
> than comfortable enough", even without padded shorts. Also the
> crank-forward bikes (the "sport series") from RANS are nice too. I've
> got a Fusion, it's quite lovely.
>
> Just like with cars, motorcycles, boats, airplanes.... why is it that
> upright bicycles are the only vehicles that have this "ass pain
> problem"? ...It's because upright bicycle ergonomics are simply poor,
> and no saddle can fix that.


Someone who's never ridden a motorcycle will not be able to ride one
for three hours without pain. Someone who's well accustomed to a big
street bike won't be able to go a hour on a motocross bike without
pain. But you don't want to show up to Sturgis in a Camry, and you
won't be doing any triple jumps or rutted singletrack on an Electra
Glide.

'Bents are bikes for all occasions just like chaise lounges are seating
for all occasions. Which is to say... they're not. Some of us have no
problems sitting for hours in an armchair, or a folding chair, or on a
barstool, and there are many contexts in which those make much more
sense than a recliner.

'Bents have their place, but it's a much more limited application than
that of the archetypal DF bike. If all any of us wanted to do was roll
down endless straight flat deserted highways, then 'bents might be
ideal for that. But some of us want or need better manueverability,
better start/stop characteristics, better climbing, smaller overall
size, superior wheel rollover, tolerance of poor surfaces, ability to
ride through steps up or down, etc.

Tell me-- how does your bent do riding up two or three stairs, or down
forty of them? How does it handle in the mud? Can you navigate a
block worth of tightly packed sidewalk and then take to the street
without dismounting? Can you tote it up four flights of stairs every
day and stow it in a small closet? How about riding it over a fallen
tree or a parking berm? Can you fit it in the trunk of a car?

For that matter, can you even ride your 'bent no-handed? Can you do it
around a corner?

Enjoy your recliner. I'm sure it's quite comfy. But it doesn't come
without its tradeoffs.

Chalo
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > ...
> > The bicycle and second rate professional rider Francis Faure breaking
> > Oscar Egg's long standing hour record, leading to the UCI banning
> > recumbents: <http://www.cyclegenius.com/images/faure.jpg>.

>
> I agree that it should not be banned.


No holiday cards from Jobst Brandt and Peter Chisholm for you this year
then! ;)

> I want to see
> them compete against upright bicycles. What about the
> UCI rule banning structures to reduce air resistance?


Brought on by the great Oscar Egg:
<http://www.velorizontal.com/images/mochet/oeufdeberthet.jpg>?

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
D

DougC

Guest
Chalo wrote:
>
> Someone who's never ridden a motorcycle will not be able to ride one
> for three hours without pain. Someone who's well accustomed to a big
> street bike won't be able to go a hour on a motocross bike without
> pain. But you don't want to show up to Sturgis in a Camry, and you
> won't be doing any triple jumps or rutted singletrack on an Electra
> Glide.

Your example fails you: motorcycles, like recumbents, are generally only
sold with one seat available. The motorcycle shop does not have 30 seats
hanging on the wall for potential purchasers to "try".

Also you are mixing examples: is a Camry a motorcycle? (in the US it's a
car) And an Electra Glide is not an off-road motorcycle. If you wish to
point out that "a recumbent" cannot do all the things "that a road bike
AND an MTB can do", then I would point out that a road bike and an MTB
cannot -quite- do the same things either.

>
> 'Bents are bikes for all occasions just like chaise lounges are seating
> for all occasions. Which is to say... they're not. Some of us have no
> problems sitting for hours in an armchair, or a folding chair, or on a
> barstool, and there are many contexts in which those make much more
> sense than a recliner.

Interesting you should use the subject of chairs as an example: as you
might have noticed, a recumbent seat looks like a great many chairs sold
for other purposes; can you tell me any other chair or vehicle that uses
a bicycle-style saddle?
I have never seen any.
It's /possible/ that the reason is because "bicycle saddles are so
comfortable that if you sat on one elsewhere, you might never get up",
but I doubt it.

>
> 'Bents have their place, but it's a much more limited application than
> that of the archetypal DF bike.

Under typical use, I would not hesitate to take a recumbent anywhere
that a "typical" road bike would go.

I don't have an "off-road recumbent" as I've got no local place to ride
such a bicycle--but the typical DF bike is not any more versatile than a
recumbent is. There's a few different types of sanctioned [upright]
riding (road, MTB, cyclocross, and other less-popular/unusual types) and
it's not common to see anyone use one bicycle to compete across these
types. There are probably people who do it as a /novelty/, but they
likely don't often get to stand on the podium afterwards.

> If all any of us wanted to do was roll
> down endless straight flat deserted highways, then 'bents might be
> ideal for that. But some of us want or need better manueverability,
> better start/stop characteristics, better climbing, smaller overall
> size, superior wheel rollover, tolerance of poor surfaces, ability to
> ride through steps up or down, etc.

It's true that a recumbent is generally longer overall than an upright
bike. But a /unicycle/ is even lighter and more maneuverable than an
upright bike would be....

>
> Tell me-- (1)how does your bent do riding up two or three stairs, or down
> forty of them?

(1) Riding up stairs would probably be difficult (due to scraping at the
top), I've not ever tried it. I have ridden /down/ moderate-slope runs
of stairs, that's not a problem if I approach perpendicular at the top
and turn down them. -If the stairs are wide enough, that is. But stairs
are a pedestrian walkway anyway. (see #3 below)

> (2)How does it handle in the mud?

(2) I normally run semi-slick tires, so I don't ride it in mud. I /could
put knobbies on it/ and make a decent attempt I suppose. There are at
least a couple intrepid adventurers out there who ride (and compete) on
MTB recumbents, but they do tend to stick to running singletrack and
fire-road events.

> (3)Can you navigate a
> block worth of tightly packed sidewalk and then take to the street
> without dismounting?

(3)I do not usually ride on sidewalks at all, so I can't speak for
navigating them. Riding down a curb isn't a problem, other than the
fenders tend to strike on the way down.

....Also try to keep in mind that there is a much bigger variation in the
way that different recumbents ride than what you see with upright
bicycles. A long-wheelbase running dual big wheels (26" or 700's) would
ride quite different than a short-wheelbase running dual 20's.

> (4)Can you tote it up four flights of stairs every
> day and stow it in a small closet?

(4)Being longer overall, storage can be a problem--but if that's a
concern, some SWB's are pretty compact, only a bit longer and wider than
an upright bike would be. They are usually a bit heavier (30+ lbs) but
if you can lay down the ca$h that's not a problem either (CarBent, 18
lbs). With a recumbent you put up with a few more hassles /off/ the
bike, but you have a much more enjoyable time /on/ it. And if you're
buying a bicycle but you aren't primarily concerned how it rides, you
might as well not buy one at all.

> (5)How about riding it over a fallen
> tree or a parking berm?

(5)Can't recall having tried either. Maybe I'll re-enact that "fallen
tree and parking berm" stage of the TdF, and report back how I do.

> (6)Can you fit it in the trunk of a car?

(6)Well sure--the right recumbent, in the right car. Of course, one
could fit three men and a mule inside the trunk of a typical 1960's US
car. Some cars today store the spare tire on top of the engine, in order
to conserve what miniscule trunk space they have. Also, having small
front wheels, you don't reduce the overall bulk of a recumbent by taking
off the front wheel, like you do with an upright bike.
>
> For that matter, can you even ride your 'bent no-handed? Can you do it
> around a corner?

One I can reasonably well, the other I cannot very well unless I'm
holding a decent speed (15 mph or so). Recumbents with small front
wheels tend not to steer well no-handed; I haven't had a recumbent with
a large front wheel yet so about those I don't know. ...Also with some
recumbents, how well they steer no-handed depends partially on how the
handlebars are adjusted, and what pressures the [front] tires are run at.

And once again--is not being able to ride no-handed often a problem?
Most typical road and MTB uprights force the rider lean forward with
their weight on their hands anyway (note the "numb hands" complaints,
and padded gloves sold as a result), and in most US states riding
no-handed is illegal (as is riding on sidewalks). The only upright
bicycles that have upright seating conducive to riding no-handed are
"comfort"-style bikes, and I don't see a lot of kind words about them
around here. And I dare say it would be much more comfortable to ride 50
or 100 miles with "no hands" on a recumbent than it would be to do the
same on any upright bicycle.

>
> Enjoy your recliner. I'm sure it's quite comfy. But it doesn't come
> without its tradeoffs.
>
> Chalo
>

Ahh,,, but,,, do you really know what those tradeoffs are?.... I
remember exactly what I left when I gave away my last upright bike (a
full-suspended MTB with slicks, that I was using for short-run street
riding). The guy thought he got a deal because I let him have it for
free. Truth is, I didn't have the heart to charge him for it.

[-fini-]
 
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:56:43 -0500, DougC <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Chalo wrote:
>>
>> Someone who's never ridden a motorcycle will not be able to ride one
>> for three hours without pain. Someone who's well accustomed to a big
>> street bike won't be able to go a hour on a motocross bike without
>> pain. But you don't want to show up to Sturgis in a Camry, and you
>> won't be doing any triple jumps or rutted singletrack on an Electra
>> Glide.

>
>Your example fails you: motorcycles, like recumbents, are generally only
>sold with one seat available. The motorcycle shop does not have 30 seats
>hanging on the wall for potential purchasers to "try".


Dear Doug,

For what it's worth, there's a large variety of touring motorcycle
seats at impressive prices. The customers often spend fantastic
amounts of money replacing seats.

Unlike bicycle seats, motorcycle seats must be designed to fit
specific machines and often include a secondary passenger seat.

http://www.mustangseats.com

Note that the site, which sells only replacement motorcycle seats, is
available in English, German, Italian, French, and Spanish.

The first Harley seat, for example, is priced at only $289, but won't
fit Sportsters after 2003:

http://www.mustangseats.com/sportster/newsport.shtml

It's actually two models, one for 1982-1995, the other for 1996-2003.
Same seat style, different mounts.

Of course, in the trials backwater of motorcycling, the seat has been
replaced by a decal on a plastic fender:

http://www.gasgas.com/Gas-Gas-Media/2006-bikes/animatex260w.gif

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
C

Chalo

Guest
DougC wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Someone who's never ridden a motorcycle will not be able to ride one
> > for three hours without pain. Someone who's well accustomed to a big
> > street bike won't be able to go a hour on a motocross bike without
> > pain. But you don't want to show up to Sturgis in a Camry, and you
> > won't be doing any triple jumps or rutted singletrack on an Electra
> > Glide.

>
> Your example fails you: motorcycles, like recumbents, are generally only
> sold with one seat available. The motorcycle shop does not have 30 seats
> hanging on the wall for potential purchasers to "try".


My point is that M/Cs, 'bents, and uprights all require some
acclimation. "Recumbent butt" is real, as is saddle soreness on DF
bikes or butt burn on M/Cs. Experience and good setup allow users of
all these things to enjoy as much comfort as they care to.

Another anlogy would be the squatting-on-haunches type of sitting
position used by East Indians. Even elderly folks show no particular
discomfort with this position that would have the average Westerner
complaining within moments. But long acquaintance with this matter of
sitting allows them to practice it without distress.

> If you wish to
> point out that "a recumbent" cannot do all the things "that a road bike
> AND an MTB can do", then I would point out that a road bike and an MTB
> cannot -quite- do the same things either.


Before the early 1980s, there were just "bikes". These bikes were
often expected to perform all the duties of both a "road bike" and a
"mountain bike"-- and they still are. Such is the versatilty of the
diamond frame when not handicapped with tall gears or skinny tires.

> Interesting you should use the subject of chairs as an example: as you
> might have noticed, a recumbent seat looks like a great many chairs sold
> for other purposes; can you tell me any other chair or vehicle that uses
> a bicycle-style saddle?


My great-grandparents' farm in Louisiana has a tractor with a seat like
that. They must have been inveterate masochists, eh? Perhaps buyers
paid more for their crops because of the harsh tractor seat. Likewise
motorcycle riders before about 1950 rode their hardtail machines with
unspeakable bicycle-like seats. Ignorant bastards!
http://www.krummsindian.com/images/47blackrightside.jpg

> > Enjoy your recliner. I'm sure it's quite comfy. But it doesn't come
> > without its tradeoffs.

>
> Ahh,,, but,,, do you really know what those tradeoffs are?


Oh yes; after a few days of 'bent rental, white knuckles, struggling to
maintain lane position, struggling to start at streetlights without
wagging all over the road, struggling to free up a hand to check the
time or scratch-- in short, struggling to do almost all the things that
require no special attention even on my choppers and tallbikes-- I have
intimately familiarized myself with many of bents' characteristic
problems.

Chalo
 
C

* * Chas

Guest
"Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> DougC wrote:
> >
> > Chalo wrote:

<snip>
> My point is that M/Cs, 'bents, and uprights all require some
> acclimation. "Recumbent butt" is real, as is saddle soreness on DF
> bikes or butt burn on M/Cs. Experience and good setup allow users of
> all these things to enjoy as much comfort as they care to.
>
> Another anlogy would be the squatting-on-haunches type of sitting
> position used by East Indians. Even elderly folks show no particular
> discomfort with this position that would have the average Westerner
> complaining within moments. But long acquaintance with this matter of
> sitting allows them to practice it without distress.
>


The practice is common throughout much of East Asia including Japan.

> > If you wish to
> > point out that "a recumbent" cannot do all the things "that a road

bike
> > AND an MTB can do", then I would point out that a road bike and an

MTB
> > cannot -quite- do the same things either.

>
> Before the early 1980s, there were just "bikes". These bikes were
> often expected to perform all the duties of both a "road bike" and a
> "mountain bike"-- and they still are. Such is the versatilty of the
> diamond frame when not handicapped with tall gears or skinny tires.
>


We started riding off road in the mountains of Colorado and New Mexico
in the mid 1970's. We used regular road bikes with cyclocross sewups or
regular 700c clinchers. Later we switched to upright bars, cantilever
brakes and smaller frames for better standover clearance.

I recall that several cyclocross world championships in the late 70's
were won with Gios Torino road bikes with the only modification being
cyclocross tires.

> Oh yes; after a few days of 'bent rental, white knuckles, struggling

to
> maintain lane position, struggling to start at streetlights without
> wagging all over the road, struggling to free up a hand to check the
> time or scratch-- in short, struggling to do almost all the things

that
> require no special attention even on my choppers and tallbikes-- I

have
> intimately familiarized myself with many of bents' characteristic
> problems.
>
> Chalo
>


I briefly tried out a 'bent and found it difficult to keep balanced.

How about recumbent saddle on a horse?

Chas.
 
D

DougC

Guest
Chalo wrote:
> My point is that M/Cs, 'bents, and uprights all require some
> acclimation. "Recumbent butt" is real, as is saddle soreness on DF
> bikes or butt burn on M/Cs. Experience and good setup allow users of
> all these things to enjoy as much comfort as they care to.
>

The acclimatization period is true, it does exist--but the small surface
area of upright bicycle seats is far smaller than motorcycle seats or
recumbent seats. An upright bicycle saddle can't be made supportive,
because the legs need to stick downwards to pedal. And many
upright-bicycle riders go through trying numerous seats, and don't seem
to ever acclimatize to any of them. For that reason alone, it's just
poor design.

> Before the early 1980s, there were just "bikes". These bikes were
> often expected to perform all the duties of both a "road bike" and a
> "mountain bike"-- and they still are. Such is the versatilty of the
> diamond frame when not handicapped with tall gears or skinny tires.
>

Yea, and I'd bet that if we could go back in time, there'd be a lot of
people "back in the 1980's" who thought that bicycle saddles were
uncomfortable then, too. And there were recumbents out there also.

> My great-grandparents' farm in Louisiana has a tractor with a seat like
> that. They must have been inveterate masochists, eh? Perhaps buyers
> paid more for their crops because of the harsh tractor seat. Likewise
> motorcycle riders before about 1950 rode their hardtail machines with
> unspeakable bicycle-like seats. Ignorant bastards!
> http://www.krummsindian.com/images/47blackrightside.jpg
>

If you had a top-down view of that motorcycle seat, you'd see that it is
quite unlike a bicycle saddle. The motorcycle seat is basically oval
with some contouring for a human's rear end--just like tractor seats
were. You can get discomfort from sitting on them a long time, but it's
nothing anywhere near as severe as what an upright bicycle saddle would
do to you over the same amount of time. Motorcycle and tractor seats
have no /noses/, and as a result they have much more surface area to
support the rider's weight. They are NOT like a bicycle saddle. Go buy a
vintage tractor or motorcycle seat and mount it on any upright bicycle
you'd care to try it on and you'll find that out.
......
On the other hand--the crank-forward bikes from RANS have seats that are
kinda-sorta like those seats. And the crank-forward bikes are made so
that your legs stick out in /front/ of your pelvis, instead of
/underneath/ your pelvis--and so,,,,, the seats have no noses.

> Oh yes; after a few days of 'bent rental, white knuckles, struggling to
> maintain lane position, struggling to start at streetlights without
> wagging all over the road, struggling to free up a hand to check the
> time or scratch-- in short, struggling to do almost all the things that
> require no special attention even on my choppers and tallbikes-- I have
> intimately familiarized myself with many of bents' characteristic
> problems.
>
> Chalo
>

Well if you're just too uncoordinated there's not a lot I can argue
with. But I've seen first-hand that many people of only average physical
capabilities--who've /never/ rode a recumbent before--can get on a CLWB
or a LWB and be riding around pretty easily within a couple minutes.
It's only the very-reclined ones that give most people trouble.

[>-fini<-]
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> ...
> Unlike bicycle seats, motorcycle seats must be designed to fit
> specific machines....


"Dear Carl" is confusing upright bicycle SADDLES which are generally
interchangeable with bicycle SEATS that are found on recumbents and are
not generally interchangeable.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
* * Chas wrote:
>
> I briefly tried out a 'bent and found it difficult to keep balanced.


Let us emphasize the word "briefly" here.

Unless you were exceptionally athletically gifted as a child, you found
it difficult to balance an upright bicycle when you first learned to
ride one.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
DougC wrote:
> Chalo Colina wrote:
> > ...
> > Oh yes; after a few days of 'bent rental, white knuckles, struggling to
> > maintain lane position, struggling to start at streetlights without
> > wagging all over the road, struggling to free up a hand to check the
> > time or scratch-- in short, struggling to do almost all the things that
> > require no special attention even on my choppers and tallbikes-- I have
> > intimately familiarized myself with many of bents' characteristic
> > problems.
> >
> > Chalo
> > ...

> Well if you're just too uncoordinated there's not a lot I can argue
> with. But I've seen first-hand that many people of only average physical
> capabilities--who've /never/ rode a recumbent before--can get on a CLWB
> or a LWB and be riding around pretty easily within a couple minutes.
> It's only the very-reclined ones that give most people trouble.


I suspect that Chalo was making the common mistake of trying to ride a
recumbent like an upright, which ends up grossly over-controlling the
recumbent. It has been my experience that it is often highly
experienced upright riders that have the most problems with recumbents
since their habits are so ingrained.

Chalo's description sounds like the first several months of my riding
upright bicycles. It took me about 3 fairly short rides (about 1 hour
total) to get beyond the point that Chalo describes.

Anyone who can competently ride an upright bicycle can ride a recumbent
with the proper mindset. I ride recumbents with no problem, and I lack
the overall coordination to master such upright skills as "bunny
hopping", wheelies, track stands and riding no-handed for significant
distances on most uprights.

IT'S NOT THAT HARD FOLKS!

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> DougC wrote:
> > Chalo Colina wrote:
> > > ...
> > > Oh yes; after a few days of 'bent rental, white knuckles, struggling to
> > > maintain lane position, struggling to start at streetlights without
> > > wagging all over the road, struggling to free up a hand to check the
> > > time or scratch-- in short, struggling to do almost all the things that
> > > require no special attention even on my choppers and tallbikes-- I have
> > > intimately familiarized myself with many of bents' characteristic
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > Chalo
> > > ...

> > Well if you're just too uncoordinated there's not a lot I can argue
> > with. But I've seen first-hand that many people of only average physical
> > capabilities--who've /never/ rode a recumbent before--can get on a CLWB
> > or a LWB and be riding around pretty easily within a couple minutes.
> > It's only the very-reclined ones that give most people trouble.

>
> I suspect that Chalo was making the common mistake of trying to ride a
> recumbent like an upright, which ends up grossly over-controlling the
> recumbent. It has been my experience that it is often highly
> experienced upright riders that have the most problems with recumbents
> since their habits are so ingrained.
>
> Chalo's description sounds like the first several months of my riding
> upright bicycles. It took me about 3 fairly short rides (about 1 hour
> total) to get beyond the point that Chalo describes.
>
> Anyone who can competently ride an upright bicycle can ride a recumbent
> with the proper mindset. I ride recumbents with no problem, and I lack
> the overall coordination to master such upright skills as "bunny
> hopping", wheelies, track stands and riding no-handed for significant
> distances on most uprights.
>
> IT'S NOT THAT HARD FOLKS!
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Here, not there.


yep, I even worked on and then road with another guy a tandem 'bent'.
Not that hard but something I will never do again, if I can help
it..either work on one or ride one...life's too short to be that
embarassed.
 
V

Victor Kan

Guest
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> yep, I even worked on and then road with another guy a tandem 'bent'.
> Not that hard but something I will never do again, if I can help
> it..either work on one or ride one...life's too short to be that
> embarassed.


I can understand being embarassed to ride on one, whether it's because
you have trouble with the handling, or the way you think you look on one.

But you're embarassed to work on one??? What's that about? Is it like
a computer technician who prefers "Wintel" computers being embarassed to
work on a Mac even though the hard drive, memory, and these days even
CPU, are the same?

Tom Sherman wrote:
> It has been my experience that it is often highly
> experienced upright riders that have the most problems with recumbents
> since their habits are so ingrained.


That's been exactly my experience too when demo'ing 'bents to folks.
Some folks who haven't ridden bikes in years were able to hop onto my
old Linear Mach III CLWB bike with underseat steering and ride around
just fine. None of the hard core road bike riders had as much success
on that bike. I suspect that if they tried my "high racer", they'd have
more success since its handling is more DF-like.

--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
>
> yep, I even worked on and then road with another guy a tandem 'bent'.
> Not that hard but something I will never do again, if I can help
> it..either work on one or ride one...life's too short to be that
> embarassed.


Hey Peter,

Just put on a fake beard, stuff some foam under your shirt [1] to
create a fake "aerobelly", and wear a helmet with a dark visor [2] and
no one will recognize you. ;)

Would you sell wheels to a person if you knew the wheels would end up
on a recumbent bicycle?

[1] No one rides a bent wearing an upright jersey.
[2] Propeller on top optional.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > yep, I even worked on and then road with another guy a tandem 'bent'.
> > Not that hard but something I will never do again, if I can help
> > it..either work on one or ride one...life's too short to be that
> > embarassed.

>
> Hey Peter,
>
> Just put on a fake beard, stuff some foam under your shirt [1] to
> create a fake "aerobelly", and wear a helmet with a dark visor [2] and
> no one will recognize you. ;)
>
> Would you sell wheels to a person if you knew the wheels would end up
> on a recumbent bicycle?


I would gladly build them a set of wheels, even for you....you gotta
ride the thing, I don't.
>
> [1] No one rides a bent wearing an upright jersey.
> [2] Propeller on top optional.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Victor Kan wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> > yep, I even worked on and then road with another guy a tandem 'bent'.
> > Not that hard but something I will never do again, if I can help
> > it..either work on one or ride one...life's too short to be that
> > embarassed.

>
> I can understand being embarassed to ride on one, whether it's because
> you have trouble with the handling, or the way you think you look on one.
>
> But you're embarassed to work on one??? What's that about? Is it like
> a computer technician who prefers "Wintel" computers being embarassed to
> work on a Mac even though the hard drive, memory, and these days even
> CPU, are the same?


People might get the wrong idea about me....
>
> Tom Sherman wrote:
> > It has been my experience that it is often highly
> > experienced upright riders that have the most problems with recumbents
> > since their habits are so ingrained.

>
> That's been exactly my experience too when demo'ing 'bents to folks.
> Some folks who haven't ridden bikes in years were able to hop onto my
> old Linear Mach III CLWB bike with underseat steering and ride around
> just fine. None of the hard core road bike riders had as much success
> on that bike. I suspect that if they tried my "high racer", they'd have
> more success since its handling is more DF-like.
>
> --
> I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
> legitimate replies.
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> Victor Kan wrote:
> > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > > yep, I even worked on and then road with another guy a tandem 'bent'.
> > > Not that hard but something I will never do again, if I can help
> > > it..either work on one or ride one...life's too short to be that
> > > embarassed.

> >
> > I can understand being embarassed to ride on one, whether it's because
> > you have trouble with the handling, or the way you think you look on one.
> >
> > But you're embarassed to work on one??? What's that about? Is it like
> > a computer technician who prefers "Wintel" computers being embarassed to
> > work on a Mac even though the hard drive, memory, and these days even
> > CPU, are the same?

>
> People might get the wrong idea about me....


Look how far someone has fallen since winning the TdF [1] three (3)
times:
<http://www.penningerrecumbents.com/images/greg_lemond_on_bent.jpg> and
<http://www.wizwheelz.com/images/favorite_photos/LeMond.jpg>. ;)

[1] "Tour Day Frantz" for Bob Roll fans.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > >
> > > yep, I even worked on and then road with another guy a tandem 'bent'.
> > > Not that hard but something I will never do again, if I can help
> > > it..either work on one or ride one...life's too short to be that
> > > embarassed.

> >
> > Hey Peter,
> >
> > Just put on a fake beard, stuff some foam under your shirt [1] to
> > create a fake "aerobelly", and wear a helmet with a dark visor [2] and
> > no one will recognize you. ;)
> >
> > Would you sell wheels to a person if you knew the wheels would end up
> > on a recumbent bicycle?

>
> I would gladly build them a set of wheels, even for you....you gotta
> ride the thing, I don't.


Peter,

Would you consider riding a recumbent bicycle to fall under "outrages
upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading
treatment" or "cruel and unusual punishment"?

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> > > Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> > > >
> > > > yep, I even worked on and then road with another guy a tandem 'bent'.
> > > > Not that hard but something I will never do again, if I can help
> > > > it..either work on one or ride one...life's too short to be that
> > > > embarassed.
> > >
> > > Hey Peter,
> > >
> > > Just put on a fake beard, stuff some foam under your shirt [1] to
> > > create a fake "aerobelly", and wear a helmet with a dark visor [2] and
> > > no one will recognize you. ;)
> > >
> > > Would you sell wheels to a person if you knew the wheels would end up
> > > on a recumbent bicycle?

> >
> > I would gladly build them a set of wheels, even for you....you gotta
> > ride the thing, I don't.

>
> Peter,
>
> Would you consider riding a recumbent bicycle to fall under "outrages
> upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading
> treatment" or "cruel and unusual punishment"?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Here, not there.


Don't want to ride one anymore than I want to play golf...wrestling
with you is approaching cruel and unusual..well unusal at least.

After searching other of the many NG you frequent, I am dismayed that
politically, you and I agree on most things...where did you go wrong?
On the 'bent and Japanese things are superior, European things are
inferior..I guess not considering the finer things made these days,
motorcycles, autos, watches, wine, clothes, art, cameras.....ya know....
 

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