nexus hubs - one for sheldon

[Panda]

having looked on sheldons site i see that he doesnt recommend stripping nexus hubs. my question is
does this also apply to the cones etc for the rear wheel? can they be safely stripped?

thanks

panda

 

[A Muzi]

"panda" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> having looked on sheldons site i see that he doesnt recommend stripping nexus hubs. my question is
> does this also apply to the cones etc for the rear wheel? can they be safely stripped?

Could you explain what you're trying to do? I doubt you are trying to purposefully "damage the
threads of the axle" when you say "strip". If you mean "salvage parts from a damaged unit for use
later" when you say "strip", why not? Perhaps you mean "modify by removing extraneous material" when
you say "strip" but except for the braking assembly I don't think there's any dead weight to remove
in a Nexus.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

[W K]

"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "panda" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > having looked on sheldons site i see that he doesnt recommend stripping nexus hubs. my question
> > is does this also apply to the cones etc for the rear wheel? can they be safely stripped?
>
>
> Could you explain what you're trying to do? I doubt you are trying to purposefully "damage the
> threads of the axle"
when
> you say "strip". If you mean "salvage parts from a damaged unit for use later" when you
say
> "strip", why not? Perhaps you mean "modify by removing extraneous material" when you say "strip"
> but except for the braking assembly I don't think there's any dead weight to remove in a Nexus.

I'd have thought "strip" was a fairly standard term for taking something apart, to clean it and put
it back together again. I've certainly heard it applied to engines etc.

But then, I've been to yorkshire.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

A shy arboreal marsupial queried:

> having looked on sheldons site i see that he doesnt recommend stripping nexus hubs. my question is
> does this also apply to the cones etc for the rear wheel? can they be safely stripped?

Subsequent messages in this thread suggest that his use of "stripped" translates to "repacked" in
U.S. English.

If you just want to remove the left cone, clean and lube its bearings, no harm in that.

The main innards of the Nexi are a series of modules, and they can be also degreased and relubed,
but it is fairly critical to use the proper grease. Almost all instances of problems with these hubs
that have come to my attention have occurred _after_ "preventive maintenance" had been attempted,
including greasing with non-approved grease.

The right cone is not removeable without a very special tool, and it is my understanding that it is
a highly critical adjustment. It is strongly recommended not to mess with it.

Sheldon "If It Ain't Broke" Brown +---------------------------------------------------+
| Two countries, divided by a common language. | -- George Bernard Shaw |
+---------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[A Muzi]

> > "panda" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > having looked on sheldons site i see that he doesnt recommend
stripping
> > > nexus hubs. my question is does this also apply to the cones etc for
the
> > > rear wheel? can they be safely stripped?

> "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Could you explain what you're trying to do? I doubt you are trying to purposefully "damage the
> > threads of the axle"
> when
> > you say "strip". If you mean "salvage parts from a damaged unit for use later" when you
> say
> > "strip", why not? Perhaps you mean "modify by removing extraneous material" when you say "strip"
> > but except for the braking assembly I don't think there's any
dead
> > weight to remove in a Nexus.

"W K" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I'd have thought "strip" was a fairly standard term for taking something apart, to clean it and
> put it back together again. I've certainly heard it applied to engines etc. But then, I've been to
> yorkshire.

There isn't much to be done in there so unless there's an indication of salt-water penetration I
would leave it alone.

However, I have succesfully cleaned and relubricated a few Nexii which made horrible noises and
exuded brown water when turned on their sides. This is not for the faint of heart as there's a lot
of stuff in there! After cleaning, I used regular white lithium grease liberally at the bearing
areas on both ends (lubriplate 130AA) and a healthy amount of hypoid gear lube all across the gear
train which I had smeared with grease first. My thoughts were that the oil might run off the working
bits and grease alone might be pushed out of the way. I was trying to duplicate the effect of the
gooey black lubricant Shimano and Sachs use, without knowing what that is. The hubs I have serviced
that way have given good service in the year-plus since I did that ( I see them for tire repair).

I really didn't understand you at first, here we would say "overhaul", "rebuild" or "clean and
lubricate".

I've not been to Yorkshire but I used to ride with someone from there!
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

[x]

RE/
>I'd have thought "strip" was a fairly standard term for taking something apart, to clean it and put
>it back together again. I've certainly heard it applied to engines etc.
>
>But then, I've been to yorkshire.

"England and the USA: two great cultures divided by a common language."

-----------------------
PeteCresswell

 

[Sam Bixby]

wk was correct in my meaning (an yes i am in yorkshire)

my enquire was because i was considering doing the cones on the bike, nothing drastic.

thanks

panda

"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > > "panda" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > having looked on sheldons site i see that he doesnt recommend
> stripping
> > > > nexus hubs. my question is does this also apply to the cones etc for
> the
> > > > rear wheel? can they be safely stripped?
>
> > "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > > Could you explain what you're trying to do? I doubt you are trying to purposefully "damage the
> > > threads of the
axle"
> > when
> > > you say "strip". If you mean "salvage parts from a damaged unit for use later" when
you
> > say
> > > "strip", why not? Perhaps you mean "modify by removing extraneous material" when you
say
> > > "strip" but except for the braking assembly I don't think there's any
> dead
> > > weight to remove in a Nexus.
>
>
> "W K" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > I'd have thought "strip" was a fairly standard term for taking something apart, to clean it and
> > put it back together again. I've certainly heard it applied to engines etc. But then, I've been
> > to yorkshire.
>
>
> There isn't much to be done in there so unless there's an indication of salt-water penetration I
> would leave it alone.
>
> However, I have succesfully cleaned and relubricated a few Nexii which
made
> horrible noises and exuded brown water when turned on their sides. This
is
> not for the faint of heart as there's a lot of stuff in there! After cleaning, I used regular
> white lithium grease liberally at the bearing
areas
> on both ends (lubriplate 130AA) and a healthy amount of hypoid gear lube all across the gear train
> which I had smeared with grease first. My thoughts were that the oil might run off the working
> bits and grease
alone
> might be pushed out of the way. I was trying to duplicate the effect of
the
> gooey black lubricant Shimano and Sachs use, without knowing what that is. The hubs I have
> serviced that way have given good service in the year-plus since I did that ( I see them for tire
> repair).
>
> I really didn't understand you at first, here we would say "overhaul", "rebuild" or "clean and
> lubricate".
>
> I've not been to Yorkshire but I used to ride with someone from there!
> --
> Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

[Sam Bixby]

cheers sheldon,

thats exactly the information i was after

u r a star

panda

"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> A shy arboreal marsupial queried:
>
> > having looked on sheldons site i see that he doesnt recommend stripping nexus hubs. my question
> > is does this also apply to the cones etc for the rear wheel? can they be safely stripped?
>
> Subsequent messages in this thread suggest that his use of "stripped" translates to "repacked" in
> U.S. English.
>
> If you just want to remove the left cone, clean and lube its bearings, no harm in that.
>
> The main innards of the Nexi are a series of modules, and they can be also degreased and relubed,
> but it is fairly critical to use the proper grease. Almost all instances of problems with these
> hubs that have come to my attention have occurred _after_ "preventive maintenance" had been
> attempted, including greasing with non-approved grease.
>
> The right cone is not removeable without a very special tool, and it is my understanding that it
> is a highly critical adjustment. It is strongly recommended not to mess with it.
>
> Sheldon "If It Ain't Broke" Brown +---------------------------------------------------+
> | Two countries, divided by a common language. | -- George Bernard Shaw |
> +---------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[David Damerell]

(Pete Cresswell) <[email protected]> wrote:
>"England and the USA: two great cultures divided by a common language."

What language do you suspect they speak in the rest of the UK?
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <kxn*[email protected]>, David Damerell
<[email protected]> wrote:

> (Pete Cresswell) <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"England and the USA: two great cultures divided by a common language."
>
> What language do you suspect they speak in the rest of the UK?

Oh, I suspect he just thinks Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland aren't great cultures.

In a lot of trouble now,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Russ]

Sheldon, I've just bought a new bike (Van D SuperFly) w/ the Nexus 7 speed and I like it a lot but I
have some questions. I've read just about everything on your excellent site but sure would
appreciate your thoughts on a few more questions:
1. I've read enough posts and websites to gather that the Nexus 7 does have a bit of internal
friction associated with its dual planetary gears. (I got an excellent article on this subject
from the Technical Journal of the IHPVA (at URL http://www.ihpva.org/pubs/HP52.pdf. Covers
derailleurs and numerous internally-shifted hubs.) Have you found that there is any sort of
break-in period associated with the Nexus 7 which helps loosen it up a bit? This particular
site's study used primarily brand new equipment.
2. Just wondering if you had considered changing the lube in a Nexus 7 to see if there was any
significant difference in friction, say, a combination of Mobil 1 gear lube with just enough
Mobil 1 grease to thicken it to semi-liquidity. (I'm a big believer in the superior lubrication
of Mobil 1 and no, I don't work for Mobil!) Maybe a smidgen of graphite too. I am not inclined to
try this at home but you're obviously quite the experimenter and I thought something a bit
lighter with equal or better lube qualities would help the Nexus.
3. Is the difference in friction between an internal hub and a derailleur enough to really amount to
anything or do you think it's much ado about nothing?

-Russ-

Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> The main innards of the Nexi are a series of modules, and they can be also degreased and relubed,
> but it is fairly critical to use the proper grease. Almost all instances of problems with these
> hubs that have come to my attention have occurred _after_ "preventive maintenance" had been
> attempted, including greasing with non-approved grease.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Russ wrote:
> Sheldon, I've just bought a new bike (Van D SuperFly) w/ the Nexus 7 speed and I like it a lot but
> I have some questions. I've read just about everything on your excellent site but sure would
> appreciate your thoughts on a few more questions:
> 1. I've read enough posts and websites to gather that the Nexus 7 does have a bit of internal
> friction associated with its dual planetary gears. (I got an excellent article on this subject
> from the Technical Journal of the IHPVA (at URL http://www.ihpva.org/pubs/HP52.pdf. Covers
> derailleurs and numerous internally-shifted hubs.) Have you found that there is any sort of
> break-in period associated with the Nexus 7 which helps loosen it up a bit?

Not that I've noticed. My Nexus replaced a Sturmey-Archer FM 4 speed, and my perception was that the
Nexus was more efficient.

> 2. Just wondering if you had considered changing the lube in a Nexus 7 to see if there was any
> significant difference in friction, say, a combination of Mobil 1 gear lube with just enough
> Mobil 1 grease to thicken it to semi-liquidity.

The Nexus grease is not very thick, and feels very slippery indeed. I doubt that any different
grease could significantly improve the efficiency. Shimano has some _very_ smart people designing
their lubricants.

> 3. Is the difference in friction between an internal hub and a derailleur enough to really amount
> to anything or do you think it's much ado about nothing?

It is somewhat noticeable. I'd say the difference between a Nexus and a derailer system is about the
same as between a derailer system and a fixed gear.

How important this is depends on your priorities.

Sheldon "Mostly Rides Fixed Gear" Brown +--------------------------------------------+
| Never worry about theory as long as the | machinery does what it's supposed to do. | --Robert A.
| Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[x]

RE/
>2. Just wondering if you had considered changing the lube in a Nexus 7 to see if there was any
> significant difference in friction, say, a combination of Mobil 1 gear lube with just enough
> Mobil 1 grease to thicken it to semi-liquidity.

I'd read Nexus' manual carefully before changing lubes.

My Rohloff's manual says that some of the parts inside are made of composites that will be damaged
by lubes other than Rohloff's.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

 

[B. Sanders]

"Russ" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Sheldon, I've just bought a new bike (Van D SuperFly) w/ the Nexus 7 speed and I like it a lot

I have the same bike. It's the slickest city/hybrid/touring bike I've seen. I get *lots* of
attention riding the Super Fly. People want to know where they can buy one.

If your Super Fly has the Cyclone front disc brake, I suggest that you remove the pad angle
adjustment screw (concentric to larger caliper screws), and treat it with LocTite. My adjuster screw
popped out on an early ride, which sidelined the Super Fly until Van Dessel sent a replacement front
brake (Avid disc - nice upgrade, and sent very quickly). Van Dessel said they were planning to
switch to Deore mechanical discs soon, so maybe the problem is solved by now. They were very
helpful, BTW, and obviously care about their customers.

> 1. I've read enough posts and websites to gather that the Nexus 7 does have a bit of internal
> friction associated with its dual planetary gears. (I got an excellent article on this subject
> from the Technical Journal of the IHPVA (at URL http://www.ihpva.org/pubs/HP52.pdf.

This article's results are fairly similar to other tests I've seen for the Nexus Inter 7 hub. Note
that in 5th gear, efficiency drops down as low as
83.6%. Before I saw these test results, I could already tell that 3rd, 4th and 5th gear are the
least efficient. Guess which gears I use the most? The inefficiencies are definitely noticeable.

> Have you found that there is any sort of break-in period associated with the Nexus 7 which helps
> loosen it up a bit?

Several different people have told me that there is a break-in period. How much of a difference it
will make is not known.

> 3. Is the difference in friction between an internal hub and a derailleur enough to really amount
> to anything or do you think it's much ado about nothing?

The Nexus 7 hub constantly feels like I'm pedalling up a slight grade, except in the highest and
lowest gears. I've also had trouble keeping the gears from shifting accidentally (sensitive
light-action Revo twist shifters). When the gear alignment indicators are lined up on the hub, I
have trouble with unwanted over-shifting. I've played around with the adjustment, and finally have
it where shifting seems OK. So, if this happens, it's not just you.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Russ]

Thanks, Sheldon, for your comments. Much appreciated! Looks like I'll be using the SuperFly for
commuting and errands around town where the slick shifting is most important; I'll save my old
Schwinn Varsity in case I ever decide to go for a reeeally long ride.

-Russ-

Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Russ wrote:
> > Sheldon, I've just bought a new bike (Van D SuperFly) w/ the Nexus 7 speed and I like it a lot
> > but I have some questions. I've read just about everything on your excellent site but sure would
> > appreciate your thoughts on a few more questions:
> > 1. I've read enough posts and websites to gather that the Nexus 7 does have a bit of internal
> > friction associated with its dual planetary gears. (I got an excellent article on this
> > subject from the Technical Journal of the IHPVA (at URL http://www.ihpva.org/pubs/HP52.pdf.
> > Covers derailleurs and numerous internally-shifted hubs.) Have you found that there is any
> > sort of break-in period associated with the Nexus 7 which helps loosen it up a bit?
>
> Not that I've noticed. My Nexus replaced a Sturmey-Archer FM 4 speed, and my perception was that
> the Nexus was more efficient.
>
> > 2. Just wondering if you had considered changing the lube in a Nexus 7 to see if there was any
> > significant difference in friction, say, a combination of Mobil 1 gear lube with just enough
> > Mobil 1 grease to thicken it to semi-liquidity.
>
> The Nexus grease is not very thick, and feels very slippery indeed. I doubt that any different
> grease could significantly improve the efficiency. Shimano has some _very_ smart people designing
> their lubricants.
>
> > 3. Is the difference in friction between an internal hub and a derailleur enough to really
> > amount to anything or do you think it's much ado about nothing?
>
> It is somewhat noticeable. I'd say the difference between a Nexus and a derailer system is about
> the same as between a derailer system and a fixed gear.
>
> How important this is depends on your priorities.
>
> Sheldon "Mostly Rides Fixed Gear" Brown +--------------------------------------------+
> | Never worry about theory as long as the | machinery does what it's supposed to do. | --Robert
> | A. Heinlein |
> +--------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
> 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Russ]

Thanks, Pete - that's a very good point you raised about the lube. Guess I'll stick with the Shimano
stuff. Since I don't ride in winter or on the beach etc. what's in my hub will likely be good for a
while anyhow...

-Russ-

"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> RE/
> >2. Just wondering if you had considered changing the lube in a Nexus 7 to see if there was any
> > significant difference in friction, say, a combination of Mobil 1 gear lube with just enough
> > Mobil 1 grease to thicken it to semi-liquidity.
>
> I'd read Nexus' manual carefully before changing lubes.
>
> My Rohloff's manual says that some of the parts inside are made of composites that will be damaged
> by lubes other than Rohloff's.
> -----------------------
> PeteCresswell

 

[x]

RE/
>The Nexus 7 hub constantly feels like I'm pedalling up a slight grade, except in the highest and
>lowest gears. I've also had trouble keeping the gears from shifting accidentally (sensitive
>light-action Revo twist shifters). When the gear alignment indicators are lined up on the hub, I
>have trouble with unwanted over-shifting.

Thanks for those observations. I was thinking about the Nexus for my utility bike but
you've cured me.

Dunno what the cost diff is (probably big bucks...) but my year-or-so on Rohloffs hasn't revealed
any problems with shifting and the effort level is pretty close to a der setup. I *think* I
notice increased effort in 7th gear, but am prepared to believe that it's just the noise working
on my mind.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

 

[Russ]

Yes, my bike has the Cyclone front disk. I doubt I'll find a way to get mine upgraded to an Avid
though! It's the one thing my bike came without documementation for... do you know where there might
be any on the 'net? Thanks for the tip about the adjuster - I'll be sure to loctite mine. I have to
admit that it didn't thrill me to not find out the efficiency ratings of the Nexus Seven until after
buying the Super Fly but it's clear to me from the study I cited to Sheldon, that by avoiding 5th
gear it's possible to miss the lion's share of the low efficiency ratings for that hub. Consider
that there are derailers that run efficiency down to the low 90's. OTOH I really like the idea that
I'm not going to end up in a left turn lane in front of a bunch of cars, unable to shift out of 13th
gear or with a case of chain-suck at an inopportune moment. I have a couple of questions if you'd be
so kind: I'm new back to biking after a long time away from it and bought the SuperFly after giving
myself a 'crash course' in what was available. You said your SF draws a lot of attention; what is
there about it that does that? I guess to my untrained eyes, a bike is still a bike in most
respects. (I read some very good reviews on the SF before buying it, and was impressed by their
focused model range.) And what's your feeling about the Shimano Nexus 7 - is the extra drag
something that doesn't bug you much, or do you think it will prove to be an annoyance? I know
Sheldon said he's been using one of these for a while and seems enthusiastic about it. What's your
feeling about it? I'd sure appreciate any comments you (or anyone) would offer. Thanks!

-Russ-


"B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Russ" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Sheldon, I've just bought a new bike (Van D SuperFly) w/ the Nexus 7 speed and I like it a lot
>
> I have the same bike. It's the slickest city/hybrid/touring bike I've seen. I get *lots* of
> attention riding the Super Fly. People want to know where they can buy one.
>
> If your Super Fly has the Cyclone front disc brake, I suggest that you remove the pad angle
> adjustment screw (concentric to larger caliper screws), and treat it with LocTite. My adjuster
> screw popped out on an early ride, which sidelined the Super Fly until Van Dessel sent a
> replacement front brake (Avid disc - nice upgrade, and sent very quickly). Van Dessel said they
> were planning to switch to Deore mechanical discs soon, so maybe the problem is solved by now.
> They were very helpful, BTW, and obviously care about their customers.
>
> > 1. I've read enough posts and websites to gather that the Nexus 7 does have a bit of internal
> > friction associated with its dual planetary gears. (I got an excellent article on this
> > subject from the Technical Journal of the IHPVA (at URL http://www.ihpva.org/pubs/HP52.pdf.
>
> This article's results are fairly similar to other tests I've seen for the Nexus Inter 7 hub. Note
> that in 5th gear, efficiency drops down as low as
> 83.6%. Before I saw these test results, I could already tell that 3rd, 4th and 5th gear are the
> least efficient. Guess which gears I use the most? The inefficiencies are definitely
> noticeable.
>
> > Have you found that there is any sort of break-in period associated with the Nexus 7 which helps
> > loosen it up a bit?
>
> Several different people have told me that there is a break-in period. How much of a difference it
> will make is not known.
>
> > 3. Is the difference in friction between an internal hub and a derailleur enough to really
> > amount to anything or do you think it's much ado about nothing?
>
> The Nexus 7 hub constantly feels like I'm pedalling up a slight grade, except in the highest and
> lowest gears. I've also had trouble keeping the gears from shifting accidentally (sensitive
> light-action Revo twist shifters). When the gear alignment indicators are lined up on the hub, I
> have trouble with unwanted over-shifting. I've played around with the adjustment, and finally have
> it where shifting seems OK. So, if this happens, it's not just you.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Barry

 

[Russ]

If I can put in my .02 as well: with your Rohloff, per the study I found (see the URL in my first
message), 7th gear is about the least efficient, at least tied with 14th (about 88.5% efficient,
still not very bad). 5th, 10th, 12th and 13th are all below 90%. Overall, the Shimano 27 derailler
averages about 93%. Given that it's a fairly direct chain drive, I think the numbers for the Rohloff
are impressive. Re the Shimano Nexus 7, (using the same report) if you toss out 5th gear, it's
numbers aren't all that much lower than the Rohloff. 5th is the stinker. As far as Pete's experience
with shifting problems, I'm very early on in my ownership of my Nexus 7 equipped SuperFly but having
re-adjusted the shifter cable after the first few days, it shifts like a dream up and down, and
doesn't miss a shift.

Had I the money for a Rohloff I'd certainly prefer it, but I expect I'll be happy with the Shimano.

"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> RE/
> >The Nexus 7 hub constantly feels like I'm pedalling up a slight grade, except in the highest and
> >lowest gears. I've also had trouble keeping the gears from shifting accidentally (sensitive
> >light-action Revo twist shifters). When the gear alignment indicators are lined up on the hub, I
> >have trouble with unwanted over-shifting.
>
> Thanks for those observations. I was thinking about the Nexus for my utility bike but you've
> cured me.
>
> Dunno what the cost diff is (probably big bucks...) but my year-or-so on Rohloffs hasn't revealed
> any problems with shifting and the effort level is pretty close to a der setup. I *think* I
> notice increased effort in 7th gear, but am prepared to believe that it's just the noise working
> on my mind.
> -----------------------
> PeteCresswell

 

[x]

RE/
>but I expect I'll be happy with the Shimano.

Any idea what the Shimano costs?
-----------------------
PeteCresswell