No hands riding

[Per Elmsäter]

So how do the pros in the Peloton do it? Put their jackets on and off while
riding no hands at both slow and high speeds. Are they just that much better
riders than me or are their bikes set up different.

I have a Trek 5200 and I noticed how much harder it is to ride no hands than
it was when I was a kid. The handlebars are so much easier to turn with
these new headsets than the old bikes I had. Of course there are differences
in trail and rake and all of those things. First off I thought it was only
that. A racier more responsive bike and the price I had to pay was that it
was harder to ride no hands. But then I decided to try to tighten my
AHeadset just a little bit tighter and all of a sudden I can ride no hands
at very low speeds without wobbling all over the place. So what gives. How
hard can I tighten it?
At first I had it as loose as possible. Ie the wheel would fall over *fast*
if I lift the bike and tilt it slightly sideways. Of course it was tight
enough so there was no internal movement.
Now I've got it tightened maybe another quarter or two of a turn and the
wheel will fall over *slowly* if I lift the bike and tilt it slightly
sideways.
This last setting really makes it so much easier and safer to ride no hands.
Am I imagining things or could it be like that. Would really appreciate all
tips and input on this matter


--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[david]

> So how do the pros in the Peloton do it? Put their jackets on and off
> while
> riding no hands at both slow and high speeds. Are they just that much
> better
> riders than me or are their bikes set up different.
>
> I have a Trek 5200 and I noticed how much harder it is to ride no hands
> than
> it was when I was a kid. The handlebars are so much easier to turn with
> these new headsets than the old bikes I had. Of course there are
> differences
> in trail and rake and all of those things. First off I thought it was only
> that. A racier more responsive bike and the price I had to pay was that it
> was harder to ride no hands. But then I decided to try to tighten my
> AHeadset just a little bit tighter and all of a sudden I can ride no hands
> at very low speeds without wobbling all over the place. So what gives. How
> hard can I tighten it?
> At first I had it as loose as possible. Ie the wheel would fall over
> *fast*
> if I lift the bike and tilt it slightly sideways. Of course it was tight
> enough so there was no internal movement.
> Now I've got it tightened maybe another quarter or two of a turn and the
> wheel will fall over *slowly* if I lift the bike and tilt it slightly
> sideways.
> This last setting really makes it so much easier and safer to ride no
> hands.
> Am I imagining things or could it be like that. Would really appreciate
> all
> tips and input on this matter

I'm not an expert on this, but it sounds to me that you overtightened the
headset, and by doing so caused binding. All of my race style bikes are
quite twitchy, and difficult to ride no handed at first. It takes practice,
and after a while, it is no problem whatsoever. Both a threaded and
threadless bike behave the same way (different brands) trek 5200 versus
bianchi ev2.

David

 

[Francesco Devittori]

Per Elmsäter wrote:
> So how do the pros in the Peloton do it? Put their jackets on and off while
> riding no hands at both slow and high speeds. Are they just that much better
> riders than me or are their bikes set up different.
>
> I have a Trek 5200 and I noticed how much harder it is to ride no hands than
> it was when I was a kid. The handlebars are so much easier to turn with
> these new headsets than the old bikes I had. Of course there are differences
> in trail and rake and all of those things. First off I thought it was only
> that. A racier more responsive bike and the price I had to pay was that it
> was harder to ride no hands. But then I decided to try to tighten my
> AHeadset just a little bit tighter and all of a sudden I can ride no hands
> at very low speeds without wobbling all over the place. So what gives. How
> hard can I tighten it?
> At first I had it as loose as possible. Ie the wheel would fall over *fast*
> if I lift the bike and tilt it slightly sideways. Of course it was tight
> enough so there was no internal movement.
> Now I've got it tightened maybe another quarter or two of a turn and the
> wheel will fall over *slowly* if I lift the bike and tilt it slightly
> sideways.
> This last setting really makes it so much easier and safer to ride no hands.
> Am I imagining things or could it be like that. Would really appreciate all
> tips and input on this matter
>
>

Just a thing I noticed: I had an old headset which was indexed and it
was very difficult to ride no hands. When I replaced it, it became a lot
easier (without overtightening it).
What is still difficult to me is putting on/off the jacket while going
fast, the wind makes it fly around...

Francesco

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Just a thing I noticed: I had an old headset which was indexed and it
> was very difficult to ride no hands. When I replaced it, it became a lot
> easier (without overtightening it).
> What is still difficult to me is putting on/off the jacket while going
> fast, the wind makes it fly around...
>
> Francesco

Your experience isn't unusual. The original poster says that it's eaiser to
ride no-handed when his headset is so tight it hardly turns; normally that
would make it more difficult to ride no-handed, since you have to
overcompensate to get the wheel to change directions (so the body english
required to keep it relatively straight has to be more exagerrated).

Damping is another matter; if you do something that slows down the response,
there are situations where that might make it more stable no-handed. But a
binding headset isn't really damping, it's binding.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

 

[Per Elmsäter]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Just a thing I noticed: I had an old headset which was indexed and it
>> was very difficult to ride no hands. When I replaced it, it became a
>> lot easier (without overtightening it).
>> What is still difficult to me is putting on/off the jacket while
>> going fast, the wind makes it fly around...
>>
>> Francesco
>
> Your experience isn't unusual. The original poster says that it's
> eaiser to ride no-handed when his headset is so tight it hardly
> turns; normally that would make it more difficult to ride no-handed,
> since you have to overcompensate to get the wheel to change
> directions (so the body english required to keep it relatively
> straight has to be more exagerrated).
>
> Damping is another matter; if you do something that slows down the
> response, there are situations where that might make it more stable
> no-handed. But a binding headset isn't really damping, it's binding.
>

This is getting interesting. I haven't tightened my headset so tight that it
hardly turns. So I don't think it's a binding headset I'm talking about.
Damping sounds a lot more like it. I only turned the bolt just a little bit
more from the no play minimum, where I usually stop. So I'd define it as
being dampened more than binding. Would this be too tight? What is too
tight?

You also say to Francesco that his experience isn't unusual. I couldn't
follow you there. Maybe because I don't know what an indexed headset is.

How would you recommend me to tighten my headset and do you think it has
anything to do with riding no handed? Or is this just something in my head.
The reason I'm suspecting my head is because I've been riding rollers all
winter and maybe that was what made it so easy to ride no hands all of a
sudden. However I'd still like to figure out how the headset is involved in
this.


--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:02:18 -0400, david wrote:

>> So how do the pros in the Peloton do it? Put their jackets on and off
>> while
>> riding no hands at both slow and high speeds. Are they just that much
>> better
>> riders than me or are their bikes set up different.

Well, they do ride 6 hours a day on average. Probably develops bike
handling skills a bit. But it is not the racing bike itself that causes
trouble riding no-hands.

> I'm not an expert on this, but it sounds to me that you overtightened
> the headset, and by doing so caused binding.

I'd agree.

All of my race style bikes
> are quite twitchy, and difficult to ride no handed at first. It takes
> practice, and after a while, it is no problem whatsoever.

I couldn't ride my first road bike at all no-hands, but the track bike has
always been very easy, which runs counter to the usual prejudice.
Problem with the road bike was an out-of-alignment fork. Check that,
first, or other alignment issues.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

 

[Lou Holtman]

Francesco Devittori wrote:
> Per Elmsäter wrote:
>
>>So how do the pros in the Peloton do it? Put their jackets on and off while
>>riding no hands at both slow and high speeds. Are they just that much better
>>riders than me or are their bikes set up different.
>>
>>I have a Trek 5200 and I noticed how much harder it is to ride no hands than
>>it was when I was a kid. The handlebars are so much easier to turn with
>>these new headsets than the old bikes I had. Of course there are differences
>>in trail and rake and all of those things. First off I thought it was only
>>that. A racier more responsive bike and the price I had to pay was that it
>>was harder to ride no hands. But then I decided to try to tighten my
>>AHeadset just a little bit tighter and all of a sudden I can ride no hands
>>at very low speeds without wobbling all over the place. So what gives. How
>>hard can I tighten it?
>>At first I had it as loose as possible. Ie the wheel would fall over *fast*
>>if I lift the bike and tilt it slightly sideways. Of course it was tight
>>enough so there was no internal movement.
>>Now I've got it tightened maybe another quarter or two of a turn and the
>>wheel will fall over *slowly* if I lift the bike and tilt it slightly
>>sideways.
>>This last setting really makes it so much easier and safer to ride no hands.
>>Am I imagining things or could it be like that. Would really appreciate all
>>tips and input on this matter
>>
>>
>
>
> Just a thing I noticed: I had an old headset which was indexed and it
> was very difficult to ride no hands. When I replaced it, it became a lot
> easier (without overtightening it).
> What is still difficult to me is putting on/off the jacket while going
> fast, the wind makes it fly around...
>
> Francesco


I recall the image when Pantani was trying putting on his jacket in the
(steep) beginning of the descent of the Galibier when he was in the
lead. He didn't manage and had to stop. So...

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

 

[Werehatrack]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:53:31 +0200, Francesco Devittori
<frenkatfrenkdtcm> wrote:

>What is still difficult to me is putting on/off the jacket while going
>fast, the wind makes it fly around...

Before someone else says it, I'll toss in the obligatory observation
that Fabrizio Mazzoleni has his attire specially fitted to be not only
stylish, but easily removable under all conditions...



--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:38:36 GMT, "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Maybe ... I don't know what an indexed headset is.

It's a headset in which strain or wear factors have produced a pattern
of dots or grooves in the cup(s) and/or cone(s) which cause the
bearing(s) to want to resist moving from certain positions; it's
characterised by a rhythmic bind/release sensation as the bars are
waggled through a sufficiently large arc.

>How would you recommend me to tighten my headset and do you think it has
>anything to do with riding no handed? Or is this just something in my head.
>The reason I'm suspecting my head is because I've been riding rollers all
>winter and maybe that was what made it so easy to ride no hands all of a
>sudden. However I'd still like to figure out how the headset is involved in
>this.

A loose headset will allow wandering in the steering. An overly tight
headset will keep the front wheel from naturally following the caster
effect that ordinarily allows no-hands riding to work. Between those
two maladjustments is the spot where there's no play and no
drag-producing pressure on the bearings. Adjusting to that spot is
largely a matter of experience.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Bill Sornson]

Werehatrack wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:53:31 +0200, Francesco Devittori
> <frenkatfrenkdtcm> wrote:
>
>> What is still difficult to me is putting on/off the jacket while
>> going fast, the wind makes it fly around...
>
> Before someone else says it, I'll toss in the obligatory observation
> that Fabrizio Mazzoleni has his attire specially fitted to be not only
> stylish, but easily removable under all conditions...

No mean trick when it's so tight as to present virtually no wind resistance.

Flapper Bill

 

[Dave]

I rode for many years without being able to ride my bike no-handed. No
matter how much you ride, I don't think riding no-handed comes
naturally, its a skill you have to explicitly practice.

A while back, I made a concerted effort to learn...I made a point of
riding at least a few blocks no-hands while cooling down after every
ride. It took a few months, but now I can ride no-hands at speed very
comfortably.

Same goes for learning to take a drink while descending or riding in a
pack, I had to practice for a while before I could do it smoothly, even
though I was a very experienced rider in other respects.

 

[[email protected]]

Werehatrack wrote:
>
> Before someone else says it, I'll toss in the obligatory observation
> that Fabrizio Mazzoleni has his attire specially fitted to be not
only
> stylish, but easily removable under all conditions...
>

yeah, right! And Charlie Brown won a baseball game last week.

dkl

 

[Pete Biggs]

Per Elmsäter wrote:
> How would you recommend me to tighten my headset and do you think it
> has anything to do with riding no handed? Or is this just something
> in my head. The reason I'm suspecting my head is because I've been
> riding rollers all winter and maybe that was what made it so easy to
> ride no hands all of a sudden. However I'd still like to figure out
> how the headset is involved in this.

The headset is a red herring. Yes it will affect steering if it is
tighter than normal, but bikes that are easy to ride no-hands are just as
easy with a loose headset. It's mostly down to frame & fork geometry, I
think.

~PB

 

[Pete Biggs]

Dave wrote:
> I rode for many years without being able to ride my bike no-handed.
> No matter how much you ride, I don't think riding no-handed comes
> naturally, its a skill you have to explicitly practice.

But less skill is needed on some bikes than others. With this same rider
(me), some bikes seem to almost balance by themselves with no hands on the
bars, whereas others require a great deal of brain and body activity.

~PB

 

[skuke]

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:38:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:

> Dave wrote:
>> I rode for many years without being able to ride my bike no-handed.
>> No matter how much you ride, I don't think riding no-handed comes
>> naturally, its a skill you have to explicitly practice.
>
> But less skill is needed on some bikes than others. With this same rider
> (me), some bikes seem to almost balance by themselves with no hands on the
> bars, whereas others require a great deal of brain and body activity.
>
> ~PB


Tire make a difference too. Probably less so with road tires, but I was
able to ride my mt. bike no hands. Replaced my tires with early Ritchie
Megabites(?) and could not ride without holding on with at least one hand.
The bike wandered all over the road (when on the road) and was impossible to
keep straight. When the Ritchie's wore out, I replaced them with something
else and could instantly ride no hands again!
--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email

 

[RonSonic]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:38:36 GMT, "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> Just a thing I noticed: I had an old headset which was indexed and it
>>> was very difficult to ride no hands. When I replaced it, it became a
>>> lot easier (without overtightening it).
>>> What is still difficult to me is putting on/off the jacket while
>>> going fast, the wind makes it fly around...
>>>
>>> Francesco
>>
>> Your experience isn't unusual. The original poster says that it's
>> eaiser to ride no-handed when his headset is so tight it hardly
>> turns; normally that would make it more difficult to ride no-handed,
>> since you have to overcompensate to get the wheel to change
>> directions (so the body english required to keep it relatively
>> straight has to be more exagerrated).
>>
>> Damping is another matter; if you do something that slows down the
>> response, there are situations where that might make it more stable
>> no-handed. But a binding headset isn't really damping, it's binding.
>>
>
>This is getting interesting. I haven't tightened my headset so tight that it
>hardly turns. So I don't think it's a binding headset I'm talking about.
>Damping sounds a lot more like it. I only turned the bolt just a little bit
>more from the no play minimum, where I usually stop. So I'd define it as
>being dampened more than binding. Would this be too tight? What is too
>tight?

Too tight is any tighter than necessary to remove any slack or slop.

Tightening the headset will NOT fix the problem. As a child you rode a bike with
very stable geometry that had big heavy steel wheels with lots of gyroscopic
force. The problem is that you just don't ride well enough on this bike to go no
hands.

>You also say to Francesco that his experience isn't unusual. I couldn't
>follow you there. Maybe because I don't know what an indexed headset is.

It's a common failure mode where it feels to be "notched" and the fork turns in
distinct steps as if it were "indexed" like your clicky shifters.

And yes, the harder it is for the headset to turn the harder it will be to ride
no-hands.

>How would you recommend me to tighten my headset and do you think it has
>anything to do with riding no handed? Or is this just something in my head.
>The reason I'm suspecting my head is because I've been riding rollers all
>winter and maybe that was what made it so easy to ride no hands all of a
>sudden. However I'd still like to figure out how the headset is involved in
>this.

I say leave the poor thing alone, and get smooth on the bike. Remember,
paradoxically enough faster is easier. The higher your speed the more stable a
bike is.

Ron

 

[Jim Smith]

Mark Vieselmeyer <[email protected]> writes:

> skuke <[email protected]> wrote:
> : On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:38:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
>
> :> Dave wrote:
> :>> I rode for many years without being able to ride my bike no-handed.
> :>> No matter how much you ride, I don't think riding no-handed comes
> :>> naturally, its a skill you have to explicitly practice.
> :>
> :> But less skill is needed on some bikes than others. With this same rider
> :> (me), some bikes seem to almost balance by themselves with no hands on the
> :> bars, whereas others require a great deal of brain and body activity.
>
> : Tire make a difference too. Probably less so with road tires, but I was
> : able to ride my mt. bike no hands. Replaced my tires with early Ritchie
> : Megabites(?) and could not ride without holding on with at least one hand.
> : The bike wandered all over the road (when on the road) and was impossible to
> : keep straight. When the Ritchie's wore out, I replaced them with something
> : else and could instantly ride no hands again!
>
> I've often wondered how the handle-bar setup affects things. Like, having a
> long reach, or heavy brifters, or an aerobar. Seems like there could be
> somewhat of a pendulum effect that makes it harder to make small adjustments.

Possibly, but a rolling bicycle is stable to begin with. If you give a
passing bicycle a shove to the side it will wobble a bit and then
continue on its way. It was this wonderfull property which allowed us
when kids to ghost-ride our friends motocross bikes off big jumps
while they were looking the other way. I think riding no-hands
largely involves staying out of the bikes way balance-wise.

 

[Mark Vieselmeyer]

skuke <[email protected]> wrote:
: On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:38:31 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:

:> Dave wrote:
:>> I rode for many years without being able to ride my bike no-handed.
:>> No matter how much you ride, I don't think riding no-handed comes
:>> naturally, its a skill you have to explicitly practice.
:>
:> But less skill is needed on some bikes than others. With this same rider
:> (me), some bikes seem to almost balance by themselves with no hands on the
:> bars, whereas others require a great deal of brain and body activity.

: Tire make a difference too. Probably less so with road tires, but I was
: able to ride my mt. bike no hands. Replaced my tires with early Ritchie
: Megabites(?) and could not ride without holding on with at least one hand.
: The bike wandered all over the road (when on the road) and was impossible to
: keep straight. When the Ritchie's wore out, I replaced them with something
: else and could instantly ride no hands again!

I've often wondered how the handle-bar setup affects things. Like, having a
long reach, or heavy brifters, or an aerobar. Seems like there could be
somewhat of a pendulum effect that makes it harder to make small adjustments.

- Mark

 

[Leo Lichtman]

"Pete Biggs" wrote: But less skill is needed on some bikes than others.
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The amount of *trail* is a big factor. This is what produces the castor
effect, by which the forward motion returns the steering to a straight line.
The more trail, the more stably the bike rolls. The penalty for this
rolling stability is less maneuverability, such as you would want for
technical trail riding.

 

[Jay K]

I could never ride "no hands." Took a racing clinic where this was one
skill we were going to learn--before the clinic I emailed instructor
that this was impossible, as I had repeatedly tried with no success
When I got to clinic instructor took a look at my bike and said the
reason I couldn't ride "no hands" was that my saddle was nose down, so
I was always moving forward. The "secret" was to keep your weight back
on the saddle." Apart from this, whenever I tried riding no hands I'd
get nervous and instinctively move up towards and over the handlebars.

In the past year my setup is fairly level, and for a few blocks on
every ride I sit back in the saddle, stay upright, and ride "no hands."
Still can't take jacket off but big "trick" this year was removing
glove liners. I now have a new bike which is more responsive, but
still no problem riding "no hands" as long as I continue to keep my
weight on the back of the saddle.

Good luck

j

..