No WMD in Iraq as the official search ends.

[limerickman]

Illogical to call them "liars" as they had never been to Iraq. They relied on multiple intel sources. These intelligence sources had stated there were unaccounted prohibited materials. This included UNSCOM. But that logic falls on weak minds...

Logic dictates that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Back when I was on active duty, and that would be before Ryan Velo was nothing more than a ruptured prophylactic, the 1SGT would have the MP's do rounds with the drug sniffing dogs. Some dopers in one room tried to stall the MP's access. Sure enough, the dogs went positive on one wall locker. Next month, that guy came up positive on a "random" UA. Poor Pete went from Full Bird Private to E-0. Was it fair that he was selected for a random UA one day before he came off leave?

Back when you were on duty - for who exactly ?
Israel or the USA ?

Before getting in a discussion about logic, the fact remains that Bush & Co lied.
Colon Powell presented doctored evidence to the UN 6th february 2003.

 

[limerickman]

It was not meant to be tasteless but educational. Let him dust off a dictionary to research that big word.

Drugs in the military are not a recent problem. Opium had long history in military units but it was dealt with by the leadership and not laws. Alcohol too had a long standing presence in combat with the 10 liter wine tins used in the French service during WWI to the rum ration on naval vessels. No, long before WWII was alcohol a part of combat. The drug issue of current US military arose from lackluster leadership in the 1960's. The tools for detection of use came on line in the late 1970's and early 1980's and eventually, the users were reduced to a tiny fraction of their original population.

As a young private, I was asked by another platoon's leader to "fetch his smokes" from his car. His Kools were there, right under his bag of pot. I pushed to pot aside with an umbrella and used a bit of paper to fetch the legal smokes. I told my platoon leader who just laughed it off. When I came down on orders to transfer, CID and I had a nice little talk.

Maybe - you'd like to comment about drug abuse in this case.



CERES — It started as a seemingly simple and somewhat routine call Sunday night: a man was acting strangely at a liquor store.

Moments later, a burst of gunfire echoed through the normally quiet neighborhood. One Ceres police officer lay dying, another was critically wounded, and law enforcement was storming the scene by land and air.

Helicopters hovered above as police ordered people to go inside, lock their doors and turn off the lights.

Three hours later, another gun battle erupted, this one ending in the death of a 19-year-old Marine from Modesto,suspected of shooting the two officers.

Altogether, police and neighbors said Monday, dozens of bullets flew, shattering windows and piercing vehicles as residents hunkered down in terror.

"Brap-brap-brap-brap-brap," said Anthony John Phillips, a 15-year-old boy who lives a block away, trying to describe the rapid gunfire. "I was scared. It was crazy."

In the end:

# Ceres police Sgt. Howard Stevenson, 39, was dead.

# Andres Raya, who police say seemed determined to die rather than return to Iraq, was dead.

# Ceres police officer Sam Ryno, 50, was hospitalized with multiple gunshot wounds. He was in critical condition Monday, and is expected to recover.

Monday, detectives from several law enforcement agencies — from the Ceres police to the FBI — sifted through events leading to Sunday's carnage.

Officers were still struggling to figure out what drove Raya to fire on officers.

"It was premeditated, planned, an ambush," Ceres Police Chief Art de Werk said. "It was a suicide by cop."

De Werk said investigators are not ruling out other motives or accomplices, but believe that Raya, a Marine who had served seven months in Iraq, was concerned about the possibility of going back into combat.

Raya returned to the United States in September and recently visited his family in Modesto.

Julia Cortez Raya said Monday that her son served in Fallujah: "He came back different."

Raya told family members he did not want to return to Iraq. But his father said the family believed by the end of his holiday visit, Raya had decided to make the best of the 2½ years he had left in the Marines.

He rejoined his unit at Camp Pendleton on Jan. 2. Sheriff's Lt. Bill Heyne said Raya was last seen at Camp Pendleton Saturday.

He reportedly told fellow soldiers he was going to get a quick bite to eat. Instead, he showed up in Ceres 24 hours later, armed with an SKS assault rifle. The rifle is a Chinese version of the weapon that Raya was trained to use in the Marines, Heyne said.

Video cameras catch carnage

The first moments of the three-hour drama were caught by video cameras at George's Liquors, 2125 Caswell Ave., near Central Avenue.

The tape shows Raya firing one round into the pavement of the store's parking lot. He then walks into the store.

According to police, Raya told the clerk that he had just been shot at and asked the clerk to call 911, Heyne said.

Steven Marchant, working at the store Sunday night, said he was standing in front of the store when he saw Raya walking toward him from across the street about 8 p.m. Raya was wearing a poncho and yelling "how much he hated the world," Marchant said.

 

[davidmc]

Before getting in a discussion about logic, the fact remains that Bush & Co lied.
Colon Powell presented doctored evidence to the UN 6th february 2003.

In a court of law, that would be perjury, no? A jailable offense.

 

[davidmc]

Maybe - you'd like to comment about drug abuse in this case.



CERES — It started as a seemingly simple and somewhat routine call Sunday night: a man was acting strangely at a liquor store.

Moments later, a burst of gunfire echoed through the normally quiet neighborhood. One Ceres police officer lay dying, another was critically wounded, and law enforcement was storming the scene by land and air.

Helicopters hovered above as police ordered people to go inside, lock their doors and turn off the lights.

Three hours later, another gun battle erupted, this one ending in the death of a 19-year-old Marine from Modesto,suspected of shooting the two officers.

Altogether, police and neighbors said Monday, dozens of bullets flew, shattering windows and piercing vehicles as residents hunkered down in terror.

"Brap-brap-brap-brap-brap," said Anthony John Phillips, a 15-year-old boy who lives a block away, trying to describe the rapid gunfire. "I was scared. It was crazy."

In the end:

# Ceres police Sgt. Howard Stevenson, 39, was dead.

# Andres Raya, who police say seemed determined to die rather than return to Iraq, was dead.

# Ceres police officer Sam Ryno, 50, was hospitalized with multiple gunshot wounds. He was in critical condition Monday, and is expected to recover.

Monday, detectives from several law enforcement agencies — from the Ceres police to the FBI — sifted through events leading to Sunday's carnage.

Officers were still struggling to figure out what drove Raya to fire on officers.

"It was premeditated, planned, an ambush," Ceres Police Chief Art de Werk said. "It was a suicide by cop."

De Werk said investigators are not ruling out other motives or accomplices, but believe that Raya, a Marine who had served seven months in Iraq, was concerned about the possibility of going back into combat.

Raya returned to the United States in September and recently visited his family in Modesto.

Julia Cortez Raya said Monday that her son served in Fallujah: "He came back different."

Raya told family members he did not want to return to Iraq. But his father said the family believed by the end of his holiday visit, Raya had decided to make the best of the 2½ years he had left in the Marines.

He rejoined his unit at Camp Pendleton on Jan. 2. Sheriff's Lt. Bill Heyne said Raya was last seen at Camp Pendleton Saturday.

He reportedly told fellow soldiers he was going to get a quick bite to eat. Instead, he showed up in Ceres 24 hours later, armed with an SKS assault rifle. The rifle is a Chinese version of the weapon that Raya was trained to use in the Marines, Heyne said.

Video cameras catch carnage

The first moments of the three-hour drama were caught by video cameras at George's Liquors, 2125 Caswell Ave., near Central Avenue.

The tape shows Raya firing one round into the pavement of the store's parking lot. He then walks into the store.

According to police, Raya told the clerk that he had just been shot at and asked the clerk to call 911, Heyne said.

Steven Marchant, working at the store Sunday night, said he was standing in front of the store when he saw Raya walking toward him from across the street about 8 p.m. Raya was wearing a poncho and yelling "how much he hated the world," Marchant said.

We all know who is to blame for that-Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Powell This story really makes me mad at those chicken-hawk war-mongers who are more than happy to send people to war but immune from going themselves, when they had the chance. They did'nt invoke conscientious objector status because that would've ruined potential political careers. They just plain refused to go-"cushy" stateside spots/deferrments.I respect conscientious objector's but not yellow-dog's like Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft.

 

[limerickman]

We all know who is to blame for that-Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Powell This story really makes me mad at those chicken-hawk war-mongers who are more than happy to send people to war but immune from going themselves, when they had the chance. They did'nt invoke conscientious objector status because that would've ruined potential political careers. They just plain refused to go-"cushy" stateside spots/deferrments.I respect conscientious objector's but not yellow-dog's like Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft.

David - surely the troops have a choice about going to Iraq ?
In conscience if they think that the war is illegal - they can refuse to go to Iraq.
That's my understanding - am I right/wrong ?

 

[davidmc]

David - surely the troops have a choice about going to Iraq ?
In conscience if they think that the war is illegal - they can refuse to go to Iraq.
That's my understanding - am I right/wrong ?

They would be hounded/harassed & their career would be over. Reminds me of the Supply Corps who refused to drive through hostile territory in those unarmoured fuel trucks. Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me- to question the reasoning or rather, lack thereof, in decisions such as those. Rummy wants everyone to walk @ as if they are in Marseille on a spring afternoon when, in fact, that is not the situation..

 

[limerickman]

They would be hounded/harassed & their career would be over. Reminds me of the Supply Corps who refused to drive through hostile territory in those unarmoured fuel trucks. Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. Rummy wants everyone to walk @ as if they are in Marseille on a spring afternoon when, in fact, that is not the situation..

They have been placed in an awkward situation.
I have a limited amount of sympathy for them.

If you enroll, you know the risks - and unfortunately their political masters think nothing of sending them to war under false pretences.

Their political masters increase the risk of their injury/death by declaring war - when the reason to go to war was an entire lie and uncalled for.

 

[davidmc]

They have been placed in an awkward situation.
I have a limited amount of sympathy for them.

If you enroll, you know the risks - and unfortunately their political masters think nothing of sending them to war under false pretences.

Their political masters increase the risk of their injury/death by declaring war - when the reason to go to war was an entire lie and uncalled for.

What Dubya's done is heinous. Killing in the name of... The scoundrel should be impeached only that's impossible because they've filled the arena w/ born-agains/homophobes, yes-men, rednecks & oligarch's

 

[davidmc]

good try georgie !!!

 

[Brian Cotgrove]

good try georgie !!!

G'day davidmc, I like the caroonist's depiction of G.W. it's a pity that most people who look at the paper will not even take any notice, those who do will probably only smile and then do nothing else except downcry the intent. Most folk don't want to be shaken out of their particular comfort zone?

With regards Lim's comment on one of the other posts about refusal to carry out orders. The whole reason of having "Men in Uniform" and Not Thinking Men in Uniform" is the be all and end all of the "Concept of Military Discipline".

As a new squaddie one is taught to, "Do as I Say Not Do as I Do" inasmuch, words uttered to new recruits, Don't You Dare Ask How Fuc'in High, Just Jump, And I'll Tell You When The Fuc' To Come Down".

The other one was, "When I Say Fuc'in **** Boy, You Jump On The Fuc'in Shovell". As a drill instructor I used such words to indoctrinate/intimidate new recruits, knowing full well, it was done to me initially, and they too, when in my position, will do the same.

The other one that still makes me smile at the though of it, in the "British Army" we were expected to, what was called, "Drive The Foot In". When coming to attention, standing at ease, changing step, about turn, all these drills were made with much foot stamping. Of course we now know it is not good for you feet or legs, but it was a tradition that had been carried out since the days before WW1.

When new recruits complained about it hurting their feet, the usual reply from the drill instructor/me was, "When I see Blood Spurt Out Of The Laceholes Of Your Fuc'in Boots, I'll Send You To The Fuc'in M.O.(Medical Officer) Untill Then Drive Those Fuc'in Feet In".


I never got into the sadistic ******** that one see's being perpetrated on new recruits today or then, I always looked at life from the point of view, it was better to have them do things willingly, and introduce a bit of humour into drills, than have a bunch of rebels at hand.

If you have to go into a stuation in battle, (warfare) it is best to have disciplined men who respect what you stand for, than the other types who would put a bullet in the back of ones head, because of the treatment they were dished out during training?

In a lot of cases the Battalion went to war as they were, old soldiers and newbies all wrapped up in one parcel, it was expected that the old soldiers would lead by example, well that's the theory anyway?

Ok I'm off to do some marching up and down, that's what soldiers do you know, marching up and down?

Keep the wheels in motion, and don't look back, unless it's to see who you dropped on the last climb? TBC

 

[davidmc]

G'day davidmc, I like the caroonist's depiction of G.W. it's a pity that most people who look at the paper will not even take any notice, those who do will probably only smile and then do nothing else except downcry the intent. Most folk don't want to be shaken out of their particular comfort zone?

With regards Lim's comment on one of the other posts about refusal to carry out orders. The whole reason of having "Men in Uniform" and Not Thinking Men in Uniform" is the be all and end all of the "Concept of Military Discipline".

As a new squaddie one is taught to, "Do as I Say Not Do as I Do" inasmuch, words uttered to new recruits, Don't You Dare Ask How Fuc'in High, Just Jump, And I'll Tell You When The Fuc' To Come Down".

The other one was, "When I Say Fuc'in **** Boy, You Jump On The Fuc'in Shovell". As a drill instructor I used such words to indoctrinate/intimidate new recruits, knowing full well, it was done to me initially, and they too, when in my position, will do the same.

The other one that still makes me smile at the though of it, in the "British Army" we were expected to, what was called, "Drive The Foot In". When coming to attention, standing at ease, changing step, about turn, all these drills were made with much foot stamping. Of course we now know it is not good for you feet or legs, but it was a tradition that had been carried out since the days before WW1.

When new recruits complained about it hurting their feet, the usual reply from the drill instructor/me was, "When I see Blood Spurt Out Of The Laceholes Of Your Fuc'in Boots, I'll Send You To The Fuc'in M.O.(Medical Officer) Untill Then Drive Those Fuc'in Feet In".


I never got into the sadistic ******** that one see's being perpetrated on new recruits today or then, I always looked at life from the point of view, it was better to have them do things willingly, and introduce a bit of humour into drills, than have a bunch of rebels at hand.

If you have to go into a stuation in battle, (warfare) it is best to have disciplined men who respect what you stand for, than the other types who would put a bullet in the back of ones head, because of the treatment they were dished out during training?

In a lot of cases the Battalion went to war as they were, old soldiers and newbies all wrapped up in one parcel, it was expected that the old soldiers would lead by example, well that's the theory anyway?

Ok I'm off to do some marching up and down, that's what soldiers do you know, marching up and down?

Keep the wheels in motion, and don't look back, unless it's to see who you dropped on the last climb? TBC

When I was in, one only had to carry out a "lawful order". Remember, there are plenty of people who obtain the rank of officer who seem to be indecisive or "fold under pressure" & don't know which orders to give. Bush, on the other hand, had he not deserted; would probably give orders not caring whether or not they were "lawful" such as invading a soveriegn nation based on a "hunch" which has turned out to be false. His legacy is the same as Kissinger's-"blood on their hands". He better hope that there is'nt an afterlife because he'll be on the "down escalator". Get my meaning

 

[davidmc]

Suprise? Another product of the DC education system?
There is one thing I've noticed about you. You like to follow. You're not much of a leader. If I was Marion I would have called you Mr. Peabody.

Marion !!! Welcome back My education did'nt include much in the way of meaningless exchanges of which you seem to have a great deal of expertise in so, don't expect many responses to your sophmoric, topic bereft post's. Forums are about topics not about insults but is apparently beyond your comprehension. I hope your enrolled for school in whatever country you reside. Why don't you start a thread entitled-" how much of a genius Bush is". That would be interesting.

 

[limerickman]

When I was in, one only had to carry out a "lawful order". Remember, there are plenty of people who obtain the rank of officer who seem to be indecisive or "fold under pressure" & don't know which orders to give. Bush, on the other hand, had he not deserted; would probably give orders not caring whether or not they were "lawful" such as invading a soveriegn nation based on a "hunch" which has turned out to be false. His legacy is the same as Kissinger's-"blood on their hands". He better hope that there is'nt an afterlife because he'll be on the "down escalator". Get my meaning

The WMD arguement has been firmly dismissed now, David.

What is the outcry in the US about this ?
Nothing.
The Merkins are all sitting there watching Entertainment Tonight or Desperate
Housewives or some other shite, after coming home form the McDonalds drive thru.

That's the double whammy.
Feed the (willing) masses drivel, and they would notice just how bad things really are.
It's called a Coup D'Etat : Bush & Co.

I think your country's Constitution is clear about what to do when a coup d'etat happens.
49% have to remove him.
He's a cancer - and an untreated cancer spreads.

 

[MountainPro]

Marion !!! Welcome back

i remember one time i went to the Doc with an spot on my ****...

he told me just to ignore it and guess what....it disappreared...just like gay bent bob marion..yank, merkin, whatever...is there really a difference?

 

[davidmc]

The WMD arguement has been firmly dismissed now, David.

What is the outcry in the US about this ?
Nothing.
The Merkins are all sitting there watching Entertainment Tonight or Desperate
Housewives or some other shite, after coming home form the McDonalds drive thru.

That's the double whammy.
Feed the (willing) masses drivel, and they would notice just how bad things really are.
It's called a Coup D'Etat : Bush & Co.

I think your country's Constitution is clear about what to do when a coup d'etat happens.
49% have to remove him.
He's a cancer - and an untreated cancer spreads.

I couldn't agree more, it's a "money grab" of the most brazen type for the PNAC/Halliburton(Cheney)/Carlyle Group(Bush Sr.)/Kellog Brown Root/Betchtel/ & various weapons systems manufacturers. He is not only an embarrassment but a danger to this country's future, all joking aside.

 

[MountainPro]

This guy is riding our asses.....
Wankers...
the Head ****** ...
cross-dresser?

listen to yourself...do you have some issues you would like do share with the group?

on second thought, you need professional help..

 

[limerickman]

So what what you're really saying is......We're getting hammered by this Squirmy guy. This guy is riding our asses and we can't shake him. You guys like to insult the Merkins on this site. Funny that you can't take it when the tables are turned. You are INDEED all Wankers. Better send a PM to the Head ****** for your next course of action. By the way, where is the cross-dresser?

I think I've solved it.
All the references to wanking - we've got to be in the presence of Charles Graner !

Hey Graner - see ya in 10 years !

 

[Weisse Luft]

Well done ******! See I knew you could do it. You've won the chance to clean my bike. I thought you might like that.

I wouldn't do that. Rumor has it old Limmy-boy is on the "down low" and an offer to clean your bike might be construed as an invitation for a little "out of closet" action for the constantly intoxicated troll.

 

[MountainPro]

I wouldn't do that. Rumor has it old Limmy-boy is on the "down low" and an offer to clean your bike might be construed as an invitation for a little "out of closet" action for the constantly intoxicated troll.

look weisse, its over, youve ****ed it...there are no weapons and havent been for many many years...just accept that and shut the hell up..

your country is bloody embarrassment...

imagine everyone around the world as they think of the USA and al they see is that ridiculous idiot you choose to represent your country...dosent that make you feel ashamed...he is a bloody drunken chimp...

is that really a true picture of your fellow Merkins because that what you have chosen as 'your man'?

 

[limerickman]

I wouldn't do that. Rumor has it old Limmy-boy is on the "down low" and an offer to clean your bike might be construed as an invitation for a little "out of closet" action for the constantly intoxicated troll.

Glickstein, you disappoint me.
Aligning yourself with Graner.

Thought you had more substance than that.
Still your kind need all the friends you can get.