Normandy

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

Last week we are been mainly in Normandy. Very nice, too. We tried a
Voie Vert, which was OK in a Sustrans kind of way (but better
maintained and you could open the gates without a special key). The
best bit, though, was the general level of courtesy and bike awareness
of drivers. We went out at one point with Pete (8) on his Peteybike,
only about the third time he's been out this year, and we had no
problems at all with drivers.

Then we got back to the UK and everybody seems to want to drive at
Warp Factor 9...


Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

 

[Simonb]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> Then we got back to the UK and everybody seems to want to drive at
> Warp Factor 9...

Sometimes I just wonder whether this isle is populated by a bunch of
thoughtless wankers.

 

[Tony Raven]

Simonb wrote:
> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>
>
>>Then we got back to the UK and everybody seems to want to drive at
>>Warp Factor 9...
>
>
> Sometimes I just wonder whether this isle is populated by a bunch of
> thoughtless wankers.
>

Southern England has five times the population density of Normandy so
the roads and everything else are going to be more crowded and pressured.

Tony

 

[MartinM]

Tony Raven wrote:
> Simonb wrote:
> > Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Then we got back to the UK and everybody seems to want to drive at
> >>Warp Factor 9...
> >
> >
> > Sometimes I just wonder whether this isle is populated by a bunch
of
> > thoughtless wankers.
> >
>
> Southern England has five times the population density of Normandy so

> the roads and everything else are going to be more crowded and
pressured.

Yebbut if they drove slower they would fit more cars onto the road with
less congestion. It's more than traffic levels, the French have better
things to do than drive between TescoMart,Harvester and Ikea (with
their inbuilt stress factors BTW) IMX.

 

[Tony Raven]

MartinM wrote:
>
> Yebbut if they drove slower they would fit more cars onto the road with
> less congestion. It's more than traffic levels, the French have better
> things to do than drive between TescoMart,Harvester and Ikea (with
> their inbuilt stress factors BTW) IMX.
>

If you go into the Highlands of Scotland or other places where the
population density is low in the UK you will find the driving much more
relaxed and courteous IME. And I agree about TescoMart etc - in France
its Carrefour, the local bar and Ikea ;-)

Tony

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 23:50:48 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>> Sometimes I just wonder whether this isle is populated by a bunch of
>> thoughtless wankers.

>Southern England has five times the population density of Normandy so
>the roads and everything else are going to be more crowded and pressured.

Up to a point. It's not that the roads there were empty, just that
the drivers on them seemed to be less fanatical about speed.
Trundling along in the car at the speed limit we had only one or two
tailgaters the whole week, and quite often we came up behind French
drivers doing less than the limit. The fastest drivers we saw were
English people on the roads to & from the ports. Lane discipline
seemed to be better, too.

When we were cycling we had no trouble at all even on very narrow
roads. If it was too narrow to pass safely, the French seemed more
prepared to wait than the English. In the UK most drivers will pass
safely when they can, but when it is not safe to pass a significant
number will try anyway - there was much less of that (i.e. none
observed) in Normandy.

Which may well all be an effect of the much lower population density,
but we did notice that general standards of politeness seem to be
higher. This might be a countryside thing, with the exception of the
occasional Farmer Palmer types English rural dwellers are generally
more friendly, too.

We noticed exactly the same last time we visited the region, and then
we were staying near Avranches and rode through several decent-sized
towns. This time we stayed in Ste. Colombe, near Néhou, which is near
St. Sauveur-le-Vicomte, bang in the middle of nowhere.

http://tinyurl.com/9823a


Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

 

[Tony Raven]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>
>
> Up to a point. It's not that the roads there were empty, just that
> the drivers on them seemed to be less fanatical about speed.
> Trundling along in the car at the speed limit we had only one or two
> tailgaters the whole week, and quite often we came up behind French
> drivers doing less than the limit. The fastest drivers we saw were
> English people on the roads to & from the ports. Lane discipline
> seemed to be better, too.
>

But I suspect that is a feature of population and traffic density. In
the Southern UK you are very frequently in a queue, even on the
motorways, with your speed set by the slowest vehicle with little
opportunity to overtake - because both there is a lot of traffic coming
the other way and there is a lot of queue waiting to overtake. In
France with the more open, less crowded roads you are rarely in a queue
(outside the August rush for the sun) and when you do come across
someone slower than you its not a long wait to pass. The French
therefore experience general progress at their own speed with
occassional interruptions whereas the southern Brits feel impeded by
slower vehicles throughout their journey and thereby become frustrated.

Tony

 

[wafflycat]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> When we were cycling we had no trouble at all even on very narrow
> roads. If it was too narrow to pass safely, the French seemed more
> prepared to wait than the English. In the UK most drivers will pass
> safely when they can, but when it is not safe to pass a significant
> number will try anyway - there was much less of that (i.e. none
> observed) in Normandy.
>

Same as The Unfit Family experienced when cycling in Bordeaux area & when in
the middle of Paris. Drivers were noticeably more courteous to cyclists than
on this side of the Chunnel Driving round Paris was hell, but cycling
round it was a joy.

Cheers, helen s

 

[David Martin]

On 16/4/05 11:50 pm, in article [email protected], "Tony
Raven" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Simonb wrote:
>> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Then we got back to the UK and everybody seems to want to drive at
>>> Warp Factor 9...
>>
>>
>> Sometimes I just wonder whether this isle is populated by a bunch of
>> thoughtless wankers.
>>
>
> Southern England has five times the population density of Normandy so
> the roads and everything else are going to be more crowded and pressured.

Wheras on my gentle pootle into Aberdeen yesterday the majority of drivers
on the narrow roads were polite and waited until it was safe to overtake
before passing at a moderate speed. Top marks.

Compare that to the busier roads where crossing the double white lines on
blind bends was de rigeur rather than the exception.

Bah!.

...d

 

[JohnB]

Tony Raven wrote:

> Southern England has five times the population density of Normandy so
> the roads and everything else are going to be more crowded and pressured.

Whilst they may be more crowded that doesn't excuse the aggressive
selfish behaviour of drivers towards other road users and in particular cyclists.

John B

 

[Tony Raven]

JohnB wrote:
>
> Whilst they may be more crowded that doesn't excuse the aggressive
> selfish behaviour of drivers towards other road users and in
> particular cyclists.
>

Basic animal psychology. Pack them closer together and they get more
aggressive and tetchy. Humans have developed ritual and language over
centuries to deal with it in crowded countries such as Japan but
crowding of the roads has happened very quickly and people are isolated
from each other by their cages.

Tony

 

[David Nutter]

On 2005-04-17, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> MartinM wrote:
>>
>> Yebbut if they drove slower they would fit more cars onto the road with
>> less congestion. It's more than traffic levels, the French have better
>> things to do than drive between TescoMart,Harvester and Ikea (with
>> their inbuilt stress factors BTW) IMX.
>>
>
> If you go into the Highlands of Scotland or other places where the
> population density is low in the UK you will find the driving much more
> relaxed and courteous IME.

It's not a universal rule. For example, the population density here in
Lincolnshire is very low, but Mad ******* driving is very, very common, as
shown by the enormous kill rates on the county's roads.

Regards,

-david

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:33:18 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Humans have developed ritual and language over
>centuries to deal with it in crowded countries such as Japan but
>crowding of the roads has happened very quickly and people are isolated
>from each other by their cages.

Interesting thesis.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

 

[David Martin]

On 19/4/05 1:50 pm, in article [email protected],
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:33:18 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Humans have developed ritual and language over
>> centuries to deal with it in crowded countries such as Japan but
>> crowding of the roads has happened very quickly and people are isolated
>> from each other by their cages.
>
> Interesting thesis.

When we were in Norway we concocted essentially the same thesis, except we
called it 'ten kilometer syndrome'.

It runs like this:

It takes two generations to change subconcious habits and attitudes.

Norway is a country that has rapidly (in terms of generations) gone from a
rural, village based population to one where people are concentrated in
cities. In other words, two generations back their ancestors were living in
small villages. You could go for a walk and know there was noone else around
for ten kilometers.

This subconciousness has stuck. When they are on the motorway, there is no
need to signal because subconciously there is noone within ten kilometers.
In the street, there is no need to adjust your direction or gait to cope
with other pedestrians becasue there is noone within ten kilometers.
If you are going through a door, there is noone within ten kilometers so you
can let the door swing back into the person following you.[1]
When the train/bus stops there is noone else for ten kilometers so you can
try to get on straight away despite the crowd of people trying to get off.

The one exception to this was if someone was pushing a child in a pushchair
they had right of way. It seemed at times as if low flying aircraft would
deviate to avoid inconveniencing a mum and buggy. And this was taken to
extremes. Imagine winter. A footpath which has been cleared of snow so there
are 2m high snowbanks either side. It is just wide enough for two prams side
by side. And there they are coming at you. What happens? You are expected to
get out of the prams way, even though it means climbing into the deep snow.
Heaven forbid that they should go single file for a moment.. But there is a
good side ont eh other end of the pram. When there are teenagers being
typical school-party-mill-about-across-the-street you can run the pram into
them with impunity and they apologise ;-)

...d

[1] Going into th eunderground at Nationalteatret one day I held the door
open for the person following me pushing a pushchair. I was wearing locally
sourced clothes inthe local style. I said nothing. The lady pushing the
buggy said, in English, "Thankyou, you must be English".