not-brazed lugs?

Simple question (I think):

reading up on frames I see TIG welded frames, lugged frames, and brazed and lugged frames.

TIG I understand, lugs I understand, brazing I understand butŠ

How else can a lugged frame be joined besides brazing? What kind of joins are non-brazed lugged
frames? or are they all brazed and only some manufacturer's bother to mention the brazing part?

Thanks,

Ben

 

Perhaps silver solder?

"Ben" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Simple question (I think):
>
> reading up on frames I see TIG welded frames, lugged frames, and brazed and lugged frames.
>
> TIG I understand, lugs I understand, brazing I understand butS
>
> How else can a lugged frame be joined besides brazing? What kind of joins are non-brazed lugged
> frames? or are they all brazed and only some manufacturer's bother to mention the brazing part?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ben

 

Ben <[email protected]> wrote in news:bgold-E87209.23332403032003 @nntp.acecape.com:
> How else can a lugged frame be joined besides brazing? What kind of joins are non-brazed lugged
> frames? or are they all brazed and only some manufacturer's bother to mention the brazing part?

Brazing only works with steel frames. Lugged carbon fiber frames, for example, are usually
glued together.

 

So if it's steel (CroMo), it's brazed?

In particular, I'm curious about this Miyata twelve speed I picked up.

But I'm also curious if there is another way lugged steel frames are ever joined.

-Ben

> Brazing only works with steel frames. Lugged carbon fiber frames, for example, are usually glued
> together.

 

"Ben" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Simple question (I think):
>
> reading up on frames I see TIG welded frames, lugged frames, and brazed and lugged frames.
>
> TIG I understand, lugs I understand, brazing I understand butS
>
> How else can a lugged frame be joined besides brazing? What kind of joins are non-brazed lugged
> frames? or are they all brazed and only some manufacturer's bother to mention the brazing part?

I think you may have parsed it differently than the intent.

There are welded frames, there are lugged frames, which are brazed, and then there are brazed
(filleted) frames which have no lugs.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

> "Ben" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Simple question (I think):
> >
> > reading up on frames I see TIG welded frames, lugged frames, and brazed and lugged frames.
> >
> > TIG I understand, lugs I understand, brazing I understand butS
> >
> > How else can a lugged frame be joined besides brazing? What kind of joins are non-brazed lugged
> > frames? or are they all brazed and only some manufacturer's bother to mention the brazing part?

"Wantagofast" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Perhaps silver solder?

Which introduces semantics. Soldering (as with tin/lead) is a mechanical bond, like glue.

Silver "solder" is a true brazing process.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

Ben wrote:

>
> In particular, I'm curious about this Miyata twelve speed I picked up.
>
> But I'm also curious if there is another way lugged steel frames are ever joined.
>

I have a Miyata Quickcross. It is 6000 alloy. I have a lot of stuff on it, rack etc and it is only
11 kg. It has very very thin lugs and uses "pressurised adhesive". Great bike and no sign of
problems. If you do a search you will find their process described.

 

Ben <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> So if it's steel (CroMo), it's brazed?
>
> In particular, I'm curious about this Miyata twelve speed I picked up.
>
> But I'm also curious if there is another way lugged steel frames are ever joined.

Some lugged steel frames have been made in a similar way to lugged carbon & Al frames, using
adhesive and metal lugs. Most notable UK example is the Dyna-Tech concept from Raleigh of
Nottingham; they also employed Ti and Al tubes in this way and sometimes mixed the materials to
give, for instance, a titanium/Reynolds steel hybrid. Peugeot used to (and might still) market
Reynolds-tubed frames employing their exclusive "direct brazing process". Not sure what this
entailed, but I've a feeling that the lugs may have been internal to give a very smooth external
appearance reminiscent of fillet-brazed products.

> > Brazing only works with steel frames. Lugged carbon fiber frames, for example, are usually glued
> > together.

They may use metal lugs (e.g. Look) or the lugs themselves may also be made of carbon, as is the
case with the Trek USPS team frames and the Colnago C40. Some glued and lugged frames also use a
threaded assembly, with the lugs and tube ends being tapped in order to screw together as well as
being bonded - I think this process is exclusive to the Alan company (best known for their
cyclo-cross machines) of Saccolongo, Italy, though. Bonded assembly used to be commonplace for alloy
bikes; welding is comparitively new, with Cannondale and Klein doing much of the pioneering work in
the field.

David E. Belcher

Dept. of Chemistry, University of York

 

"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Ben" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Simple question (I think):
> >
> > reading up on frames I see TIG welded frames, lugged frames, and
brazed
> > and lugged frames.
> >
> > TIG I understand, lugs I understand, brazing I understand butS
> >
> > How else can a lugged frame be joined besides brazing? What kind of joins are non-brazed lugged
> > frames? or are they all brazed and only some manufacturer's bother to mention the brazing part?
>
> I think you may have parsed it differently than the intent.
>
> There are welded frames, there are lugged frames, which are brazed,
and
> then there are brazed (filleted) frames which have no lugs.

The last option is lugs and paint but no brass (but maybe a brazing pin). I have seen this on a few
bikes. Paint is a lot stronger than you might think -- at least for a while. -- Jay Beattie.

 

good thing i used a question mark as i was unsure of the technical difference...seems to me
soldering is typically low temp with soft metals eg lead, tin, silver, gold, whereas brazing is
usually at a higher temp with a harder alloy like brass with a higher melting point.

"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > "Ben" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Simple question (I think):
> > >
> > > reading up on frames I see TIG welded frames, lugged frames, and
brazed
> > > and lugged frames.
> > >
> > > TIG I understand, lugs I understand, brazing I understand butS
> > >
> > > How else can a lugged frame be joined besides brazing? What kind of joins are non-brazed
> > > lugged frames? or are they all brazed and only some manufacturer's bother to mention the
> > > brazing part?
>
> "Wantagofast" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Perhaps silver solder?
>
> Which introduces semantics. Soldering (as with tin/lead) is a mechanical bond, like glue.
>
> Silver "solder" is a true brazing process.
>
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

> > > "Ben" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Simple question (I think): reading up on frames I see TIG welded frames, lugged frames, and
> brazed
> > > > and lugged frames. TIG I understand, lugs I understand, brazing I understand butS How else
> > > > can a lugged frame be joined besides brazing? What kind of joins are non-brazed lugged
> > > > frames? or are they all brazed and only some manufacturer's bother to mention the brazing
> > > > part?

> > "Wantagofast" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Perhaps silver solder?

> "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Which introduces semantics. Soldering (as with tin/lead) is a mechanical bond, like glue. Silver
> > "solder" is a true brazing process.

"Wantagofast" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> good thing i used a question mark as i was unsure of the technical difference...seems to me
> soldering is typically low temp with soft metals
eg
> lead, tin, silver, gold, whereas brazing is usually at a higher temp with
a
> harder alloy like brass with a higher melting point.

The difference is not the temperature per se. It is that a brazed joint exhibits a molecular bond
using dissimilar metals. (Welding uses the same filler material as the work.) Soldering is really
just like glue or epoxy - it is a purely mechanical bond and not at all like a braze. I pointed out
merely that the term "silver solder" is a misnomer because brazing with silver is actually a true
braze, not a"solder".

I am am mechanic I'm sure a scientist could help here with both clarity and accuracy.
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:24:52 -0600 "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:

>The difference is not the temperature per se. It is that a brazed joint exhibits a molecular bond
>using dissimilar metals. (Welding uses the same filler material as the work.) Soldering is really
>just like glue or epoxy - it is a purely mechanical bond and not at all like a braze.

I'm gonna have to disagree, Andy. I think the only difference is temperature. Both actually bond to
the surfaces (if properly done,) but we find that the higher melting point solders/brazing materials
tend to be stronger, so they tend to yield stronger joints.

There's pretty much of a continum of soldering/brazing processes with different materials from
alloys which melt as low as 200F to those which flow at well over 2000F.

The only real distinction is with welding, which as you said, actually involves melting of the base
metal, unlike brazing/soldering.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

In article <[email protected]>, Jim Adney <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 22:24:52 -0600 "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The difference is not the temperature per se. It is that a brazed joint exhibits a molecular bond
>>using dissimilar metals. (Welding uses the same filler material as the work.) Soldering is really
>>just like glue or epoxy - it is a purely mechanical bond and not at all like a braze.
>
>I'm gonna have to disagree, Andy. I think the only difference is temperature. Both actually bond to
>the surfaces (if properly done,) but we find that the higher melting point solders/brazing
>materials tend to be stronger, so they tend to yield stronger joints.

I have to agree with Jim - soldering isn't just a mechanical bond. Tin/lead solder is
mehcanically weak, so electrical codes require connections to have their own mechanical
connection and not rely on solder to hold things together, but soldering is a bond just
as brazing
is.

From http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/brazing/charts/terms/terms.htm

Soldering and Brazing

Thermal joining processes in which the molten filler metal is drawn into a capillary gap between two
closely fitting surfaces. By definition: Soldering takes place at temperatures below 450°C and
Brazing above 450°C. Both processes occur below the melting point of the metals being joined.

 

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:55:47 +0000 (UTC) [email protected] (Luns Tee) wrote:

> From http://www.jm-metaljoining.com/brazing/charts/terms/terms.htm
>
>Soldering and Brazing
>
>Thermal joining processes in which the molten filler metal is drawn into a capillary gap between
>two closely fitting surfaces. By definition: Soldering takes place at temperatures below 450°C and
>Brazing above 450°C. Both processes occur below the melting point of the metals being joined.

Interesting. I never saw anyone willing to define a boundary line between the two before. It's an
artificial and completely arbitrary distinction and once you start to look at all the alloy
possibilities out there it becomes even more clear that there is so much overlap between the
different groups (bismuth, indium, tin/lead, silver, copper, nickle...) that even trying is futile.

Otherwise, I agree completely.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email protected] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

In more mass produced lugged frames, they are sometimes baked on.

 

>In more mass produced lugged frames, they are sometimes baked on.

That's called hearth brazing and it's still brazing, just not with a torch. Phil Brown