Now that we all agree: recumbents are the fastest bikes...



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Cody wrote:
>
> Saddles are an esential part of a bike one has to like them

There is an apparent commuter near where I live that rides a MTB without a seat.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Cody wrote:
> >
> > Saddles are an esential part of a bike one has to like them
>
> There is an apparent commuter near where I live that rides a MTB without a seat.
>
> Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Seriously? Is he a triallist? There are a few trials frames that can't even take a seatpost.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> skip wrote:
> > ... It was the FWD LowFat conversion I was thinking about. I think you posted something about it
> > originally. FWD would seem to solve the front to rear chain management issues nicely on low
> > racers. I wonder about the rideability, handling, etc., and why it doesn't seem to be a popular
> > solution.
>

The Portland Streamliner Gang is basing their vehicles on FWD lowracer chassis:
http://homepage.mac.com/john4bho/PhotoAlbum28.html , both the pictured Barcroft-style crossover
drive and Zox-style "big pulley" drive. By all accounts, the bikes handle very well and they are
practical day-to-day bikes, if you discount the low profile.

(John Climaldi brought his to today's Monster Cookie metric century, complete with rear pannier
rack. He rode his Tour Easy instead, due to heavy rain showers. He didn't feel like getting showered
by liquified road spooge.)

One reason why it isn't more popular is that the lowracer market is still quite tiny. A builder
would have to convince potential customers that FWD is useful and advantageous *and then* tool up,
test, and build FWD frames and forks. "Conventional" lowracers have the advantage of a technically
simpler drivetrain and could use a standard fork.

We'll find out how well the chassis work in their shells at the end of this month, at our annual
Human Power Challenge: http://www.ohpv.org/pir2003/2003race.htm

Jeff
 
> >> >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote...

> Study Fabrizio's posts for a few weeks before trying again. There's a fine line between art and
> constipation... ;-)

Yes, he is a true artist and a master of the troll. We could all take lessons from him.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Cody wrote:
> > >
> > > Saddles are an esential part of a bike one has to like them
> >
> > There is an apparent commuter near where I live that rides a MTB without a seat.
> >
> > Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> Seriously? Is he a triallist? There are a few trials frames that can't even take a seatpost.

Isn't that a saddlepost? ;)

I have never spoken to the rider. I referred to him as an "apparent" commuter since the bike has too
much luggage on it for a recreational ride, and when I have see this rider he is on the same heading
at the approximate same time of day.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
I appreciate the technology of this design and the Oregon, but it looks to me that it would add
unneeded weight, why not use the Zox design? I found it to work marvelous with minimal weight and
idler drag.

Jeff Wills wrote:
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>skip wrote:
>>
>>>... It was the FWD LowFat conversion I was thinking about. I think you posted something about it
>>>originally. FWD would seem to solve the front to rear chain management issues nicely on low
>>>racers. I wonder about the rideability, handling, etc., and why it doesn't seem to be a popular
>>>solution.
>>
>
> The Portland Streamliner Gang is basing their vehicles on FWD lowracer chassis:
> http://homepage.mac.com/john4bho/PhotoAlbum28.html , both the pictured Barcroft-style crossover
> drive and Zox-style "big pulley" drive. By all accounts, the bikes handle very well and they are
> practical day-to-day bikes, if you discount the low profile.
>
> (John Climaldi brought his to today's Monster Cookie metric century, complete with rear pannier
> rack. He rode his Tour Easy instead, due to heavy rain showers. He didn't feel like getting
> showered by liquified road spooge.)
>
> One reason why it isn't more popular is that the lowracer market is still quite tiny. A builder
> would have to convince potential customers that FWD is useful and advantageous *and then* tool up,
> test, and build FWD frames and forks. "Conventional" lowracers have the advantage of a technically
> simpler drivetrain and could use a standard fork.
>
> We'll find out how well the chassis work in their shells at the end of this month, at our annual
> Human Power Challenge: http://www.ohpv.org/pir2003/2003race.htm
>
> Jeff
 
[newsgroups trimmed]

On Fri, 02 May 2003 19:24:17 -0500, Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

>I suspect most bikes for sale at walmart have frames made from 1018 or a similar plain
>carbon steel.

There are a surprising number of AL frame MTB at department stores. Target, for instance, has 3-4 AL
framed bikes, out of maybe 10 adult MTB models they sell. No comment on quality or light-weight...

Jon Meinecke
 
Jon Meinecke writes" "There are a surprising number of AL frame MTB at department stores. Target,
for instance, has 3-4 AL framed bikes, out of maybe 10 adult MTB models they sell. No comment on
quality or light-weight..."

My daughter, a biking newbie, just bought one of them. Amazing!!! $88. It is heavy feeling, compared
to my road bike, but it is full suspension.I estimate mid thirty pounds. But it rides well and
shifts well. The welds look good.

At that price, I don't see anyone making much money. Must be a loss leader.

We rode 21 miles yesterday. Not bad for a first ride.

--
Miles of Smiles,

Tom Blum Winter Haven, Florida (remove "nospam" to reply) Homebuilts: SWB Tour Easy Clone Speed
Machine Clone

www.gate.net/~teblum
 
My Linear doesn't have a seatpost or a saddle. I've never seen a RANS with either one. Definitely
nothing like that on a Vision or even a Bachetta.

Hmmm......

B "Jayne Findhorn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Anybody else get mismarked Tamer products?
>
> Bought a Tamer shim sizer seatpost that was "28.6 mm" on the box but what I got was a 31.4mm.
> Wasted three trips to get it. What unbelievably poor quality control at Tamer Company!
>
> Later I decided to simply glue two cushy rubber pads to the sit-bones area on my saddle. That was
> good enough!
>
> Imagine, a "Poor Richard's Suspension" from just pieces of rubber! It looks weird, but it works
> wonderfully.
 
On 2 May 2003 21:18:59 -0700, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

>You argue quite extensively about how the market and what the majority think and want may not
>always be correct. That is irrelevant. Rightness or correctness has nothing to do with it.

It's not irrelevant, but rather telling as to why the masses 'want' a low-cost 'commodity' bike. A
lower cost bike is perhaps the perfect bike to ride three or four times a year and otherwise sit
unused in the garage... Anyone have statistics on the average miles per year per bike in the US?

>But [recumbents] are an old invention and, like Mr. Cottrell stated, they have been around for
>70 years.

The 70 years is a bit of a red herring...

All current recumbent bike designs are somewhat less than 70 years old. That $500 10kg carbon
low-racer still isn't around! %^)

Anyone know how long recumbent bikes actually have been widely commercially available? Depending on
the definition of "widely available", I'd say perhaps as few as 10-20 years (or less). Even for the
not widely available, manufactuer-direct sold recumbents, it's been probably less well than 35 years
for most...

Just because there are hurtles to marketing recumbents doesn't mean that someone might not come up
with a model or campaign that would increase their sales. For all their faults, BikeE went some way
to "popularizing" recumbents and making them more widely available.

>You may like to tilt at windmills, I don't.

Not sure which windmills you mean,-- I thought we were discussing why recumbents represent only a
small percent of bike sales. Saying they've had 70 years and still people simply don't "want"
them seems to ignore other factors... I don't see recognizing these complexities as attacking
imaginary giants.

I consider my self no knight errant, bit if I were, who'd be my Sancho Panza? %^)

I do wax Quixotic from time to time, particularly when it has to do with environmentalism, wildland
conservation, human rights, civil liberties, and certain "routine" neonatal elective surgical
procedures. In these and other areas, there's seeming little enlightenment accounting for popular
beliefs or values. That's human.

With respect to Fab's crowd, there are probably more recreational recumbent riders than there are
top-level competitive bicycle racers. That he purports to imagine we all would want to emulate his
sporting achievements is only mildly amusing. Bit of a single trick pony...

Jon Meinecke
 
bentbiker <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I appreciate the technology of this design and the Oregon, but it looks to me that it would add
> unneeded weight, why not use the Zox design? I found it to work marvelous with minimal weight and
> idler drag.
>

The double-chain design makes it very easy to get the correct number of gear inches for a 20" wheel
in a streamliner. Without the step up in ratios, the front chainring will overlap the front wheel,
restricting manuverability.

Besides, the Bikee tandem cranks were really cheap.

Jeff
 
this is really harsh, add more Bran to your diet
---------------------------
"Klaus Zeiter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'm uncomfortable and in dire danger this morning when I go ride in traffic.
>
> A man with limited cycling knowledge and one who only copies frame designs for a living will never
> have the personal experience to make a valid comment about recumbents.
>
> Self proclaimed recumbent experts like Mr. Hickey who neither ride recumbents, build and design a
> recumbent, race recumbents or have the education and knowledge to market a recumbent are not to be
> taken too seriously.
>
> Some people in the world are only good at copying standard diamond frame designs and will always
> have limited perspective of what recumbents are capable of. Those type of people are not
> innovators. Their point of view will never change as well as their IQ which is sub par at best.
>
> Gruss Klaus
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>> "Matthew Reed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:<W5gsa.6232$%[email protected]>...
>>
>> > I lived in NYC for a year once, compared to the soul killing flatness of Illinois I think you
>> > could call it mildly hillesque. I moved there from Colorado and NYC reminded me of a pancake. I
>> > think Tom confused coastal with flat. A map of the US shows most people on the coasts. Some
>> > places on the coast are flat and some are not....
>>
>> > Matt Reed
>>
>> You have got that quite correct Matt. Tom confused flat with coastal. The majority of the world's
>> people live either on the coast or relatively close to the oceans or other large bodies of water
>> (big rivers are also bodies of water). This has mostly do to with commerce. The great inland
>> cites of America for instance are located on or near the Great Lakes. Denver and Salt Lake City
>> are two notable exceptions, and they both have their special reasons for being where they are. A
>> coastal city may or may not be flat but flatness has nothing to do with why it is where it
>> is. Even the Quad Cities are located near water(a big river) and are not all that far from
>> Chicago which of course is directly on the Great Lakes....
>
> The Quad Cities are also quite flat - I have to go 7 blocks from my apartment complex to find a
> hill steeper than a 15% grade.
>
> Very few coastal cities have single climbs with hundreds of feet (or more) elevation gain that the
> upright bicycle proponents like to talk about so much.
>

Try Vancouver.
 
Jon Meinecke <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> On 2 May 2003 21:18:59 -0700, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

> >You may like to tilt at windmills, I don't.
>
> Not sure which windmills you mean,-- I thought we were discussing why recumbents represent only a
> small percent of bike sales. Saying they've had 70 years and still people simply don't "want"
> them seems to ignore other factors... I don't see recognizing these complexities as attacking
> imaginary giants.

I do not at all disagree with much of what you are saying, but you are into the complexities of the
subject whereas I am into the simplicities of the subject. The bottom line for me is that recumbents
have been around long enough, whether 70 years or 35 years or some lesser amount of time, to have
made their impact one way or another. We can all dredge up any number of reasons why they haven't
caught on, but the simple fact is that they haven't caught on. That is enough for me to know.

> With respect to Fab's crowd, there are probably more recreational recumbent riders than there are
> top-level competitive bicycle racers. That he purports to imagine we all would want to emulate his
> sporting achievements is only mildly amusing. Bit of a single trick pony...
>
> Jon Meinecke

Please, no one on this newsgroup is taking Fab seriously. But I do think he is mildly amusing. We
recumbent types are a niche in the wider world of cycling as are the racer types. That is the one
thing we do have in common.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
[email protected] wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent Bill Hamilton <[email protected]> wrote:
> : "Fabrizio Mazzoleni" <[email protected]> wrote in news:gpGsa.86720
> : [email protected]:
> :> Take a look at any issue of CycleSport or Procyling, you will NEVER see one of those toys in
> :> those mags, NEVER!
>
> : Which probably says something about the editors and writers of those magazines, rather than
> : anything about recumbents.
>
> Maybe they just consider bents not to be subject of their magazines.
>
> When I take a look at rec.bicycles.misc, I see plenty of bent coverage. =)

I certainly hope that bents never try to invade the domain of regular bikes. Regular bike racing is
about the individual athlete and not the machine. Regular bike racing has a lot of restrictions on
what you can race. Bent racing is about the machines with little or no restrictions and the people
who who build them. Just like there are separate classes in car racing there should be different
kinds of bike racing. It would make one big mess if all vehicles had to race together. I guess you
would call that city traffic congestion.
 
Mike Latondresse wrote:
>
> > Very few coastal cities have single climbs with hundreds of feet (or more) elevation gain that
> > the upright bicycle proponents like to talk about so much.
> >
>
> Try Vancouver.

One example - I believe that would fall under the category of very few. ;)

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
Klaus Zeiter wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'm uncomfortable and in dire danger this morning when I go ride in traffic.
>
> A man with limited cycling knowledge and one who only copies frame designs for a living will never
> have the personal experience to make a valid comment about recumbents.
>
> Self proclaimed recumbent experts like Mr. Hickey who neither ride recumbents, build and design a
> recumbent, race recumbents or have the education and knowledge to market a recumbent are not to be
> taken too seriously.
>
> Some people in the world are only good at copying standard diamond frame designs and will always
> have limited perspective of what recumbents are capable of. Those type of people are not
> innovators. Their point of view will never change as well as their IQ which is sub par at best.
>
> Gruss Klaus

On the other hand.. riding bicycles is a lot of fun! Bernie
 
Tom Sherman wrote:

> Mike Latondresse wrote:
> >
> > > Very few coastal cities have single climbs with hundreds of feet (or more) elevation gain that
> > > the upright bicycle proponents like to talk about so much.
> > >
> >
> > Try Vancouver.
>
> One example - I believe that would fall under the category of very few. ;)
>
> Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Tom - I accidentally posted my earlier reply to yourself only instead of the ng. Sorry bout that:

Tom Sherman wrote:

> > You have got that quite correct Matt. Tom confused flat with coastal.
> >
> Very few coastal cities have single climbs with hundreds of feet (or more) elevation gain that the
> upright bicycle proponents like to talk about so much.
>
> Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Have you been to Vancouver BC, Seattle, Portland, Oakland, San Francisco.... ? Many of the West
Coast's coastal cities have a real hill or two in them. The climbs may not always be "hundreds of
feet", but there are some pretty wicked urban hills. Best regards, Bernie

PS: try riding east out of Skagway Alaska some time.
 
"Klaus Zeiter" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:KlausZeiter-

> A man with limited cycling knowledge and one who only copies frame designs for a living will never
> have the personal experience to make a valid comment about recumbents.
>
> Self proclaimed recumbent experts like Mr. Hickey who neither ride recumbents, build and design a
> recumbent, race recumbents or have the education and knowledge to market a recumbent are not to be
> taken too seriously.
>
> Some people in the world are only good at copying standard diamond frame designs and will always
> have limited perspective of what recumbents are capable of. Those type of people are not
> innovators. Their point of view will never change as well as their IQ which is sub par at best.

If you want to discuss the supposed virtues of recumbent bicycles, then your arguments should be
either self-evident or supported with proper evidence. There is no sense lambasting your opponent.
It only serves to weaken your credibility.

Mr. Hickey has never proclaimed himself an expert on recumbents in these forums. He is speaking as a
frame builder and shop owner who can provide considerable insight into the business. Although I
have never met the man personally nor communicated with him directly, his postings here in
r.b.m. have always been reasonable. I'm sure that the cross-posting into a.r.b.r. has brought
his postings to a new audience and that many of those are well-ensconced in the recumbent hype.
Perhaps the cross-post needs to be broken so we can continue a reasonable discussion without the
interruption of baseless arguments from those with an agenda.

-Buck
 
Klaus Zeiter <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm uncomfortable and in dire danger this morning when I go ride in traffic.

Nice edit there, "Klaus". You should work for the media in the US. They also don't take truth too
seriously either, and will stoop to dishonest editing to try to make a point as well.

>A man with limited cycling knowledge and one who only copies frame designs for a living will never
>have the personal experience to make a valid comment about recumbents.
>
>Self proclaimed recumbent experts like Mr. Hickey who neither ride recumbents, build and design a
>recumbent, race recumbents or have the education and knowledge to market a recumbent are not to be
>taken too seriously.

Heh heh heh. If I proclaimed my "expert" status about 'bents, you should easily be able to point us
to it, eh?

>Some people in the world are only good at copying standard diamond frame designs and will always
>have limited perspective of what recumbents are capable of. Those type of people are not
>innovators. Their point of view will never change as well as their IQ which is sub par at best.

Is it my imagination, or does it seem to others reading these missives that riding a 'bent seems to
cause painful constipation or something? It seems like the more seriously they take it, the less
sense of humor they have. Thank goodness Jobst doesn't ride a 'bent.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
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