Now that we all agree: recumbents are the fastest bikes...



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"Wile E.Coyote" <[email protected]> wrote:

>this is really harsh, add more Bran to your diet

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. It HAS to be constipation. Must have something to do with
having your **** chute pointing forward while riding or something. Maybe it's the effect of the wind
blowing up the riding shorts and tickling Mr. Sphincter into paralysis?

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

>---------------------------
>"Klaus Zeiter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > I'm uncomfortable and in dire danger this morning when I go ride in traffic.
>>
>> A man with limited cycling knowledge and one who only copies frame designs for a living will
>> never have the personal experience to make a valid comment about recumbents.
>>
>> Self proclaimed recumbent experts like Mr. Hickey who neither ride recumbents, build and design a
>> recumbent, race recumbents or have the education and knowledge to market a recumbent are not to
>> be taken too seriously.
>>
>> Some people in the world are only good at copying standard diamond frame designs and will always
>> have limited perspective of what recumbents are capable of. Those type of people are not
>> innovators. Their point of view will never change as well as their IQ which is sub par at best.
>>
>> Gruss Klaus
 
Klaus Zeiter <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'm uncomfortable and in dire danger this morning when I go ride in traffic.
>
> A man with limited cycling knowledge and one who only copies frame designs for a living will never
> have the personal experience to make a valid comment about recumbents.
>
> Self proclaimed recumbent experts like Mr. Hickey who neither ride recumbents, build and design a
> recumbent, race recumbents or have the education and knowledge to market a recumbent are not to be
> taken too seriously.
>
> Some people in the world are only good at copying standard diamond frame designs and will always
> have limited perspective of what recumbents are capable of. Those type of people are not
> innovators. Their point of view will never change as well as their IQ which is sub par at best.
>
> Gruss Klaus

Exactly what connection does your reply have to the quoted text? Barry S. made a ridiculously untrue
statement alleging that *DF* bikes are uncomfortable and dangerous in traffic. Mark H. called him on
it. To paraphrase your reply- Some people in this world can't follow a simple discussion. They are
not to be taken seriously. Allowances should be made for them because they are obviously stupid.

Bob Hunt
 
Jon Meinecke <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> On 1 May 2003 17:04:22 -0700, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:
>
> >Jon Meinecke <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:<[email protected]>...
> >> On Thu, 01 May 2003 02:15:37 GMT, "Eugene Cottrell" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > [...] Bents have been around for at least 70 years and most people just don't like them.
> >>
> >> What explains the 'grin' factor of people who test ride my BikeE?
> >
> >[...] There is just no way around Mr. Cottrell's very well thought out and very well written
> >message summing up the recumbent bicycle situation. [...] Anything that has been around for 70
> >years (!) in America, the land of the big PX, and does not sell can not be explained away other
> >than "...people just don't like them."
>
> Perhaps. I'm not convinced that correlation is necessarily causation in this case. The number of
> people who have never even seen a recumbent bike, much less ridden one is significant. You could
> argue that if they were 'really that good', more people would have heard of them... This is
> probably true, but there are other factors, too.
>
> >If people want something it will be created for them in a trice.
>
> Yes, the free market theory.
>
> I'd like a zero pollution car that's inexpensive to buy and operate! %^)
>
> Lack of want isn't the only explanation for something's lack of existence or commercial success.
> And lack of commercial success isn't necessarily a true evaluation of which of several
> alternatives is actually "better" either: Beta vs. VHS, MacOS
> vs. Windows, ... %^)
>
> There's the concept of 'good enough'...
>
> > the masses have spoken loud and clear
>
> Consider the pre-Copernicus masses speaking loud and clear... Our world view remains an issue as
> does the 'establishment' with a vest interest in the status quo.
>
> The masses, by the way, also 'know' Saddam was responsible in some way for the 9-11 attacks. %^0
>
> > and they [the masses] don't want recumbents.
>
> Fine with me if they don't. I just wish I'd known *I wanted* a recumbent long before I actually
> did. One of the reasons I didn't, was the lack of marketing.
>
> These's also the issue of price (catch-22). The masses want the $119 bike. That's fine. I'm glad
> they have that option. For recumbents to move from a niche product, they would need to be large
> shifts in price, availability, and probably 'culture'. I don't expect that to happen.
>
> The issue of recumbent marketing comes up from time to time on the newsgroup. I wrote previously:
>
> Recumbents are the Rodney Daingerfield of bicycles. They suffer from more than just
> self-esteem, in marketing, however.
>
> - they do not appeal to pace-line racers and wanna-be's
> - they do not appeal to off-roaders and wanna-be's
> - they do not appeal to stunt-riders and wanna-be's
>
> For each of these, the 'required' equipment to compete or "fit in" is predetermined not to be
> recumbent. These are basically closed markets for recumbents, and to some extent, they drive
> the general market by perception and preconceptions.
>
> Outside of upright specific applications, that leaves people who use bicycles for basic
> transportation, recreation, fitness, commuting, touring, etc... But relative to upright bikes,
> recumbents lag in appeal to these cyclists as well.
>
> - they do not compete on cost
> - they do not compete on availability
> - they do not compete on familiarity
> - they do not compete on peer pressure
> - they do not compete on marketing etc...
>
> This makes recumbents a tough sell.
>
> Jon Meinecke
>
> According to Gould, evolution was infused with the intellectual parasite of progress because
> it threatened to depose humans from the throne of life on Earth. -- from _Perspectives_, ULCA,
> Spring 1998

Jon: I must disagree on your last statements, this is a specialized market.You would see a bunch of
titanium uprights in a bicycle shop window and i know your average "K"mart bicycle rider would have
sticker shock and a stroke looking at the price tag at some of these gems. Yes i know some of the
recumbents have stickers like that too. But also there are some affordable bents out there.and the
number is steadily growing.Although i kinda like having this setup that i have, a rare bike on the
road gets attention and also is a good "billboard" for whatever bike company you like. popularity in
a product just takes time to come into fruition Dave: Feet first always :-D
 
Bernie <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> > Mike Latondresse wrote:
> > >
> > > > Very few coastal cities have single climbs with hundreds of feet (or more) elevation gain
> > > > that the upright bicycle proponents like to talk about so much.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Try Vancouver.
> >
> > One example - I believe that would fall under the category of very few. ;)
> >
> > Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> Tom - I accidentally posted my earlier reply to yourself only instead of the ng. Sorry bout that:
>
>
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> > > You have got that quite correct Matt. Tom confused flat with coastal.
> > >
> > Very few coastal cities have single climbs with hundreds of feet (or more) elevation gain that
> > the upright bicycle proponents like to talk about so much.
> >
> > Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> Have you been to Vancouver BC, Seattle, Portland, Oakland, San Francisco.... ? Many of the West
> Coast's coastal cities have a real hill or two in them. The climbs may not always be "hundreds of
> feet", but there are some pretty wicked urban hills. Best regards, Bernie
>
> PS: try riding east out of Skagway Alaska some time.

try Tennesee(extreme eastern "Knoxville")and (western"nashville" areas, Miles plus hills for all of
ya!!! Dave P
 
[email protected] (Joseph Kochanowski) wrote in message I certainly hope that bents never try to
invade the domain of regular
> bikes. Regular bike racing is about the individual athlete and not the machine. Regular bike
> racing has a lot of restrictions on what you can race. Bent racing is about the machines with
> little or no restrictions and the people who who build them. Just like there are separate classes
> in car racing there should be different kinds of bike racing. It would make one big mess if all
> vehicles had to race together. I guess you would call that city traffic congestion.

Not true friend there are restrictions in recumbent racing and model choice,Its not the helter
skelter go for broke type thing you would think it is Dave
 
It took three goes to get a suspension seat post that fitted my old Trek 930, due to the original
post having an incorrect size stamped on it...

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
Tom Sherman wrote:

> The Merlin [1] looks to be very similar to the (non- production) Razz-Fazz [2]. Cross-pollination
> of ideas in the European HPV racing community?

Pretty much. Merlin designer Walter Berger used to race a Birk Comet in both fully-faired and
tail-faired guises, but the real impetus for the Merlin came at the 2001 Worlds, when Walter's wife
Nicole had the transmission of her Kingcycle Wasp go into self-digest mode during the road race. She
borrowed a spectating Razz-Fazz. That winter, Pressure was Applied.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
Toy: /n/ an artefact designed to be played with.

Yep, that's as good a description of *any* racing bike as I have yet read.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
I have news. Scarcely *anyone* on this side of the Atlantic has *any* idea of what a "slug" is
unless referring to a homeless snail with a cabbage habit...

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
In alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent Dave Patterson <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (Joseph Kochanowski) wrote in message I certainly hope that bents never try to
> invade the domain of regular
>> bikes. Regular bike racing is about the individual athlete and not the machine. Regular bike
>> racing has a lot of restrictions on what you can race. Bent racing is about the machines with
>> little or no restrictions and the people who who build them.
> Not true friend there are restrictions in recumbent racing and model choice,Its not the helter
> skelter go for broke type thing you would think it is

There's a nice analogy with other sports - fi. sailing. There are regatta's which combine different
types of boats, regatta's that are for just a particular type of boat, and regatta's that just allow
'the very standard' boats, as it has been delivered by the company who build it.

A race with 'bents and classic bikes would be the first kind of event, a mixed adventure. That would
be ok, as long as you work with 'compensation'. If you race this kind of bike, you get x
seconds/minutes/hours ;) added to your score, to make a fair comaprison. Within sailing, this causes
a heated debate. Yet, for local clubs this is usually the way to go.

A race with 'a particular kind of bike', be it bents or classic bikes is the second event. It is
still a 'go for broke' kind of story, because of you want to keep up with the really cool guys, you
need to have the fastest gear. In (highly regulated!) sailing, carbon everything has been in use for
a long time, and within bent-racing the M5 carbon low racer is the expensive counterpart of a carbon
mast/helm/rudder/etc. I expect this to go for classic bikes as well, as they seem to have improved
to a point in which 95% of all improvements that could be made to this type of frame have been made.
The last 20% before perfection cost 80% of all the cash, someone told me recently ;-)

So, the last group might be the most interesting, 'the standardized' group. Think what would happen
if a company started a competition with their standard bikes. No thrills, checking of the bikes to
see that they are equal, and - fair racing. Within sailing, fi. the Laser class works like this.
Creativity goes into trimming the sail, and into the quality of sailing. Fair competition,
relatively open to newcomers because they can get the gear the pro's have for a reasonable price.
This can be done with any fast bike (otherwise it wouldn't be fun), either bent's of classic bikes.

Choose your own favorite kind of bike, but understand that if you want to go for the 'we need to
compare humans, not bikes' argument, that you might need to change some of the classic bike
racing as well.

ciao,

Niels
 
Dave Patterson wrote;

> Not true friend there are restrictions in recumbent racing and model choice,Its not the helter
> skelter go for broke type thing you would think it is

Er, it is, actually. And I know this from twenty years of doing it. There are different *classes* in
recumbent racing, but sensible HPV organisations have an open class in which there are no
restrictions save for the sensible ones like having appropriate brakes and not having dodgy uncapped
nose-removing protuberances.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
On 5 May 2003 16:08:52 -0700, [email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote:

>Jon Meinecke wrote:
>
>> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>> >You may like to tilt at windmills, I don't.
>>
>> Not sure which windmills you mean,
>
>I do not at all disagree with much of what you are saying, but you are into the complexities of
>the subject

Actually, I'm enjoying a good conversation and trying to understand where people are coming from...

>[...] I am into the simplicities of the subject. The bottom line [...] [...] the simple fact is
>that they haven't caught on. That is enough for me to know.

That's fine, but what insight does knowing that *simple fact* provide?

>Please, no one on this newsgroup is taking Fab seriously. But I do think he is mildly amusing. We
>recumbent types are a niche in the wider world of cycling as are the racer types. That is the one
>thing we do have in common.

I enjoy Fab too. I'm intentionally *not cross posting*, however, as I have no interest in trolling
such 'giants' or any need to convince anyone (especially the rec.bike.misc regulars) of the
superiority of any particular bike design. Many of them and indeed many ARBR readers are much more
knowledgeable, serious and fit bike riders than I.

I'm perfectly happy to ride my bike for fun, fitness, and basic transportation as much as I can,---
and wish it could be more. I *simply know* a recumbent bike permits me to do that in ways that an
upright design *simply ergonomically* cannot for me.

Jon Meinecke

This story has been quoted before, but seems apropos...

A Zen Teacher saw five of his students return from the market, riding their bicycles. When they
had dismounted, the teacher asked the students, "Why are you riding your bicycles?"

The first student replied, "The bicycle is carrying this sack of potatoes. I am glad that I do
not have to carry them on my back!" The teacher praised the student, saying, "You are a smart
boy. When you grow old, you will not walk hunched over, as I do."

The second student replied, "I love to watch the trees and fields pass by as I roll down the
path." The teacher commended the student, "Your eyes are open and you see the world."

The third student replied, "When I ride my bicycle, I am content to chant, nam myoho renge kyo."
The teacher gave praise to the third student, "Your mind will roll with the ease of a newly
trued wheel."

The fourth student answered, "Riding my bicycle, I live in harmony with all beings." The teacher
was pleased and said, "You are riding on the golden path of non-harming."

The fifth student replied, "I ride my bicycle to ride my bicycle." The teacher went and sat at
the feet of the fifth student, and said, "I am your disciple."

Courtesy of Piaw Na, Internet-BOB
 
On 6 May 2003 00:47:47 -0700, [email protected] (Dave Patterson) wrote:

> [Jon Meinecke wrote]
>
>> relative to upright bikes, recumbents lag in appeal to these cyclists as well.
>>
>> - they do not compete on cost
>> - they do not compete on availability
>> - they do not compete on familiarity
>> - they do not compete on peer pressure
>> - they do not compete on marketing etc...
>>
>> This makes recumbents a tough sell.
>
>Jon: I must disagree on your last statements, this is a specialized market

That's true. However, The original context in which I posted this was a discussion of broadening the
market for recumbents. Even here, it's posted with regard to why recumbent market share is small...

The largest market share goes to commodity bikes. If serious paceline /racers/club riders want to
affirm their bike choices on the basis of what geometry they share with commodity bikes, who am I to
argue? %^)

>titanium uprights [...] your average "K"mart bicycle rider sticker shock [...]

Sticker shock for many/most bike buyers starts at substantially lower than titanium prices. Most
bikes are bought for kids.

Bikes for the post thirty-something (and even older) are niche that manufactuers might like to
expand. In better times, with more disposable income and credit run to the limits, they were an
attractive, higher margin bearing market. There was, and still is, a significant appeal to the wanna
be's, however.

> some of the recumbents have stickers like that too. But also there are some affordable bents

Yes, and I wish there were more. I think price is a larger hurdle to recumbent bike popularity
than is frame geometry. But this is a complex cultural and sociological issue more than a
technical one, it seems.

>i kinda like having this setup that i have, a rare bike

I don't mind it either, though I don't ride a recumbent to be different.

>popularity in a product just takes time to come into fruition

Time's up, some maintain, "the masses have spoken".
%^)

Jon Meinecke
 
You forgot one, Jon.

The sixth student said, "I ride my bicycle because I want people to look up to me and say 'Wow! He
looks really good up there!' The teacher replied 'Go away, Fabrizio!'"

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
> > hope that bents never try to invade the domain of regular
> >> bikes. Regular bike racing is about the individual athlete and not the machine.

BS...

Fast as he is, Lance Amstrong is not going to win the Tour on my Peugot DF. The world's best
triathlete isn't going to win without a light bike with the latest aerodynamic stuff on it.

Bike racing has always been about the Bike and the Athlete. The trick is knowing which bits of
technology will be approved by the snobs and traditionalists in charge of bike racing.

Usually, these will only be those that are accepted and pushed by the large bike makers who are,
after all, the money behind racing. Imagine the embarassment it would cause a company if, even in
some kind of mixed race, it became clear that a recumbent was indeed a faster time trial bike.
How would you then convince your customers that your new $5,000 technological marvel is worth
their money?

Note that for the hour record, they've taken away many athlete's efforts, declaring, after the fact,
that the bike is illegal. The current standard is for no technology that wasn't around for Merx (sp)
record. Of course, I wonder if they force anyone to use 1960s bearings, bushings, crankarms, and
frame materials. I sincerely doubt
it. (Great article in this month's Bicycling about this record, and one of its premier
record-breakers.)
 
There is very little fundamental difference in design between different brands of "UCI bikes",
though, and to reinforce this, they have decreed a minimum weight for bikes at 6.8 kg. It's
comparatively easy, if expensive, to produce a lighter racing bike than this, but you won't find Mr.
L. Armstrong on one any time soon.

Designs for unfaired racing recumbents are, admittedly, converging towards the generic low racer
in a similar manner, but at least we don't need ten pages of regulations to tell us what "a
bicycle" is...

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
[email protected] (Gene Nygaard) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... <snip>

>
> Those pounds are every bit as much units of mass as the kilograms are. In fact, we don't even have
> independent standards for pounds any more--they are by definition an exact fraction of a kilogram,
> .45359237 kg to be precise.
>
<snip>

>
> American Society for Testing and Materials, Standard for Metric Practice, E 380-79, ASTM 1979.
>
> 3.4.1.2 Considerable confusion exists in the use of the term weight as a quantity to mean
> either force or mass. In commercial and everyday use, the term weight nearly always
> means mass; thus, when one speaks of a person's weight, the quantity referred to is
> mass. . . .
>
> Gene Nygaard http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/

I looked at the NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology)web site, and the U.S., at some
time in the past, has defined apothecary, avoirdupois, and troy as mass, not weight. Not exactly
sure when, but they are specifically defined as mass. So, my question is, are there any official
weight identifiers? If I'm tooling along on my R40 on the moon, I still mass 100Kg, but I want to
know what I weigh.
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Very few coastal cities have single climbs with hundreds of feet (or more) elevation gain that the
> upright bicycle proponents like to talk about so much.
>
> Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

I don't think you know what you're talking about. I believe you'd be hard-pressed to find a coastal
city on the West Coast of the US that is more than a few miles from a climb such as this.
 
> the generic low racer in a similar manner, but at least we don't need ten pages of regulations to
> tell us what "a bicycle" is...
>

Nope, just several thousand usenet posts!
 
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