NP viewable when riding...

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by tomUK, May 29, 2012.

  1. quenya

    quenya New Member

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    I see your problem being math.  You seem to believe a number greater than zero is equal to zero.  This may also explain your constant fumbling the math required to work out TSS.  Off subject; your English isn't great either. As for my empirical evidence supporting Andy's metrics, I raced a circuit race I didn't perform an experiment.  I simply observed that despite frequent breaks in effort followed by hard   efforts I reached my absolute maximum output for ~50 minutes and it was about 3% above my 'well established' FTP.   My heart rate is fairly irrelevant as it was neither high nor low enough to kill me.   As to my average power, I'm on my phone at work and keep my power data on my desktop at home; but, I believe AP was in the 250-260 range.  Which supports the NP concept, as I can do relatively steady rides of much longer than 50 minutes in that range.
     


  2. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Stop telling lies: I said no such thing.
     
  3. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    What you wrote amounts to the same.

    I am not going to look up your post to determine your exact words but you did indicate that racers training averaged .75IF. The inference being that I would have to average .75IF while doing 300TSS for 90 days.

    The purpose of my comment - 3 hours .75IF, 3 hours 0IF, 3 hours .75IF, was to show how foolish your statement is.

    To save you from doing the math: that 9 hour ride produces a .61IF.

    So if I trained that way and counted the easy spinning I would not be doing race training, but if I did not count the easy spinning I would be.

    By now you should be seeing how foolish your comments are becoming.

    ---

    I am still waiting for you to say what proof you are willing to accept to show that 300TSS for 90 days is possible. There seems to be a season deadline. I need to be done by the first of December or I need to travel to a different location.
     
  4. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Anecdotes are for the most part worthless. I will tell you one.

    A couple days ago I was out for 2:20, 166 TSS, .82IF. And then yesterday I was out for 1:45, 106TSS, .76IF.

    Yesterday's ride was much harder. So hard I took today off.

    Does it show NP, IF and TSS are wrong. No. Just an anecdote. But it does show how to prove that NP, IF, and TSS are wrong.

    ---

    The first ride was my usual hit the hill hard a couple times and then soft pedal to the next hill. The second ride was my usual hit it hard until you fall apart and then soft pedal home.
     
  5. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    I need to be done by the first of December or I need to travel to a different location.

    Preferably one without an internet connection
     
  6. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    AOG, your anecdote shows nothing without knowing what type of training you had done in the days previous. Based on the fact you were going as hard as you could an your IF was only .72, my guess would be you were fatigued
     
  7. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    More revisionist history: what I have said is that racing cyclists normally train in a manner that results in an average IF of 0.75 or greater. That in no way implies that an occasional bout of randonneuring does not constitute training.

    As for your specific example, once again you've got the math wrong: the overall IF for a ride such as you describe (assuming constant power during the first and last thirds) would be 0.68.

    Finally, if you want to prove that you can do 300 TSS/d for 90 d in a row, all you have to do is post your files...
     
  8. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    You seem to have missed the context in my post. The "training/randonneuring" rides were the scheduled rides for the 90 days. So the actual for a ride is the average for the 90 days.

    You also seem to miss the point that the rides are identical except the training ride allows for a 3 hour respite while the randonneuring ride requires 3 additional hours of riding. (Some of the racers used to do a hard morning ride, sit in on the group ride, and then do a hard afternoon ride. I don't think they considered those days to be randonneuring.)

    You seem to have some misunderstanding about training. How can you know what the IF a person who trains at 300TSS/day should be, when you claim no one can train at 300TSS/day level? In addition the idea behind training hard for short periods of time is that you make up for the lack of time by increasing intensity. It seems that if one has the time to spend one would decrease the intensity.

    I guess that is why you (singular; alone) don't write training plans, while you (plural; with others) do.

    ---

    As for me doing it. You will have to make clear what is training and what is not training, and also what proof you want. (I guess that removing the middle third from a 9 hour ride is out.) And of course you will need to pay me.

    ----

    .75^2*3*100 = 168TSS
    .75^2*3*100 = 168TSS
    total 336TSS

    .62^2*9*100 = 336TSS

    .68^2*7.5*100 = 336TSS Seems you used 7.5 hours not 9 hours. I understand how we got different answers. But the break time is really not important.
     
  9. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Andy, out of curiosity I scanned my ride files for my highest cumulative TSS for 12 consecutive weeks. My max was 10,950, not even half of the 25,200 needed for 300TSS per day for 12 weeks. I don't think I could do 25,000 TSS in 12 weeks./img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif
     
  10. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    RDO, out of curiosity /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif what was your peak CTL during that 12 weeks?

    Did you start to see a decline in training performance toward the end of that 12 weeks, hit the end of a scheduled training period or something else interrupt the schedule?
    I ask because I know you can tolerate more training load than most of us.

    My last scheduled break in the spring I was starting to taper in performance after a number of weeks of training. First time I have ever worked up to 90, but then I started to struggle hitting L4 intervals. I was in a decline before I went on vacation. I know that I am a long way from being able to handle the training load like those of you that race. I hope this improves with more years of consistent training. I am slowly climbing back out of that hole. Performance is increasing again, but so is that residual feeling of fatigue. Fun times /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif


    [​IMG]
     
  11. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    I'll have to go back and look at that when I have some time. I was able to pull this data because I keep a bunch of weekly statistics from my ride file parsing program (e.g., total minutes, total TSS, minutes and TSS by level, etc.). So, I was able to just do a rolling 12-week cumulative total of total TSS pretty quickly. I'll have to go into WKO+ to look at CTL. I did out of curiosity look at my FTP during that 12-week period and noticed that it was only 270 because that was a ramp-up phase well before any target events. So, my focus during that phase was just lots of L4 minutes. I also noticed that my weekly TSS numbers were pretty consistent. I had a low of 697 in the first week and 1255 a couple of weeks before the end, but the other weeks ranged from about 800-1000 per week.

    At the end of that particular 12-week period, I actually began increasing intensity and dropped total volume a bit so my weekly TSS numbers dropped down a bit as I was pushing my FTP up to 300 for a target event.
     
  12. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Felt,
    Without knowing anything about the makeup of your weekly training it's still not hard to understand your struggle with normal L4 workouts in the weeks leading up to your vacation. It's pretty clear you went into a slow fade after hitting your CTL peak of 90 and it's also clear that you stopped doing your big weekly ride about that time. No issues with any of that, but after 6 weeks of slightly dropping CTL (assuming the makeup of that training hadn't changed much) it's not surprising you got a bit stale and struggled with your L4 work.

    Just a wild guess, but it looks like your biggest one day effort was also the onset of the plateau and the fade towards the vacation. Was that a big event you'd been looking forward to and perhaps lost a bit of drive and motivation afterwards? From the million mile view it looks like a short backing off and coming up for air around the 90 peak and then a return to building instead of a training load plateau might have made sense.

    FWIW, as Alex frequently points out, one of the best uses of the PMC is to go back and see what you were doing when you felt great, what led up to periods where you didn't feel great and to identify training patterns that work best for you. IOW, using the PMC as Alex's 'retrospectograph' (or sumtin' like that).

    -Dave
     
  13. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Dave, thanks for your observations. Good thing my blog has turned out to be training log of sorts and help me remember what happened and why.

    The big ride was just a casual 100 mile ride with a friend. He ended up getting sick on the return so I did all the work on the return and ended up racking far more TSS than I had expected. I thought I would end up with about 300 TSS based on other solo efforts on the same route. For whatever reason that day turned out harder. I remember that extra 64 TSS really seemed to zap me. http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/03/brewery-to-old-federal-road-100-mile.html

    This is where a training log helps jog my old memory. I don't know why I did not go back and look at this before posting.

    Looking back at those weeks where I was declining I first noted back and hip issues on April 28th and now I remember having issues from about the time of the big ride all the way to vacation and it was getting worse. I continued to train as shown in the PMC. I vaguely remember trying to cope with back discomfort and make it to the scheduled vacation break rather than take more time away from training.

    April 28th - http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/04/sosbee-to-411.html

    Edit: on the return from vacation I have intentionally toned down my ramp rate for intensity and duration. I don't have any events planned so I might as well see how things go with a slower increase in training stress load. I was kidding with a friend the other day saying that I should be in good shape for some punchy rides around Thanksgiving.
     
  14. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Wow, am I mistaken or did Dave just jump in and post! It has been a while since I have seen a fresh Dave post, never lacks in useful information
     
  15. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Actually I was just getting ready to post a while back when bgoetz, swampy, felt, and quenya launched an attack and I was off the back....I've been chasing for the past six months and finally caught the tail end of the group. That last post to felt nearly wiped me out, I'd better sit in and rest for a bit :)

    -Dave
     
  16. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Dave, I hope you will hang around in the pack /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

    I hope to get better at using the PMC to manage the load. There are so many factors involved that it seems like a training diary is good to use along with the PMC as in this case where I actually forgot about the role the annoying back irritation played in decline. Never getting as high 90 CTL I had never experienced that type of constant fatigue while at the same time having the best ever performance out on the road. I have seen you experienced guys write about it on the forums mentioning that it is common to always feel a bit tired and yet on race day be able to hit good performance levels. So this was a new experience for me, but when I got up to that point I remembered what you guys have posted in the past about feeling fatigued and yet performing well.

    What you experienced guys post (minus one particular contributor) gives me insight as to what one could potentially experience in a long training block along with many other helpful insights. Managing the load seems like the biggest challenge of all training aspects. Finding that fine line of training hard enough to stimulate and not so hard that you annihilate.
     
  17. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Felt, I think you have put your finger on one of the more difficult aspects of serious cycling training. With the tools in WKO+ and with the benefit of some great metrics developed by Andy Coggan, it is relatively easy to measure one's fitness throughout the power/duration curve and to plan a training ride to target any specific aspect of fitness (e.g., aerobic power). But, managing total training volume and training stress for optimal results and avoidance of injuries or mental burnout is much more complex and difficult. The performance management tools of WKO+ have made the process infinitely more doable, but this is the area where one should either invest a lot of time to understand the principles and data or get a coach.

    Personally, I use the Notes field of WKO+ to record anything "unusual" about my ride, especially anything unusual about how my body felt. I have been seriously riding long enough that I have my own leading indicators to excessive stress (e.g., a twinge of pain in my glutes), so I always note anything unusual with those. I don't note anything that can be derived from the data because I have tools to do that (e.g., minutes and TSS by training schema level, rate of drop in HR following a hard segment, etc.). I limit my comments to stuff that I feel on or after the ride that won't be apparent from the numbers. The current version of WKO+ provides a second notes field (Workout Goal), but I have to confess I have yet to enter anything in it, largely because I have my ride file parsing application.
     
  18. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Thanks RDO
    I forget to use those description boxes within WKO.

    I just looked back at my WKO calendar and saw that I had entered only a few times. I am going to get into the habit from now on to enter anything significant (illness, injury, life stress, attitude, etc.) in the "Description" box or the "Post Activity Comments" box for a faster view. My weekend rides I usually detail out pretty good on the blog with data and ride info, but I am missing all the weekday training comments and descriptions.
     
  19. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Basically, I find the notes field most helpful when I almost never use it. So, I never use it for blog type entries. Rather, I use it to be able to quickly find a ride that was unusual especially in terms of how I felt physically during or after the ride. I would say I use it for maybe one out of 50 rides. A typical entry would be something like, "Twinge of pain in right glute today." Almost everything else I want to know about the ride I can derive from the ride file itself.
     
  20. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    You might read the following article about science and proving theories.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304388004577531270272951132.html?grcc=c46ebd2d711826ce662e1efe6f98f958Z3ZhpgeZ0Z940Z200Z112Z2&mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_lifestyle&grcc2=f15fbed3be73803a1b426ee853b23e3a~1342904750605~18f3b45caef80572d421f68a979bd6dc~7dc534f3-aa4f-4a2c-b37e-e3ffdb55d6d0~1342904477193~3~2~0~0~0~940~200~112~0~2~

    You seem to have failed to provide any proof that NP, TSS and all are valid.

    There is no need for me to prove anything. You claim no one can do 300TSS/day for 90 days. The burden is on you. You seem to shirk that burden.
     
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