NP viewable when riding...

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by tomUK, May 29, 2012.

  1. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    It is your opinion that Andy is a fraud. Since there is not a single person on this entire forum who seems to agree, I believe the burden is on you to prove your statement. You have an uphill battle though because I am pretty sure most people think you are a total idiot. I think you would argue with Newton about gravity if he were alive and on this forum. You give old people all over the world a bad image, I use to think people got wiser with age, if that was the case for you, I would hate to see how clueless you were 20 years ago.
     


  2. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    RDO, there is another phenomenon that I have experienced on something like 6 out 10 on the training rides the day after having a bad day or day where I struggled where I have a much better day following. I have seen some experienced folk here mention having a good day after having a bad day on the bike.

    I had a really bad day on a group ride yesterday and really struggled from mile one to the finish. I could feel fatigue in my glutes and hamstrings on any incline or when approaching my FT. In the last 5 miles I dropped off the back and could not hold their pace even though they were not really pushing hard. I expected this to happen because I had some exceptional L4 intervals last week. I told my friend in a pre-ride email not to worry if I drop off the back.

    Today I will go to the MUP with the TT bike and do a 2 x 60 at the top of L3 if the crowd is not bad. I could very well have a good day today based on this trend of doing better after a bad day. (I must say I doubt I could hold L4 for 2 x 60 on any of those Sunday's but based on perception the legs just feel much better and more responsive after a bad day on the bike)

    This phenomenon only seems apply for the following day because the days following the good day I am back to fighting to hold L4 in the intervals. And I will say that it is 6 out of 10 because there are times when I have a bad Saturday and a bad Sunday. So it is not predictable, but for me it is looking at trends and try to settle in on a routine.

    My training philosophy coming from a successful lifting career was to stay on schedule and try to be consistent week to week knowing full well there will be good and bad training days. All we had was a training diary and not guides like WKO to help us so it was a matter of looking at trends and it takes weeks of consistent attempts to start recognizing a trend - good or bad. That being the case I look forward to see how today unfolds on the 2 x 60's as far as if my legs feel good in the effort.
     
  3. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

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    Debate is fine and it is also fine to disagree. This however is not the place for name calling of judging personal character.
     
  4. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    So it played out just like the past trend. I had a rough Saturday or at least my legs felt very fatigued from a good training week and then yesterday oddly felt very good after about 5 miles into the 2 x 60 effort. This morning just like past trends my legs feel utterly trashed. This evening I will do an active recovery because that seems to work out for me better than just taking the day completely off. As a recreational cyclist and still needing many more years of training and adaptation I am pretty well settled on what I can handle at this very moment, but it took months of trial and error to get that schedule worked out and understand what I can earnestly handle week to week.

    For those thinking that a back to back 300 TSS ride is doable I say, "kudos to you." For me I am very far from being able to handle that type of load. Another thing I have learned even if my legs are having an exceptional recovery week, my crotch and rump begin to suffer the saddle time after "x" amount of hours of training. I cannot imagine what festering sores I would have after 90 days of daily 300 TSS efforts.

    My current typical load that I seem to be able to cope with is a very humble amount. It is my hope that as the years go by I will be able to tolerate more.

    Saturday - 240 to 300 TSS (long endurance ride has a mix of intensities from the majority in L2/L3, but sometimes good blocks of L4 and brief match burning moments)
    Sunday - ~140 TSS (120 minute effort)
    Monday - ~40 to 60 TSS (active recovery / L2)
    Tuesday - ~90 TSS (L4 intervals usually 2 x 20's, the remaining hour at L3 to L2)
    Wednesday - ~80 TSS (L3 for 60 to 70 minutes)
    Thursday - ~90 TSS (L4 intervals usually 2 x 20's, the remaining hour at L3 to L2)
    Friday - day off

    It seems like someone that can rack up 300 TSS consecutive days could easily post that up to Strava, Garmin Connect, Training Peaks or other site. I have very humble numbers compared to most people and my data is available to see. I feel like being honest about where I am and what I can do is important to my progress.

    _____________

    On another note I had a bad technology weekend. My Saturday ride was 67 miles and I would guess 57 miles of that was in a steady rain. I am not sure if it was relative to the wet conditions, but my Garmin 800 failed. It continued to collect data, but the touch screen stopped responding. Garmin has always been really good as far as customer service. I contacted them with an email after the ride and a technician responded within an hour. This was about 5 pm Saturday evening so I was surprised that I received a response because their website says they respond during the weekday working hours. I tried what the technician suggested late that evening and still no luck so I sent a reply. Sunday morning another technician responded and asked if I wanted to setup a RMA (return material authorization) and I replied yes. Late Sunday evening I received two emails with the RMA and approval to return under warranty since the unit is 9 months old. I will shipping it out today. I have always been blessed with great customer service at Garmin.

    So Sunday I thought no problem because I can use my iphone/wahoo ANT+ adapter case to collect the power meter data. At the start of the 2 x 60 effort it appeared that the phone and app were seeing the power meter, but since I did not have a mount on the bike I stuck it in my back jersey pocket. At the end of the ride I find out it did not collect data from the power meter.

    Argh!!!....contingency backup plan to a any potential Garmin 800 failure failed. The data is blank except for time and map. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/202061739

    Saturday - 67 Miles, visibility was tough in the rain resulting in lower sustainable power output, but my legs and glutes felt like crap anyway so I don't think I would have done much better even if it had not been raining. This route is typically a little over 3 hours, but ended up taking us 4 hours. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/201517284

    After seeing my humble power output no one should feel ashamed of posting data. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  5. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    It seems a little strange that you would have rough Saturdays with this schedule. I would expect you to be tired on Sundays due to the high TSS on Saturday. Are you also lifing? If so, which days and how much? If you're not lifting, I don't understand the cause of your fatigue on Saturdays.
     
  6. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    Absolutely agree with this... AOG has failed to provide any evidence of his claims. In my view, AC has presented a theory, tested his hypothesis on numerous levels, from us forumites to the Pro Tour, and found general acceptance of his theory. Power files have been posted from documented and highly controlled events which support the hypothesis. I have yet to see any credible source, i.e. someone not hawking a competing device or training system, post any contravening evidence that AC is off his rocker,or out in left field with his hypothesis. Confirmation bias certainly exists in the scientific community, but is normally rooted out when others try to replicate the results. you prove a theory wrong by demonstrating it is wrong, not simply by saying so. So far, we have one guy claiming, and only claiming with no support that the theory is invalid. Talking to AOG is like trying to talk politics with someone of the opposite persuasion.

    DAL
     
  7. dkrenik

    dkrenik Member

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    Quote: RapDaddyo
    but I have to confess I have yet to enter anything in it, largely because I have my ride file parsing application.

    I don't check as often as I used to. Is this app available?

    Dave
     
  8. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Actually, when one studies the underlying concept of NP, it is the observed relationship between blood lactate and power, which is approximated by the 4th power algorithm. Actually, the true fit is 3.9, but is rounded to 4 for simplicity. Blood lactate is (currently) the best measurable response to training intensity, so it makes sense to base NP on this relationship. Also, the physiological response that produces lactic acid and, hence, blood lactate supports the use of the blood lactate/training intensity relationship. TSS and IF are both derived from the NP computation, so that relationship is at the heart of all three measures. Anyone is free to run his or her own tests to prove that his or her response does not fit the 4th power algorithm, but I have yet to see it. Maybe AOG wants to post his blood lactate/power curve to demonstrate that he is super-human. A trainer, a little needle prick and a blood lactate measurement device shouldn't be too much to handle. This should work nicely: http://www.novabiomedical.com/products/consumer_meters/lactate_plus.php
     
  9. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Yes, and why I have been in agreement with those giving advice for cycling competitors to not lift and/or to remain cycling specific. It makes it really challenging to in the area of figuring out recovery. There have been weeks where I did not train legs and that Saturday I would be in the front of the group tearing it up, but those times have been rare because I am very consistent with training and rarely miss days. I trained legs this morning, but not quite as hard. Based on how they feel right now Tuesday evening L4's are going to be tough.

    I train legs on Monday's. What a real challenge because my legs get higher TSS on the weekend and then I go in and train legs fairly heavy on Monday morning. It is weird that I can hit and hold higher wattage on Monday evening if I wanted because the effect of lifting and DOMS starts to take effect by Tuesday and sometimes can get worse as the week goes. I train my legs hard enough in the gym that I can only train them once a week. Then they really never get recovered because as the DOMS starts to get worse I am starting to try to hold L4 intervals. On Thursday's I am trying to do 2 x 20 in L4 and lately I am trying to hit mid to upper range of L4. By Friday my legs are not as sore in daily living circumstances and I feel normal until I approach threshold on hills or trying to keep up with a group hill sprint or fast paceline at times on Saturday's.

    I agree that if you just look at the cycling training it doesn't look like much.

    My lifting schedule (even though legs are trained once a week the other body parts sharing recovery time with cycling I imagine slows down recovery rate)

    Monday - Legs
    Tuesday - Chest
    Wednesday - Back
    Thursday - Shoulders
    Friday - Arms
     
  10. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I guess I could have simply answered.

    Yes, I am lifting on Monday and it makes a mess of things /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
     
  11. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    The idea behind training hard for short periods is that it leads to a different set of physiological adaptations over pure volume. A set of adaptations required for racing. Not racing, and not needing these particular adaptations may lead one to believe they don't exist, or leave one failing to understand their importance in racing, regardless of the volume of training undertaken. It seems the pro's have all the time in the world to ride, but they still do their intervals.
     
  12. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    The current issue is that acoggan has said that 300TSS/day for 90 days is impossible. He made the claim without any supporting evidence at all. It appears he keeps adding conditions to his claim. acoggan has also said that no individual can provide proof that his statement is wrong. Something about that person being an exception. Something about extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary proof.

    I don't see that "ride data" would be extraordinary proof. I am only an ordinary person. I only have ordinary proof.

    ----

    If acoggan wants proof, he will need to say what he wants proof of and what proof he wants. acoggan has failed to do either.

    ---

    acoggan has said there are no peer reviewed papers on NP or the related issues. That makes it a religion. Not science. When he brings NP and related issues into the realm of science I will provide proof that they are wrong.

    ---

    As for acoggan being a fraud. I think that acoggan making claims that are unsupported and demanding that others support their positions with proof shows he is a fraud. He has made several other claims that I and others have called him on. In all cases he fails to provide any support for his position.
     
  13. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I am sorry. Are you acoggan?

    Perhaps you could give us some supporting evidence that people who have the time to train as much as they want average 75% IF.

    ----

    acoggan makes a big deal of the "difference" between .75 IF and 75% IF. He does that to berate others. To make them appear ignorant. A quick google search finds the wikipedia page on percent. The page says that .75 and 75% are the same.

    acoggan knows they are the same. He makes the big deal because most of you want to believe him. That lets him berate others. He is fraud. He is a bully. He is a little boy.
     
  14. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    Do I need to be to be acoggan to post on on these forums?

    I made a statement about intensity. I haven't made any claims about IF.

    As far as supporting evidence you will probably want to manage your own requirements for similar requests.

    You should tell us why riding hard and riding easy manifest the same adaptive changes. It sounds like that is what you are saying.
     
  15. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    When his posts first started up, I was just a newbie cyclist, inspired by the "its killing me" thread and didn't really know any better, so being the engineer that I am, I dug into the background you mention, and formed the same conclusion. The premise seems reasonable, the results posted here and elsewhere seem to bear it out as a reasonable training method. No one has presented anything than anecdote to further the contrary position when were it as invalid as AOG claims, it would be easy to debunk. Now, having said that, I'm sure you could, as many did before power meters, accomplish the same training benefit with some other measurement, if only PE. I personally have always preferred to measure as closely as possible the direct result of something and eliminate as many inferential relationships as possible. Power is the direct result of the effort applied by the cyclist and as such it makes the most sense to me.
     
  16. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Kudos to you for investigating the underlying premise of these algorithms. I have personally tested the NP algorithm in many ways, basically with many combinations of variable power training rides. I have a special interest in the validity of the computation because I use it as a basis of developing optimal variable power strategies for known courses with forecast wind conditions. At least for me, the predictive accuracy of NP is amazing. My only regret is that Andy is wasting time responding to AOG's comments rather than doing what I wish he would do -- help me develop an accurate representation of the two parts of anaerobic work capacity and viable anaerobic recovery algorithms for each. This would be new and valuable knowledge and I could use it in my models./img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
     
  17. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    The discussion has nothing to do with training with power. The discussion has to do with the concepts of NP, TSS, and others that are related.

    You say there has been no contrary evidence. How is this:

    acoggan has posted that NP is not valid for times under 20 minutes. NP gets overestimated until one gets rid of a lot of glycogen.

    Now, acoggan is saying that TSS achieved below 75% IF is not the same as TSS achieved above 75% IF. (It is really hard to know what his objection is. He seems to be unwilling to share what TSS is modeling except that it is "some process" that is not glycogen depletion.

    (A current anecdote: There is a current thread I read earlier today on this site. It seems some people think you need to be doing L4 for at least 8 minutes before it becomes L4. If so, NP of the first 8 minutes of any L4 interval is over estimated. And nothing special about L4 so every interval is overestimated. And that is why you are all above average.)

    ---

    You seem to think that anecdotes are bad. But both acoggan and Andy Coggan offer less than anecotes. Just a story that was concocted in a couple hours. acoggan says his theory cannot be disproven. It would be easy to disprove any of his claims if he wouild say what is necessary for him to accept a proof.

    ---

    I find it amazing that people tell anecdotes about their training and make claims that they cannot maintain 300TSS for many rides. Going from 15-20 hours a week to 35 hours a week is a big step, but 7% (more riding time) a month gets you there in a year. Not too many people set high TSS as a goal. They simply want high FTP. But ...

    Joe Friel has a new commentary out. He thinks that more riding time produces higher FTP. (You can find his site.)

    ---

    So what proof do you want.
     
  18. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    The section of my post that you quoted began with the pronoun - you. A reference to acoggan.

    ---

    But the section of my post that you quoted was about IF. I made no comments about intensity.

    ---

    This thread is about TSS and the ability to do 300TSS/day for 90 days. It has nothing to do with riding hard and riding easy manifesting the same adaptive changes.

    ---

    You seem to be operating under misconceptions about how people with time train.

    Looking at a 54 mile ride segemnt (part of my 108 mile, 150, and 200 mile routes) I used to do:

    Miles 1-10 have a target (power, time, whatever your preference).
    Miles 10-15 easy because of traffic.
    Miles 15-25 have a target.
    5 minute break at 25 miles.
    Miles 25-32 have a target.
    Miles 32-40 easy because of traffic.
    Miles 40-45 have a target.
    Miles 45-54 have a tarfget.
    5 minute break at 25 miles.

    So three 20-30 minute efforts and two shorter efforts for every 50 miles or so. Some flats. Some a series of hills. And I still have to get home.

    Miles 40-42 on the way out were interesting. First mile was a steep climb. Get the heart rate above LT. Second mile was flat. Keep it there.

    Miles 32-25 on the way home, on my 108 mile route, were always interesting. Flat, wide road, no traffic. 54/13. Get it up. Keep it up for 20-25 minutes. If I did it right, it was a long 25 mles home.

    When that ride became easy I had adapted in every way possible.
     
  19. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    AOG, do you ride with a power meter? A lot of your ride characterizations sound like those of riders who do not ride with a power meter.
     
  20. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    That is what I have been saying all along. I am certain he has never used a PM and it is so funny. His explanation of NP as it relates to 8 minutes of an L4 interval shows that he really does not understand NP, he just knows he does not like it, lol. Keep posting AOG, all you do is display just how big of an idiot you are and provide me with entertainment. I don't even care about the whole 300 TSS thing, I don't think you own a PM and I am calling you out. Post a file of the ride described above, as you have obviously done it enough that you should have at least one. Quit acting like a "little boy" and put up or shut up!
     
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