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Discussion in 'Power Training' started by tomUK, May 29, 2012.

  1. awilki01

    awilki01 New Member

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    I've said it before, but I think one of you are AOG having a blast with the rest of us. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
     


  2. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I always have fun when people present religion as science.

    The believers demand scientific proof that their religion is false.

    The non-believers refuse to use science to give cedability to religion.

    ---

    I have bicycled with my granddaughter 3 days recently. Showed her several routes that are suitable for her. Tomorow at her request we go up the big hill for the second time.
     
  3. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Once again you are confused: I have never offered any training plans, based on either average or normalized power.

    Furthermore, I have repeatedly made the point that the training levels I have described are descriptive, not prescriptive. Hence, there are no conflicts even in training plans offered by others that rely on my classification schema.
     
  4. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    1. Agreed.

    2. Others (e.g., the sports scientists w/ the Australian Institute of Sport) disagree with you.

    3. So which is it: 300 TSS/d for 1 mo, or a CTL of 300 TSS/d?
     
  5. lanierb

    lanierb New Member

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    Is that walking the dog or what, because I for one don't believe you do any proper cycling, let alone anything resembling training. It's high time you were banned from this board.
     
  6. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I never mentioned "plans." I said you promoted training based on ... Those are different.

    Yes, your levels have descriptions associated with them. Identical descriptions have much different power levels. Understandable for short durations. But 75% IF v 55% average power seems a bit too big of difference for long durations where average power and IF tend to be the same. There is a problem. Get over it.
     
  7. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    So you understand this I will type slowly and move my lips as I type.

    While I have data that shows to me I can do 300TSS for 90 days, the data may not include 90 consecutive days of 300TSS at 75% IF. You might reject the data on those grounds. (I had no idea at the time I was collecting data that it would be used in this manner.)

    acoggan made the claim that no one can do 300TSS for 90 days. He has now added the 75% IF. It seems foolish to present data that disproves a claim until the claim is settled and the type of proof required is settled.

    Most importantly while you might want proof, acoggan is the guy who made the claim and the only one I need to present data too. I would rather produce data that he agrees is sufficient than to have him sit by and reject data I give to you.
     
  8. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I believe that Andy Coggan has a business relationship with Training Peaks. There are a lot of his papers there. As I recall he has some connection with PowerAgent the software that Saris provides. acoggan made a comment that PowerAgent used to compute NP wrong.

    It might be more proper to say Andy Coggan is a shill for them or they are shills for him.
     
  9. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    ???

    I thought your claim was no one could do 300TSS each day for 90 days. I never mentioned CTL except to make fun of it. (I know I make fun of TSS also.)
     
  10. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    I have licensed my ideas to TrainingPeaks, for which they pay me a royalty of $1 per copy of WKO+ sold.

    I have no relationship with Saris (although back in 1999 I was a beta tester for the Tune Corporation, the company that originally developed and marketed the PowerTap hub).
     
  11. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Confused again I see...

    What I have stated is that I have never seen a CTL of >200 TSS/d (which, given the time constant, would reflect an average daily TSS of >200 TSS/d for approximately 3 mo). What you claimed in the post to which I responded was that you could do 300 TSS/d for 1 mo. Hence, the reason that I asked for clarification.
     
  12. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    There is no problem (or conflict, really). The training levels are descriptive, not prescriptive, and are based on the average power expressed as a percentage of FTP. It is possible to state the typical IF, i.e., normalized power expressed as a decimal fraction of FTP, normally found when training at each level, but there can be exceptions.
     
  13. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Description of a book from Amazon.com:

    In only a few short years, power meters have become an essential training tool for amateur and pro cyclists and triathletes. The first edition of Training and Racing with a Power Meter was largely responsible for popularizing what was once an arcane technology understood by only a few elite coaches and trainers. Now the updated and revised second edition provides significant updates on technology, software tools, training protocols, and workouts, making the benefits of power-based training available to everyone. The new edition also includes specific information for triathletes—the fastest-growing segment in endurance sports—including a complete triathlon training plan. Other significant updates include reviews of the latest hardware, refinements and additions to training plans, additional case studies, more on monitoring fitness and chronic training loads, and revised and clarified artwork, charts and tables throughout. Training and Racing with a Power Meter, 2nd Ed., will continue to be the definitive guide to the most important training tool ever developed for endurance sports

    You are an author. There is a training plan. I have not read the book, but ...
     
  14. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    You do appear to be confused. I remarked to bgoetz that he should be able to do 300TSS/day for a month.

    Personally, I can do 300TSS for as long as I am paid to do so. I believe you said that 90 days of 300TSS would be sufficient to disprove your claim that is stated somewhere in this thread. (The details of the claim seems to be a bit cloudy. At first it was TSS>200 for an unspecified period of time. Then .75 IF was added. Now, we have CTL>200TSS/day. I am not complaining, but this is why I will not provide any proof until the details are settled.)
     
  15. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    "While I have data that shows to me I can do 300TSS for 90 days, the data may not include 90 consecutive days of 300TSS at 75% IF".

    Let's put this statment to the test a little... I thought some perspective might be useful

    300 TSS is equal to 3 hours at 1.0IF or 33MPH for 100 miles
    300 TSS is equal to 4.15hrs at .85IF, or 24MPH for 100miles
    300 TSS is equal to 5.33hrs at .75IF or 18.75MPH for 100 miles
    300 TSS is equal to 7.10hrs at .65IF or 14MPH for 100 miles
    300 TSS is equal to 9.91hrs at .55IF or 10.1MPH for 100 miles

    Day in - Day out for 90 days --- 9000 miles in those 90 days -
    (100 miles is an arbitrary distance used just to create a speed reference)

    If you've got data that shows you can do 90 days of 300 TSS rides at any intensity between those above, I say put it up, or shut up. Ignoring all the debate over your belief in the power training methodology, the realistic implications of your claims clearly demonstrate the sheer lunacy of your position.

    DAL
     
  16. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Haha, I already said that I could not do 300TSS for 10 days straight. I guess despite all that I have accomplished on a bike I will never be the cyclists thst AOG is (insert sarcasm). Like I said before, I doubt there is a cyclist on the planet who could complete that training load, you have no perspective of what 300TSS is if you think differently.
     
  17. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    It is funny, when you are not specific with what you are saying, but speak in terms that someone who has some basic understanding of the fundementals (i.e. anyone who has actually used it) AOG does not get it, it goes right over his head. Which to me is further proof that he is just a troll who has not once used a PM. Like clubbing baby seals, AOG. You make it way to easy, I feel like we are playing a game of tee ball.
     
  18. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    You apparently missed the emphasis I placed on "I", even though I bolded and italicized it for you.
     
  19. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Again, you are clearly confused.

    1. While the units of CTL are TSS/d, CTL is calculated as an exponentially-weighted moving average with a default time constant of 42 d. That means CTL primarily (87.5%) reflects what you have done in the last ~3 mo, i.e., it is the long-term consequences of a very high training load that are the issue here.

    2. I have, in fact, made no hard-and-fast claims with respect to maximum possible CTL - merely related the observation that I've never seen any racing cyclist achieve a CTL of >200 TSS/d. (Emphasis on "racing" because the variability of such training - which typically leads to an overall average of IF of 0.75 of above - tends to limit maximum CTL.) This is, as I have noted, consistent with what you'd expect based on, e.g., the maximum possible long-term energy expenditure that appears tolerable by factory workers, etc.

    However, this is not to say that somebody, somewhere, couldn't decide to go out their door and rack up century-ride-after-century-ride at a leisurely-to-steady pace
     
  20. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    I can see it now.. THE AOG Challenge - the ULTIMATE CENTURY - 90 days, 9000 miles... They probably won't have to print many T Shirts for that one.
     
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