NP viewable when riding...

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by tomUK, May 29, 2012.

  1. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Below .10 IF? On what planet?

    On reviewing actual data, not la-la-land made up and misunderstood gobbledegook, even when I was out whistling dixie for 400km during a brevet the IF for the ride was 0.659

    Work: 7248 kJ
    TSS: 586.2 (intensity factor 0.659)
    Norm Power: 178
    VI: 1.19
    Pw:HR: n/a
    Pa:HR: n/a
    Distance: 248.364 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 559 149 watts
    Cadence: 29 203 76 rpm
    Speed: 0 40.3 18.4 mph

    Taking things to even more extremes:

    Work: 9145 kJ
    TSS: 651.2 (intensity factor 0.537)
    Norm Power: 145
    VI: 1.29
    Pw:HR: n/a
    Pa:HR: n/a
    Distance: 374.676 mi
    Min Max Avg
    Power: 0 456 113 watts
    Cadence: 29 174 72 rpm
    Speed: 0 43 16.7 mph

    If you know racers that train at a lower intensity that I ride for 600km in a day - even with a late evening start and riding through the night - then there's even more of a case of you producing even more data to backup your claims.
     


  2. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Oh do stop spoiling things with actual data.
     
  3. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    It's not an original phrase I will admit and runs along side "Hmmm" as one oft used by Robert Chung.


    This thread kind of reminds me of the old party conversation game, where you tell a completely plausible story to some unsuspecting people, but as the evening wears on you introduce more elements, each slightly less plausible than the ones before, and see how long it takes for someone to tweak (sort of a mental frog boiling exercise). But the story has to be totally ad lib to start with.
     
  4. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    I am told some racers train by taking a day or two off a week. That is much lower intensity than you rode at.

    You can search through the comments on this site to get all the anecdotes you want. A lot of people seem to ride 4 or 5 days a week.

    ---

    I ride with my granddaughter from time to time. Those rides seem to below your intensity. To be a racer I just need money to pay for a license and entry fee. I guess I can get proof. I usually don't save data from those rides, but it seems I could provide proof.
     
  5. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Did I forget to square something again. ;) 900TSS/day is still an absurd claim for acoggan.
     
  6. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    In any case, we now have this stupid claim of Andy Coggan's that racers train with an average IF above .75.   24 hours/day * .75 IF *100 = 1800 TSS/day. (I count the zeros.)   Most racers are below .10 IF. I don't know if you are really this obtuse or you just play a complete moron here but 900 isnt right either. If you are going to challenge someone, you should at least understand the math involved. In any case, you provide a great example of why pure averages are in many cases totally meaningless in the analysis of data with a wide range of value and why in the practice of scientific endeavors, data is frequently time normalized. In my world if you don't do this correctly, things blow up. BTW, IF and TSS apply only during the training duration on the bike, not the entire day. You have evidently confused your bodybug for a power meter. No wonder you claim to have data at 300 TSS per day, do the math wrong and you can get any number you want.
     
  7. fluro2au

    fluro2au New Member

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    Check it out AOG....Swampy provided actual data.



    No you can't, no you haven't, never you will........LOL

    I think you are kidding yourself more than you trying to kid anyone else....That seems to be a fact at this stage
     
  8. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Software computes TSS and IF. I find them worthless. So worthless I have no desire to get the formula correst.

    I understand that IF is based on riding time. Some people suggested that one needs to count zeros. I count time coasting down hills, stoped lights and store breaks. I even count the time I sit under the shower at the park on hot days. If you are going to count some of the zeros, might as well count them all.

    ---

    Perhaps you don't understand the history of Andy Coggan's claim. His initial claim was related to the inability to do more than 1400-1500 TSS per week for long periods of time. One would think my claim of 2100 TSS would be difficult enough, but I said 300TSS per day. Much harder. Not hard enough for acoggan. H eseems to want 300 CTL (about 350TSS). Still not hard enough. He wants a daily time limit. of about 6.5 hours.

    Now you see how TSS/week has become IF. Not really fair, but acoggan has yet to say what data he wants.
     
  9. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    To race requires paying for a license and entrance fee. Training is optional.

    Most training plans include recovery days and recovery weeks - under 55% FTP average power. Under .75 IF.

    My objection to .75 IF was that it was a NEW requirement. (see post above for a history)

    ---

    While I accept your data as something you did, I am not sure that anyone would accept the same type of data as prrof that I can do 300 TTS/day for the required number of days.

    Just to clesar up a point here. Would you post your weekly totals that cever the 2 rides above? I am interested in the number of rides and your total TSS for the weeks. Might as well include the IF for each ride during the weeks.
     
  10. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    Yes! Looks like I checked this thing at just the right time for my daily dose of unbelevabally confused and stupid crap AOG says. As a bonus he seems to be getting more confused as this thing rolls on. Day = made, thanks AOG!
     
  11. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    Andy's point all along has been, not to put words in his mouth, but his point has been that in his experience, racing cyclists, training to race, cannot do many weeks in a row of 1400-1500 TSS, when that TSS level is attained during race training (defined as 0.75IF and greater). Your claim is that you do this routinely, with consecutive hours of 150%/0% intervals, with multiple long rides per week or whatever scenario you create for your next post. Bottom line is that none of us believe you can do anything close to 300 TSS per day repeatedly for 30, 60 or 90 days and we're calling you out... challenging you to prove it. None of us really care whether your IF is .55 or .85, whether you bang out consecutive100 mile days or intense intervals on the trainer. Just put up or STFU.
     
  12. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I think I am changing over from being annoyed by the troll to now be entertained by the incoherent ramblings.
    Wow! the postings by AOG are taking us on a journey that makes a Tim Burton movie seem normal.
     
  13. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Considering that 300TSS is 300TSS regardless of how it is done (at least that is the theory that Andy Coggan promotes). 300TSS at .75 IF is the same as 300TSS at .5 IF.

    acoggan seems to be confused. As do you.

    ----

    If you want me to do work for you, the price is $1000/day. So $90K.

    "put up of STFU"
     
  14. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    So I guess you don't believe the reports of people doing 200+miles a day for a year. They have daily logs, sealed odometers, witnesses. Real proof. Much more proof than Andy Coggan has fro NP, TSS and all.

    You really should indicate what type of proof you want. Otherwise I will not know what to provide.
     
  15. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    Once again, and I'll say it slowly for you...It is not about what someone else can or did (in the case of Tommy Godwin), but rather that you claim you in fact do so regularly. The fact that his record was set 1940 and remains unbroken, might lead one to consider him the exception rather than the rule. Again, though, this is about what You claim you can do, not anyone else.
     
  16. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    It has nothing to do with what you think I can do.

    It has to do with Andy Coggan's claim that no one can do it.

    ---

    I guess that your belief that I cannot do it would make my doing it show one does not need to be exceptional. But that is my point.
     
  17. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    And your point is WRONG, which is what everyone has been debating with you about, Cogan included. You are just so dense and tunnel visioned that you don't get it!
     
  18. bgoetz

    bgoetz Member

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    I would consider myself well trained and in real good fitness. At this point I have logged over 6k miles for the year, so I have built a considerable amount of endurance as well. I know my body pretty well, so I know that if I were to continually do back to back 300TSS rides I would reach a breaking point where I could not continue and it would be well before 90 days. Sure if I trained differently I could prolong the breaking point, but the point is doing so would put me in the minority with respect to even the well trained cyclist. So is it impossible for someone to do consecutive days of 300TSS no (no one ever said it was), unlikely yes. Which leads us to question your claim of being able to accomplish this task like it is simple enough as just having the time to do it. This coupled with other posts you have made makes you seem out of touch with what training stress really means, to the point where many if us question if you have ever even really trained on a bike.
     
  19. DAL1955

    DAL1955 New Member

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    [SIZE= 10pt]You made a point previously that you felt that 300 TSS was 300TSS regardless of how it was attained... On that topic, and I'm quite willing to be wrong here, but I don't think this is accurate and I don't believe Andy would advocate that 300 TSS rides occurring at opposite ends of the intensity spectrum are equal in all respects. They are equal with respect to the amount of adaptation they stimulate, but different in the type of adaptation that results. Training is about the specificity of the training and the application of that training to a specific event. Saying it as simply as I can, two 300 TSS rides will produce an equal amount of adaptation with respect to the manner in which the 300 TSS were acquired. For example, an ultra distance rider might acquire 300 TSS over 6-12 hours of riding where a track cyclist might acquire 300 TSS in 3-4 hours or less. While the amount of adaptation that would be inferred from each ride will be approximately equal, the type of adaptation will be different. The track cyclist will be better at what he does as will the distance cyclist, but neither will have improved substantially in the other's discipline. I'm sure there is a much more complicated explanation likely to do with the metabolic process involved, and maybe one of the smart guys here will explain it better.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=10.0pt]"While the Performance Manager is an extremely valuable tool for analyzing training on a macro scale, it is important to also consider things on a micro scale as well, i.e., the nature and demands of the individual training sessions that pr[/SIZE]oduce the daily TSS values. That is, the “composition” of training is just as important as the overall “dose”, and the usefulness and predictive ability of the Performance Manager obviously depends on the individual workouts being appropriately chosen and executed in light of the individual’s competition goals."[SIZE= 10pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt]Taking this a little farther, if you look at the entire concept of training with power, the concept was built around training cyclists for racing. The definitions imply that this type of training is to be done at an IF greater than 0.55, with most training between 0.75 and 0.85, and active recovery at IF below 0.55. Trying to fit extremes, like ultra long sessions at very low IF, or extremely short very high IF(greater than 1) into this methodology is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Every mathematical model has a range over which it is most reliable and when you operate it outside that range you will very likely get results that do not reflect reality. It doesn't mean the model is wrong, only that you utilized it improperly. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE= 10pt]Throughout the history of sport, there have been exceptional individuals, like Tommy Godwin to whom the traditional analysis really doesn't apply. There is a reason the BCF banned attempts to break his records... people died trying to mimic his achievements. He also had to learn to walk again after he set his record. [/SIZE]
     
  20. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    The whole sales pitch behind TSS, CLT, and ATL is that TSS is TSS regardless of the intensity. NP takes care of that. (For those who have never vistied the TrainingPeaks web site there is an interesting story about NP and TSS. It appears Hunter Allen asked Andy Coggan to come up with a "feature" that could be used to sell their power training plans and software. Andy Coggan came up with a "feature", NP and TSS, in either 2 hours or 2 days. Not important which. Andy Coggan is a shill for Training Peaks. You guys have been taken advantage of. The story was on the TrainingPeaks site at one time.)

    ---

    You seem to miss the fellow from the 70's who did 230 miles a day for a year. 42 years old. No job. Just went out to set the record. Not exceptional. He was riding further each day than the guys who did the first Race Across America. He certainly was close in ability to the racers who rode across the country. I think his daily ride was at least trainning level if not racing level.

    I don't know why you are so critical of my training program. You don't even know what it is. If I get paid to train at 75% on some scale, I ride at 75%. Currently I am trying to find out what acoggan wants me to do and how to pick up my pay check. (While I have been riding 4-5 hours in 100+ temperatures, I am cutting back to 2-3 hours. I don't get paid so there is no need to perform.)

    In any case if those guys are exceptional. When I can do the 300TSS stuff, you will claim I must be exceptional. Nothing will be proven.
     
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