Nutrient during pregnancy 'super-charges' brain

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by Diarmid Logan, Mar 12, 2004.

  1. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994771

    Nutrient during pregnancy 'super-charges' brain

    NewScientist.com news service

    Taking a nutrient called choline during pregnancy could
    "super-charge" children's brains for life, suggests a
    study in rats.

    Offspring born to pregnant rats given the supplement were
    known to be faster learners with better memories. But the
    new work, by Scott Swartzwelder and colleagues at Duke
    University Medical Center in North Carolina, US, shows this
    is due to having bigger brain cells in vital areas.

    Choline, a member of the vitamin B family, is found in egg
    yolks, liver and other meats - "exactly the kind of things
    people were told not to eat" due to their high cholesterol
    content, says Swartzwelder.

    He believes their results in the rats could translate to
    humans, and indeed the US Institute of Medicine added
    choline to the list of essential nutrients, particularly for
    pregnant women, in its 2003 recommendations.

    The implications of the study's findings are "potentially
    huge" Swartzwelder believes: "If it turns out that it's true
    in humans and can make people smarter their whole lives and
    forestall age-related memory decline - that's potentially a
    very exciting prospect."

    Behavioural studies have shown giving choline to pregnant
    rats improves learning and memory in their offspring. The
    pups also suffer significantly less from failing memories as
    they get old.

    However, it was not known whether choline's effects were on
    the general brain environment or whether it fundamentally
    changed the brain's cells.

    "Our study is the first time anyone has shown that
    prenatal choline supplementation actually changes the
    anatomy and physiology of single brain cells,"
    Swartzwelder told New Scientist. No adverse effects could
    be seen in the rats, he adds.

    The team gave pregnant rats three to four times their normal
    intake of choline for six days. Gestation lasts about 21
    days in rats, and the period during which the rats were fed
    extra choline roughly corresponds to the start of the third
    trimester in women.

    The pups born were raised to adulthood and then their brains
    were examined, in particular the hippocampus - the area of
    the brain critical for learning.

    This part of the brain was sliced in a way that preserved
    its internal circuitry and kept it alive. A tiny electrode
    was then used to recording the behaviour of each cell.

    The neurons of rats born to mothers given extra choline
    fired electrical signals more rapidly and for longer
    periods, indicating a capacity to communicate more easily.

    The team then injected a biological dye into the neurons to
    look at their shape and structure. The cells from rats
    receiving prenatal choline supplements were substantially
    bigger than those from rats that did not.

    "We are looking at consistent changes in the range of 20 to
    25 per cent," says Swartzwelder. "These are bigger cells
    with more dendrites, the areas of the cell specific to
    receiving incoming signals." He says the combined changes
    induced by choline in the physiology and anatomy of the
    brain cells would "hotwire" the system.

    The team does not know exactly how choline boosts brains,
    but it is known to contribute to the building of cell
    membranes during the embryo stage of development. "My bet is
    it has something to do this," Swartzwelder says.

    Previous work by Steven Zeiser at the University of North
    Carolina has shown choline alters a crucial gene by adding a
    methyl group on to it. This switches off the gene, CDKN-3,
    which usually inhibits cell division in the memory regions
    of the brain.

    There is little information on how much choline women
    currently take. "But don't be afraid of eggs," Swartzwelder
    suggests. "I used to eat a low fat diet - I've started
    eating eggs and I'm not even pregnant!"

    Journal reference: Journal of Neurophysiology (vol 91
    April issue)

    Shaoni Bhattacharya
     
    Tags:


  2. Rarmant

    Rarmant Guest

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14645379

    J Neurophysiol. 2004 Apr;91(4):1545-55. Epub 2003 Nov 26.

    Dietary prenatal choline supplementation alters postnatal
    hippocampal structure and function.

    Li Q, Guo-Ross S, Lewis DV, Turner D, White AM, Wilson WA,
    Swartzwelder HS.

    Neurobiology Research Laboratory, Veterans Affairs Medical
    Center, Durham 27705.

    Choline, a compound present in many foods, has recently
    been classified as an essential nutrient for humans.
    Studies with animal models indicate that the availability
    of choline during the prenatal period influences neural and
    cognitive development. Specifically, prenatal choline
    supplementation has been shown to enhance working memory
    and hippocampal long-term potentiation (LTP) in adult
    offspring. However, the cellular mechanisms underlying
    these effects remain unclear. Here we report that choline
    supplementation, during a 6-day gestational period, results
    in greater excitatory responsiveness, reduced slow
    afterhyperpolarizations (sAHPs), enhanced afterdepolarizing
    potentials (ADPs), larger somata, and greater basal
    dendritic arborization among hippocampal CA1 pyramidal
    cells studied postnatally in juvenile rats (20-25 days of
    age). These data indicate that dietary supplementation with
    a single nutrient, choline, during a brief, critical period
    of prenatal development, alters the structure and function
    of hippocampal pyramidal cells.

    PMID: 14645379

    On 12 Mar 2004 08:40:13 -0800, [email protected]
    (Diarmid Logan) wrote:

    >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994771
    >
    >Nutrient during pregnancy 'super-charges' brain
    >
    >NewScientist.com news service
    >
    >Taking a nutrient called choline during pregnancy could
    >"super-charge" children's brains for life, suggests a
    >study in rats.
    >
    >Offspring born to pregnant rats given the supplement were
    >known to be faster learners with better memories. But the
    >new work, by Scott Swartzwelder and colleagues at Duke
    >University Medical Center in North Carolina, US, shows this
    >is due to having bigger brain cells in vital areas.
    >
    >Choline, a member of the vitamin B family, is found in egg
    >yolks, liver and other meats - "exactly the kind of things
    >people were told not to eat" due to their high cholesterol
    >content, says Swartzwelder.
    >
    >He believes their results in the rats could translate to
    >humans, and indeed the US Institute of Medicine added
    >choline to the list of essential nutrients, particularly
    >for pregnant women, in its 2003 recommendations.
    >
    >The implications of the study's findings are "potentially
    >huge" Swartzwelder believes: "If it turns out that it's
    >true in humans and can make people smarter their whole
    >lives and forestall age-related memory decline - that's
    >potentially a very exciting prospect."
    >
    >Behavioural studies have shown giving choline to pregnant
    >rats improves learning and memory in their offspring. The
    >pups also suffer significantly less from failing memories
    >as they get old.
    >
    >However, it was not known whether choline's effects were on
    >the general brain environment or whether it fundamentally
    >changed the brain's cells.
    >
    >"Our study is the first time anyone has shown that
    >prenatal choline supplementation actually changes the
    >anatomy and physiology of single brain cells,"
    >Swartzwelder told New Scientist. No adverse effects could
    >be seen in the rats, he adds.
    >
    >The team gave pregnant rats three to four times their
    >normal intake of choline for six days. Gestation lasts
    >about 21 days in rats, and the period during which the rats
    >were fed extra choline roughly corresponds to the start of
    >the third trimester in women.
    >
    >The pups born were raised to adulthood and then their
    >brains were examined, in particular the hippocampus - the
    >area of the brain critical for learning.
    >
    >This part of the brain was sliced in a way that preserved
    >its internal circuitry and kept it alive. A tiny electrode
    >was then used to recording the behaviour of each cell.
    >
    >The neurons of rats born to mothers given extra choline
    >fired electrical signals more rapidly and for longer
    >periods, indicating a capacity to communicate more easily.
    >
    >The team then injected a biological dye into the neurons to
    >look at their shape and structure. The cells from rats
    >receiving prenatal choline supplements were substantially
    >bigger than those from rats that did not.
    >
    >"We are looking at consistent changes in the range of 20 to
    >25 per cent," says Swartzwelder. "These are bigger cells
    >with more dendrites, the areas of the cell specific to
    >receiving incoming signals." He says the combined changes
    >induced by choline in the physiology and anatomy of the
    >brain cells would "hotwire" the system.
    >
    >The team does not know exactly how choline boosts brains,
    >but it is known to contribute to the building of cell
    >membranes during the embryo stage of development. "My bet
    >is it has something to do this," Swartzwelder says.
    >
    >Previous work by Steven Zeiser at the University of North
    >Carolina has shown choline alters a crucial gene by adding
    >a methyl group on to it. This switches off the gene, CDKN-
    >3, which usually inhibits cell division in the memory
    >regions of the brain.
    >
    >There is little information on how much choline women
    >currently take. "But don't be afraid of eggs," Swartzwelder
    >suggests. "I used to eat a low fat diet - I've started
    >eating eggs and I'm not even pregnant!"
    >
    >Journal reference: Journal of Neurophysiology (vol 91
    >April issue)
    >
    >Shaoni Bhattacharya
     
  3. Rarmant

    Rarmant Guest

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14645379

    J Neurophysiol. 2004 Apr;91(4):1545-55. Epub 2003 Nov 26.

    Dietary prenatal choline supplementation alters postnatal
    hippocampal structure and function.

    Li Q, Guo-Ross S, Lewis DV, Turner D, White AM, Wilson WA,
    Swartzwelder HS.

    Neurobiology Research Laboratory, Veterans Affairs Medical
    Center, Durham 27705.

    Choline, a compound present in many foods, has recently
    been classified as an essential nutrient for humans.
    Studies with animal models indicate that the availability
    of choline during the prenatal period influences neural and
    cognitive development. Specifically, prenatal choline
    supplementation has been shown to enhance working memory
    and hippocampal long-term potentiation (LTP) in adult
    offspring. However, the cellular mechanisms underlying
    these effects remain unclear. Here we report that choline
    supplementation, during a 6-day gestational period, results
    in greater excitatory responsiveness, reduced slow
    afterhyperpolarizations (sAHPs), enhanced afterdepolarizing
    potentials (ADPs), larger somata, and greater basal
    dendritic arborization among hippocampal CA1 pyramidal
    cells studied postnatally in juvenile rats (20-25 days of
    age). These data indicate that dietary supplementation with
    a single nutrient, choline, during a brief, critical period
    of prenatal development, alters the structure and function
    of hippocampal pyramidal cells.

    PMID: 14645379

    On 12 Mar 2004 08:40:13 -0800, [email protected]
    (Diarmid Logan) wrote:

    >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994771
    >
    >Nutrient during pregnancy 'super-charges' brain
    >
    >NewScientist.com news service
    >
    >Taking a nutrient called choline during pregnancy could
    >"super-charge" children's brains for life, suggests a
    >study in rats.
    >
    >Offspring born to pregnant rats given the supplement were
    >known to be faster learners with better memories. But the
    >new work, by Scott Swartzwelder and colleagues at Duke
    >University Medical Center in North Carolina, US, shows this
    >is due to having bigger brain cells in vital areas.
    >
    >Choline, a member of the vitamin B family, is found in egg
    >yolks, liver and other meats - "exactly the kind of things
    >people were told not to eat" due to their high cholesterol
    >content, says Swartzwelder.
    >
    >He believes their results in the rats could translate to
    >humans, and indeed the US Institute of Medicine added
    >choline to the list of essential nutrients, particularly
    >for pregnant women, in its 2003 recommendations.
    >
    >The implications of the study's findings are "potentially
    >huge" Swartzwelder believes: "If it turns out that it's
    >true in humans and can make people smarter their whole
    >lives and forestall age-related memory decline - that's
    >potentially a very exciting prospect."
    >
    >Behavioural studies have shown giving choline to pregnant
    >rats improves learning and memory in their offspring. The
    >pups also suffer significantly less from failing memories
    >as they get old.
    >
    >However, it was not known whether choline's effects were on
    >the general brain environment or whether it fundamentally
    >changed the brain's cells.
    >
    >"Our study is the first time anyone has shown that
    >prenatal choline supplementation actually changes the
    >anatomy and physiology of single brain cells,"
    >Swartzwelder told New Scientist. No adverse effects could
    >be seen in the rats, he adds.
    >
    >The team gave pregnant rats three to four times their
    >normal intake of choline for six days. Gestation lasts
    >about 21 days in rats, and the period during which the rats
    >were fed extra choline roughly corresponds to the start of
    >the third trimester in women.
    >
    >The pups born were raised to adulthood and then their
    >brains were examined, in particular the hippocampus - the
    >area of the brain critical for learning.
    >
    >This part of the brain was sliced in a way that preserved
    >its internal circuitry and kept it alive. A tiny electrode
    >was then used to recording the behaviour of each cell.
    >
    >The neurons of rats born to mothers given extra choline
    >fired electrical signals more rapidly and for longer
    >periods, indicating a capacity to communicate more easily.
    >
    >The team then injected a biological dye into the neurons to
    >look at their shape and structure. The cells from rats
    >receiving prenatal choline supplements were substantially
    >bigger than those from rats that did not.
    >
    >"We are looking at consistent changes in the range of 20 to
    >25 per cent," says Swartzwelder. "These are bigger cells
    >with more dendrites, the areas of the cell specific to
    >receiving incoming signals." He says the combined changes
    >induced by choline in the physiology and anatomy of the
    >brain cells would "hotwire" the system.
    >
    >The team does not know exactly how choline boosts brains,
    >but it is known to contribute to the building of cell
    >membranes during the embryo stage of development. "My bet
    >is it has something to do this," Swartzwelder says.
    >
    >Previous work by Steven Zeiser at the University of North
    >Carolina has shown choline alters a crucial gene by adding
    >a methyl group on to it. This switches off the gene, CDKN-
    >3, which usually inhibits cell division in the memory
    >regions of the brain.
    >
    >There is little information on how much choline women
    >currently take. "But don't be afraid of eggs," Swartzwelder
    >suggests. "I used to eat a low fat diet - I've started
    >eating eggs and I'm not even pregnant!"
    >
    >Journal reference: Journal of Neurophysiology (vol 91
    >April issue)
    >
    >Shaoni Bhattacharya
     
  4. Pearl

    Pearl Guest

    "Diarmid Logan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994771
    >
    > Nutrient during pregnancy 'super-charges' brain
    >
    > NewScientist.com news service
    >
    > Taking a nutrient called choline during pregnancy could
    > "super-charge" children's brains for life, suggests a
    > study in rats.
    <..>
    > Choline, a member of the vitamin B family, is found in egg
    > yolks, liver and other meats - "exactly the kind of things
    > people were told not to eat" due to their high cholesterol
    > content, says Swartzwelder.
    <..>
    > There is little information on how much choline women
    > currently take. "But don't be afraid of eggs,"
    > Swartzwelder suggests. "I used to eat a low fat diet -
    > I've started eating eggs and I'm not even pregnant!"

    'Lecithin, found in foods such as eggs, soybeans, peanuts,
    and liver, is the predominant source of choline in the human
    diet. The normal intake of lecithin and choline has been
    estimated to be approximately 6 grams and 800 milligrams per
    day respectively. Commercial soy lecithin is defatted from
    soy bean oil to contain dominantly (± 95%) acetone insolubles-
    the most important of which are the phospholipids
    phosphatidylcholine, inositol and ethanolamine. Commercial
    lecithin is about 23% phosphatidylcholine (PC), and PC
    contains about 14% choline. Due to space limitations,
    choline sources like choline bitartrate and choline citrate
    have been used as the predominant source of choline in
    vitamin supplements. However, the increasing evidence that
    lecithin is a source of choline that may have benefits
    beyond simply being a choline source, has provided a reason
    for supplementing with both choline and lecithin itself. '
    http://www.aabhealth.com/lecithincholine.htm
     
  5. Katie

    Katie Guest

    "pearl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Diarmid Logan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:6d220a72.0403120840.14ad[email protected]...
    > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994771
    > >
    > > Nutrient during pregnancy 'super-charges' brain
    > >
    > > NewScientist.com news service
    > >
    > > Taking a nutrient called choline during pregnancy could
    > > "super-charge" children's brains for life, suggests a
    > > study in rats.
    > <..>
    > > Choline, a member of the vitamin B family, is found in
    > > egg yolks, liver and other meats - "exactly the kind of
    > > things people were told not to eat" due to their high
    > > cholesterol content, says Swartzwelder.
    > <..>
    > > There is little information on how much choline women
    > > currently take. "But don't be afraid of eggs,"
    > > Swartzwelder suggests. "I used to eat a low fat diet -
    > > I've started eating eggs and I'm not even pregnant!"
    >
    > 'Lecithin, found in foods such as eggs, soybeans, peanuts,
    > and liver, is the predominant source of choline in the
    > human diet. The normal intake of lecithin and choline has
    > been estimated to be approximately 6 grams and 800
    > milligrams per day respectively. Commercial soy lecithin
    > is defatted from soy bean oil to contain dominantly (±
    > 95%) acetone insolubles- the most important of which are
    > the phospholipids phosphatidylcholine, inositol and
    > ethanolamine. Commercial lecithin is about 23%
    > phosphatidylcholine (PC), and PC contains about 14%
    > choline. Due to space limitations, choline sources like
    > choline bitartrate and choline citrate have been used as
    > the predominant source of choline in vitamin supplements.
    > However, the increasing evidence that lecithin is a source
    > of choline that may have benefits beyond simply being a
    > choline source, has provided a reason for supplementing
    > with both choline and lecithin itself. '
    > http://www.aabhealth.com/lecithincholine.htm
    >
    mmm...yeah, i read that about lecithin a while back, and
    picked up some soy lecithin granules...emulsifiers, so
    you can mix em' into stuff that you're cooking for good
    memory stuff.
     
  6. Pearl

    Pearl Guest

    "katie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "pearl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Diarmid Logan" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > > message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9999-
    > > > 4771
    > > >
    > > > Nutrient during pregnancy 'super-charges' brain
    > > >
    > > > NewScientist.com news service
    > > >
    > > > Taking a nutrient called choline during pregnancy
    > > > could "super-charge" children's brains for life,
    > > > suggests a study in rats.
    > > <..>
    > > > Choline, a member of the vitamin B family, is found in
    > > > egg yolks, liver and other meats - "exactly the kind
    > > > of things people were told not to eat" due to their
    > > > high cholesterol content, says Swartzwelder.
    > > <..>
    > > > There is little information on how much choline women
    > > > currently take. "But don't be afraid of eggs,"
    > > > Swartzwelder suggests. "I used to eat a low fat diet -
    > > > I've started eating eggs and I'm not even pregnant!"
    > >
    > > 'Lecithin, found in foods such as eggs, soybeans,
    > > peanuts, and liver, is the predominant source of choline
    > > in the human diet. The normal intake of lecithin and
    > > choline has been estimated to be approximately 6 grams
    > > and 800 milligrams per day respectively. Commercial soy
    > > lecithin is defatted from soy bean oil to contain
    > > dominantly (± 95%) acetone insolubles- the most
    > > important of which are the phospholipids
    > > phosphatidylcholine, inositol and ethanolamine.
    > > Commercial lecithin is about 23% phosphatidylcholine
    > > (PC), and PC contains about 14% choline. Due to space
    > > limitations, choline sources like choline bitartrate and
    > > choline citrate have been used as the predominant source
    > > of choline in vitamin supplements. However, the
    > > increasing evidence that lecithin is a source of choline
    > > that may have benefits beyond simply being a choline
    > > source, has provided a reason for supplementing with
    > > both choline and lecithin itself. '
    > > http://www.aabhealth.com/lecithincholine.htm
    > >
    > mmm...yeah, i read that about lecithin a while back, and
    > picked up some soy lecithin granules...emulsifiers, so
    > you can mix em' into stuff that you're cooking for
    > good memory stuff.

    As lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures, it's best to
    take it 'raw'.
     
  7. the village idiot wrote:
    >>>>http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994771
    >>>>
    >>>>Nutrient during pregnancy 'super-charges' brain
    >>>>
    >>>>NewScientist.com news service
    >>>>
    >>>>Taking a nutrient called choline during pregnancy could
    >>>>"super-charge" children's brains for life, suggests a
    >>>>study in rats.
    >>>
    >>><..>
    >>>
    >>>>Choline, a member of the vitamin B family, is found in
    >>>>egg yolks, liver and other meats - "exactly the kind of
    >>>>things people were told not to eat" due to their high
    >>>>cholesterol content, says Swartzwelder.
    >>>
    >>><..>
    >>>
    >>>>There is little information on how much choline women
    >>>>currently take. "But don't be afraid of eggs,"
    >>>>Swartzwelder suggests. "I used to eat a low fat diet -
    >>>>I've started eating eggs and I'm not even pregnant!"
    >>>
    >>>'Lecithin, found in foods such as eggs, soybeans,
    >>>peanuts, and liver, is the predominant source of choline
    >>>in the human diet. The normal intake of lecithin and
    >>>choline has been estimated to be approximately 6 grams
    >>>and 800 milligrams per day respectively. Commercial soy
    >>>lecithin is defatted from soy bean oil to contain
    >>>dominantly (± 95%) acetone insolubles- the most important
    >>>of which are the phospholipids phosphatidylcholine,
    >>>inositol and ethanolamine. Commercial lecithin is about
    >>>23% phosphatidylcholine (PC), and PC contains about 14%
    >>>choline. Due to space limitations, choline sources like
    >>>choline bitartrate and choline citrate have been used as
    >>>the predominant source of choline in vitamin supplements.
    >>>However, the increasing evidence that lecithin is a
    >>>source of choline that may have benefits beyond simply
    >>>being a choline source, has provided a reason for
    >>>supplementing with both choline and lecithin itself. '
    >>>http://www.aabhealth.com/lecithincholine.htm
    >>>
    >>
    >>mmm...yeah, i read that about lecithin a while back, and
    >> picked up some soy lecithin granules...emulsifiers, so
    >> you can mix em' into stuff that you're cooking for
    >> good memory stuff.
    >
    > As lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures,

    Is it? Viscosity is affected by heat, but its chemical
    properties remain.

    > it's best to take it 'raw'.

    Katie's granules are dried, possibly by heat, lecithin.
    Aside from the absence of moisture, how else are they
    chemically distinct from liquid lecithin?
     
  8. Pearl

    Pearl Guest

    the village idiot "usual suspect" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...

    pearl wrote: <..>
    > > As lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures,
    >
    > Is it? Viscosity is affected by heat, but its chemical
    > properties remain.
    >
    > > it's best to take it 'raw'.
    >
    > Katie's granules are dried, possibly by heat, lecithin.
    > Aside from the absence of moisture, how else are they
    > chemically distinct from liquid lecithin?

    ' Temperature-sensitive food and pharmaceutical products
    with the highest quality standards can be successfully
    concentrated by thin-film processors. Diluted feedstocks can
    be concentrated to final specification in seconds without
    recirculation, thereby preserving quality and yield. As the
    solids content of the stream increases, temperature
    sensitivity and viscosity generally increase, creating the
    need for short residence time. Agitated thin-film technology
    fulfills these needs while inducing high heat transfer.

    Typical applications are: "Drying" of lecithin to 99.5%
    Concentration of sugar solutions to99.9% Concentration of
    enzymes, vitaminsand proteins; Concentration of fruit and
    vegetablepurees; Concentration of cheesebase; Concentration
    of biological solutions; Stripping of solvents from
    vegetable and plant extracts; Removal of water and solvents
    fromfermentation broths (e.g., antibiotics).

    http://www.lcicorp.com/evap/chem%20proc%20paper.pdf
     
  9. the village idiot pearl wrote:
    > <..>
    >
    >>>As lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures,
    >>
    >>Is it? Viscosity is affected by heat, but its chemical
    >>properties remain.
    >>
    >>
    >>>it's best to take it 'raw'.
    >>
    >>Katie's granules are dried, possibly by heat, lecithin.
    >>Aside from the absence of moisture, how else are they
    >>chemically distinct from liquid lecithin?
    >
    > ' Temperature-sensitive food and pharmaceutical products
    > with the highest quality standards can be successfully
    > concentrated by thin-film processors. Diluted feedstocks
    > can be concentrated to final specification in seconds
    > without recirculation, thereby preserving quality and
    > yield. As the solids content of the stream increases,
    > temperature sensitivity and viscosity generally increase,
    > creating the need for short residence time. Agitated thin-
    > film technology fulfills these needs while inducing high
    > heat transfer.
    >
    > Typical applications are: "Drying" of lecithin to 99.5%
    > Concentration of sugar solutions to99.9% Concentration of
    > enzymes, vitaminsand proteins; Concentration of fruit and
    > vegetablepurees; Concentration of cheesebase;
    > Concentration of biological solutions; Stripping of
    > solvents from vegetable and plant extracts; Removal of
    > water and solvents fromfermentation broths (e.g.,
    > antibiotics).
    >
    > http://www.lcicorp.com/evap/chem%20proc%20paper.pdf

    STUPID moron Lesley, that doesn't answer my question, but it
    is useful. It further proves you cite sources you don't
    comprehend. You know why I say that? Look at the pictures
    and note that *HEAT* is used to process lecithin from liquid
    to granules.

    Now try again. With your claims that it is best to consume
    lecithin 'raw' and that it is 'destroyed by high
    temperatures,' aside from the absence of moisture, how
    else are lecithin granules *chemically distinct* from
    liquid lecithin?
     
  10. Pearl

    Pearl Guest

    the village idiot "usual suspect" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > pearl wrote:
    > > <..>
    > >
    > >>>As lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures,
    > >>
    > >>Is it? Viscosity is affected by heat, but its chemical
    > >>properties remain.
    > >>
    > >>>it's best to take it 'raw'.
    > >>
    > >>Katie's granules are dried, possibly by heat, lecithin.
    > >>Aside from the absence of moisture, how else are they
    > >>chemically distinct from liquid lecithin?
    > >
    > > ' Temperature-sensitive food and pharmaceutical products
    > > with the highest quality standards can be successfully
    > > concentrated by thin-film processors. Diluted feedstocks
    > > can be concentrated to final specification in seconds
    > > without recirculation, thereby preserving quality and
    > > yield. As the solids content of the stream increases,
    > > temperature sensitivity and viscosity generally
    > > increase, creating the need for short residence time.
    > > Agitated thin-film technology fulfills these needs while
    > > inducing high heat transfer.
    > >
    > > Typical applications are: "Drying" of lecithin to 99.5%
    > > Concentration of sugar solutions to99.9% Concentration
    > > of enzymes, vitamins and proteins; Concentration of
    > > fruit and vegetable purees; Concentration of cheese
    > > base; Concentration of biological solutions; Stripping
    > > of solvents from vegetable and plant extracts; Removal
    > > of water and solvents fromfermentation broths (e.g.,
    > > antibiotics).
    > >
    > > http://www.lcicorp.com/evap/chem%20proc%20paper.pdf
    >
    > STUPID moron Lesley, that doesn't answer my question, but
    > it is useful. It further proves you cite sources you don't
    > comprehend. You know why I say that?

    Yes, we know- smear is your modus operandum.

    > Look at the pictures and note that *HEAT* is used to
    > process lecithin from liquid to granules.

    How much heat? I wrote 'high temperatures'- in the context
    of cooking. Note also 'need for short residence time'.

    > Now try again. With your claims that it is best to consume
    > lecithin 'raw' and that it is 'destroyed by high
    > temperatures,' aside from the absence of moisture, how
    > else are lecithin granules *chemically distinct* from
    > liquid lecithin?

    What part of 'temperature-sensitive food' don't you
    understand, 'usual suspect'?
     
  11. Pearl

    Pearl Guest

    "pearl" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:...
    > the village idiot "usual suspect" <[email protected]>
    > wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > pearl wrote:
    > > > <..>
    > > >
    > > >>>As lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures,
    > > >>
    > > >>Is it?

    'Lecithin is a complex mixture of phospholipids and other
    materials. They vary greatly in their physical form, from
    viscous semiliquids to powders, depending upon their free
    fatty acid content. They are almost odorless and will vary
    in color from brown to light yellow. Lecithins are used as
    dispersing, emulsifying and stabilizing agents. They will
    decompose at extreme pH, are hygroscopic and will oxidize,
    darken and *decompose at high temperatures*. Lecithin should
    be stored at room temperature protected from light.
    Refrigeration may cause the material to separate.'
    http://www.rx4u.com/lecithn.htm *emphasis added.

    <..
     
  12. the village idiot Lesley wrote:
    >>><..>
    >>>
    >>>>>As lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures,
    >>>>
    >>>>Is it? Viscosity is affected by heat, but its chemical
    >>>>properties remain.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>it's best to take it 'raw'.
    >>>>
    >>>>Katie's granules are dried, possibly by heat, lecithin.
    >>>>Aside from the absence of moisture, how else are they
    >>>>chemically distinct from liquid lecithin?
    >>>
    >>>' Temperature-sensitive food and pharmaceutical products
    >>>with the highest quality standards can be successfully
    >>>concentrated by thin-film processors. Diluted feedstocks
    >>>can be concentrated to final specification in seconds
    >>>without recirculation, thereby preserving quality and
    >>>yield. As the solids content of the stream increases,
    >>>temperature sensitivity and viscosity generally increase,
    >>>creating the need for short residence time. Agitated thin-
    >>>film technology fulfills these needs while inducing high
    >>>heat transfer.
    >>>
    >>>Typical applications are: "Drying" of lecithin to 99.5%
    >>>Concentration of sugar solutions to99.9% Concentration of
    >>>enzymes, vitamins and proteins; Concentration of fruit
    >>>and vegetable purees; Concentration of cheese base;
    >>>Concentration of biological solutions; Stripping of
    >>>solvents from vegetable and plant extracts; Removal of
    >>>water and solvents fromfermentation broths (e.g.,
    >>>antibiotics).
    >>>
    >>>http://www.lcicorp.com/evap/chem%20proc%20paper.pdf
    >>
    >>STUPID moron Lesley, that doesn't answer my question, but
    >>it is useful. It further proves you cite sources you don't
    >>comprehend. You know why I say that?
    >
    > Yes, we know- smear is your modus operandum.

    Your MO is stupidity. Mine is truth.

    >>Look at the pictures and note that *HEAT* is used to
    >>process lecithin from liquid to granules.
    >
    > How much heat? I wrote 'high temperatures'- in the context
    > of cooking.

    Cooking doesn't make any difference, either, at least
    with respect to changing its state. Lecithin remains
    lecithin, regardless of heat. All you do is exchange
    (add, subtract) moisture.

    > Note also 'need for short residence time'.

    How long does it take to dry, regardless of method? Heat is
    applied. It doesn't destroy any property of lecithin aside
    to change its physical state from liquid to granule. The
    same occurs whether processing lecithin from soy oil or even
    cooking (which only puts lecithin in solution with other
    ingredients) with lecithin, dummy.

    >>Now try again. With your claims that it is best to consume
    >>lecithin 'raw' and that it is 'destroyed by high
    >>temperatures,' aside from the absence of moisture, how
    >>else are lecithin granules *chemically distinct* from
    >>liquid lecithin?
    >
    > What part of 'temperature-sensitive food' don't you
    > understand, 'usual suspect'?

    You're the one not comprehending or supporting your claim
    that "lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures; it's best
    to take it raw." The lecithin you purchase -- liquid or
    granule -- as a supplement or a food additive has been
    subjected to heat. Lots of heat over long periods of time.
    It's *still* lecithin, it'll *still* work as an emulsifier
    in either state, and it *still* contains choline.

    Just how is lecithin separated from soy oil anyway? Lecithin
    is a combination of naturally-occurring phospholipids, which
    are extracted during the processing of soybean oil. The
    soybeans are tempered by keeping them at a consistent
    temperature and moisture level for approximately seven to 10
    days. This process hydrates the soybeans and loosens the
    hull. The soybeans are then cleaned and cracked into small
    pieces and the hulls are separated from the cracked beans.
    Next, the soybean pieces are heated and pressed into flakes.
    Soybean oil is extracted from the flakes through a
    distillation process and lecithin is separated from the oil
    by the addition of water and centrifugation or steam
    precipitation.
    http://www.talksoy.com/pdfs/SoyLecithinFactSheet3.pdf

    Did someone say distillation? That involves heat, LOTS of
    heat for a LONG period of time. So does steam precipitation
    -- that happens at 100c over time: distillation, process
    used to separate the substances composing a mixture. It
    involves a change of state, as of liquid to gas, and
    subsequent condensation. The process was probably first used
    in the production of intoxicating beverages. Today, refined
    methods of distillation are used in many industries,
    including the alcohol and petroleum industries.
    http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0815646.html (read the
    part about distillation processes, dummy)

    BTW, I'm surprised you advocate the use of a soy byproduct.
    When soy lecithin supplements were given throughout
    perinatal development, they reduced activity in the cerebral
    cortex and "altered synaptic characteristics in a manner
    consistent with disturbances in neural function."
    http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/17/soy_brain.htm

    Which loonie source will you rely upon this time? You are
    the lowest-grade moron in usenet history.
     
  13. Pearl

    Pearl Guest

    the village idiot "usual suspect" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    pearl wrote:
    > >>><..>
    > >>>
    > >>>>>As lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures,
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Is it? Viscosity is affected by heat, but its chemical
    > >>>>properties remain.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>>>it's best to take it 'raw'.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Katie's granules are dried, possibly by heat,
    > >>>>lecithin. Aside from the absence of moisture, how else
    > >>>>are they chemically distinct from liquid lecithin?
    > >>>
    > >>>' Temperature-sensitive food and pharmaceutical
    > >>>products with the highest quality standards can be
    > >>>successfully concentrated by thin-film processors.
    > >>>Diluted feedstocks can be concentrated to final
    > >>>specification in seconds without recirculation, thereby
    > >>>preserving quality and yield. As the solids content of
    > >>>the stream increases, temperature sensitivity and
    > >>>viscosity generally increase, creating the need for
    > >>>short residence time. Agitated thin-film technology
    > >>>fulfills these needs while inducing high heat transfer.
    > >>>
    > >>>Typical applications are: "Drying" of lecithin to 99.5%
    > >>>Concentration of sugar solutions to99.9% Concentration
    > >>>of enzymes, vitamins and proteins; Concentration of
    > >>>fruit and vegetable purees; Concentration of cheese
    > >>>base; Concentration of biological solutions; Stripping
    > >>>of solvents from vegetable and plant extracts; Removal
    > >>>of water and solvents fromfermentation broths (e.g.,
    > >>>antibiotics).
    > >>>
    > >>>http://www.lcicorp.com/evap/chem%20proc%20paper.pdf
    > >>
    > >>STUPID moron Lesley, that doesn't answer my question,
    > >>but it is useful. It further proves you cite sources you
    > >>don't comprehend. You know why I say that?
    > >
    > > Yes, we know- smear is your modus operandum.
    >
    > Your MO is stupidity. Mine is truth.

    LOL!!

    > >>Look at the pictures and note that *HEAT* is used to
    > >>process lecithin from liquid to granules.
    > >
    > > How much heat? I wrote 'high temperatures'- in the
    > > context of cooking.
    >
    > Cooking doesn't make any difference, either, at least with
    > respect to changing its state. Lecithin remains lecithin,
    > regardless of heat. All you do is exchange (add, subtract)
    > moisture.
    >
    > > Note also 'need for short residence time'.
    >
    > How long does it take to dry, regardless of method? Heat
    > is applied. It doesn't destroy any property of lecithin
    > aside to change its physical state from liquid to granule.
    > The same occurs whether processing lecithin from soy oil
    > or even cooking (which only puts lecithin in solution with
    > other ingredients) with lecithin, dummy.
    >
    > >>Now try again. With your claims that it is best to
    > >>consume lecithin 'raw' and that it is 'destroyed by high
    > >>temperatures,' aside from the absence of moisture, how
    > >>else are lecithin granules *chemically distinct* from
    > >>liquid lecithin?
    > >
    > > What part of 'temperature-sensitive food' don't you
    > > understand, 'usual suspect'?
    >
    > You're the one not comprehending or supporting your claim
    > that "lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures; it's
    > best to take it raw." The lecithin you purchase -- liquid
    > or granule -- as a supplement or a food additive has been
    > subjected to heat. Lots of heat over long periods of time.
    > It's *still* lecithin, it'll *still* work as an emulsifier
    > in either state, and it *still* contains choline.
    >
    > Just how is lecithin separated from soy oil anyway?
    > Lecithin is a combination of naturally-occurring
    > phospholipids, which are extracted during the processing
    > of soybean oil. The soybeans are tempered by keeping them
    > at a consistent temperature and moisture level for
    > approximately seven to 10 days. This process hydrates the
    > soybeans and loosens the hull. The soybeans are then
    > cleaned and cracked into small pieces and the hulls are
    > separated from the cracked beans. Next, the soybean pieces
    > are heated and pressed into flakes. Soybean oil is
    > extracted from the flakes through a distillation process
    > and lecithin is separated from the oil by the addition of
    > water and centrifugation or steam precipitation.
    > http://www.talksoy.com/pdfs/SoyLecithinFactSheet3.pdf
    >
    > Did someone say distillation? That involves heat, LOTS of
    > heat for a LONG period of time. So does steam
    > precipitation -- that happens at 100c over time:
    > distillation, process used to separate the substances
    > composing a mixture. It involves a change of state, as of
    > liquid to gas, and subsequent condensation. The process
    > was probably first used in the production of intoxicating
    > beverages. Today, refined methods of distillation are used
    > in many industries, including the alcohol and petroleum
    > industries.
    > http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0815646.html (read the
    > part about distillation processes, dummy)

    Apparently much commercial soy-derived lecithin is rancid.

    'Much lecithin on the market is rancid. Thebest form of
    lecithin I know is Twin Labs brand "PC 55" - it contains 55%
    PC and is always very fresh. http://tinyurl.com/2rnyl

    I wonder if they use a different extraction method for "PC
    55".

    'Lecithin is a complex mixture of phospholipids and other
    materials. They vary greatly in their physical form, from
    viscous semiliquids to powders, depending upon their free
    fatty acid content. They are almost odorless and will vary
    in color from brown to light yellow. Lecithins are used as
    dispersing, emulsifying and stabilizing agents. They will
    decompose at extreme pH, are hygroscopic and will oxidize,
    darken and *decompose at high temperatures*. Lecithin should
    be stored at room temperature protected from light.
    Refrigeration may cause the material to separate.'
    http://www.rx4u.com/lecithn.htm *emphasis added.

    > BTW, I'm surprised you advocate the use of a soy
    > byproduct. When soy lecithin supplements were given
    > throughout perinatal development, they reduced activity in
    > the cerebral cortex and "altered synaptic characteristics
    > in a manner consistent with disturbances in neural
    > function."
    > http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/17/soy_brain.htm

    - in non-human animals, possibly in excess.

    I'm not keen on soy products in general, but I think that
    many of the problems discovered may have been due to
    contaminants.

    <..
     
  14. *the* village idiot wrote: <...>
    >>>>Look at the pictures and note that *HEAT* is used to
    >>>>process lecithin from liquid to granules.
    >>>
    >>>How much heat? I wrote 'high temperatures'- in the
    >>>context of cooking.
    >>
    >>Cooking doesn't make any difference, either, at least with
    >>respect to changing its state. Lecithin remains lecithin,
    >>regardless of heat. All you do is exchange (add, subtract)
    >>moisture.
    >>
    >>
    >>>Note also 'need for short residence time'.
    >>
    >>How long does it take to dry, regardless of method? Heat
    >>is applied. It doesn't destroy any property of lecithin
    >>aside to change its physical state from liquid to granule.
    >>The same occurs whether processing lecithin from soy oil
    >>or even cooking (which only puts lecithin in solution with
    >>other ingredients) with lecithin, dummy.
    >>
    >>
    >>>>Now try again. With your claims that it is best to
    >>>>consume lecithin 'raw' and that it is 'destroyed by high
    >>>>temperatures,' aside from the absence of moisture, how
    >>>>else are lecithin granules *chemically distinct* from
    >>>>liquid lecithin?
    >>>
    >>>What part of 'temperature-sensitive food' don't you
    >>>understand, 'usual suspect'?
    >>
    >>You're the one not comprehending or supporting your claim
    >>that "lecithin is destroyed by high temperatures; it's
    >>best to take it raw." The lecithin you purchase -- liquid
    >>or granule -- as a supplement or a food additive has been
    >>subjected to heat. Lots of heat over long periods of time.
    >>It's *still* lecithin, it'll *still* work as an emulsifier
    >>in either state, and it *still* contains choline.
    >>
    >>Just how is lecithin separated from soy oil anyway?
    >>Lecithin is a combination of naturally-occurring
    >>phospholipids, which are extracted during the processing
    >>of soybean oil. The soybeans are tempered by keeping them
    >>at a consistent temperature and moisture level for
    >>approximately seven to 10 days. This process hydrates the
    >>soybeans and loosens the hull. The soybeans are then
    >>cleaned and cracked into small pieces and the hulls are
    >>separated from the cracked beans. Next, the soybean pieces
    >>are heated and pressed into flakes. Soybean oil is
    >>extracted from the flakes through a distillation process
    >>and lecithin is separated from the oil by the addition of
    >>water and centrifugation or steam precipitation.
    >>http://www.talksoy.com/pdfs/SoyLecithinFactSheet3.pdf
    >>
    >>Did someone say distillation? That involves heat, LOTS of
    >>heat for a LONG period of time. So does steam
    >>precipitation -- that happens at 100c over time:
    >>distillation, process used to separate the substances
    >>composing a mixture. It involves a change of state, as of
    >>liquid to gas, and subsequent condensation. The process
    >>was probably first used in the production of intoxicating
    >>beverages. Today, refined methods of distillation are used
    >>in many industries, including the alcohol and petroleum
    >>industries.
    >>http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0815646.html (read the
    >>part about distillation processes, dummy)
    >
    > Apparently much commercial soy-derived lecithin is rancid.

    IPSE DIXIT, DIPSHIT. HOBOES.COM DOES *NOT* COUNT AS A
    VALID SOURCE.

    > 'Much lecithin on the market is rancid. Thebest form of
    > lecithin I know is Twin Labs brand "PC 55" - it contains
    > 55% PC and is always very fresh. http://tinyurl.com/2rnyl

    hoboes.com??? Mondo 2000??? Surely you can do better than
    some Berkeley dork's personal zine.

    > I wonder if they use a different extraction method for
    > "PC 55".

    Yeah, so do I. Not. Lecithin is lecithin.

    > 'Lecithin is a complex mixture of phospholipids and other
    > materials. They vary greatly in their physical form, from
    > viscous semiliquids to powders, depending upon their free
    > fatty acid content. They are almost odorless and will vary
    > in color from brown to light yellow. Lecithins are used as
    > dispersing, emulsifying and stabilizing agents. They will
    > decompose at extreme pH, are hygroscopic and will oxidize,
    > darken and *decompose at high temperatures*. Lecithin
    > should be stored at room temperature protected from light.
    > Refrigeration may cause the material to separate.'
    > http://www.rx4u.com/lecithn.htm *emphasis added.

    Ipse dixit. That site offers no evidence to support such
    claims. It also flies in the face of soy processing:
    lecithin results from a distillate process followed by centrifuge-
    or steam-separation from soy oil. So it goes through at
    least one stage in which sustained heat is absolutely
    required, and optionally a second.

    >>BTW, I'm surprised you advocate the use of a soy
    >>byproduct. When soy lecithin supplements were given
    >>throughout perinatal development, they reduced activity in
    >>the cerebral cortex and "altered synaptic characteristics
    >>in a manner consistent with disturbances in neural
    >>function."
    >>http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/17/soy_brain.htm
    >
    > - in non-human animals,

    So?

    > possibly in excess.

    Excess according to what or whom?

    > I'm not keen on soy products in general, but I think that
    > many of the problems discovered may have been due to
    > contaminants.

    The feminizing aspects of phytoestrogens are not
    contaminants.

    Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen
    coumestrol (found in sunflower seeds and oil and
    alfalfa sprouts) through their mother's milk, suffered
    permanent reproductive problems: female pups when grown
    did not ovulate, and males had altered mounting
    behavior and fewer ejaculations (2). [Whitten, P., C.
    Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen diet
    induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in
    lactationally exposed female rats. Biology of
    Reproduction 49:1117-21.]

    Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol
    experienced estrogen-related responses, such as
    premature estrous cycles. Coumestrol also interrupted
    ovarian cycles in adult female rats
    (3).[Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
    Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]

    Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a
    compound found in soy products), experienced altered
    hormone secretions and the onset of puberty may have
    been delayed because female rats were exposed to the
    compound as fetuses (3). [Ibid.]

    “In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone
    were not affected, but levels of 3a, 17B-
    androstanediol glucuronide (a metabolite of
    dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate
    were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
    weeks of daily soya ingestion.” [Supported by USPHS
    CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy Memorial
    Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
    Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH
    NCRR GCRC grant M01 RR00073]

    All above lifted from: http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme-
    nts.com/articles/soyestrogen.shtml

    Additionally, see: http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm
     
  15. Pearl

    Pearl Guest

    *the* village idiot "usual suspect" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > pearl wrote:
    <...>
    > > I wonder if they use a different extraction method for
    > > "PC 55".
    >
    > Yeah, so do I. Not. Lecithin is lecithin.

    “lecithin” differs from “phosphatidylcholine”, however.

    'Supplements labeled as “lecithin” usually contain 10–20%
    PC. Relatively pure PC supplements are generally labeled as
    “phosphatidylcholine.” PC best duplicates supplements used
    in medical research.
    http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Lecithin.htm

    'Impact of Cooking, Storage and Processing How do cooking,
    storage & processing affect choline? Although consistent
    information is not available on the effects of cooking,
    storage, and processing on the choline content of food,
    choline’s participation in cell membranes and in the fatty
    portion of food renders it susceptible to alteration by
    oxygen and heat. While maximizing choline content would not
    be a good reason to choose raw egg yolk over cooked egg yolk
    (too many safety risks are involved with raw egg yolk),
    overcooking of foods high in choline would be a practice
    worth avoiding to help preserve choline content. '
    http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=50

    > > 'Lecithin is a complex mixture of phospholipids and
    > > other materials. They vary greatly in their physical
    > > form, from viscous semiliquids to powders, depending
    > > upon their free fatty acid content. They are almost
    > > odorless and will vary in color from brown to light
    > > yellow. Lecithins are used as dispersing, emulsifying
    > > and stabilizing agents. They will decompose at extreme
    > > pH, are hygroscopic and will oxidize, darken and
    > > *decompose at high temperatures*. Lecithin should be
    > > stored at room temperature protected from light.
    > > Refrigeration may cause the material to separate.'
    > > http://www.rx4u.com/lecithn.htm *emphasis added.
    >
    > Ipse dixit. That site offers no evidence to support such
    > claims. It also flies in the face of soy processing:
    > lecithin results from a distillate process followed by centrifuge-
    > or steam-separation from soy oil. So it goes through at
    > least one stage in which sustained heat is absolutely
    > required, and optionally a second.

    Lecithin is produced for many different usages, I'm talking
    about quality phosphatidylcholine nutritional supplements.

    > >>BTW, I'm surprised you advocate the use of a soy
    > >>byproduct. When soy lecithin supplements were given
    > >>throughout perinatal development, they reduced activity
    > >>in the cerebral cortex and "altered synaptic
    > >>characteristics in a manner consistent with disturbances
    > >>in neural function."
    > >>http://www.mercola.com/2000/sept/17/soy_brain.htm
    > >
    > > - in non-human animals,
    >
    > So?

    So they are completely different species with different
    reactions to various substances. And you call others pseudo-
    scientific quacks!

    > > possibly in excess.
    >
    > Excess according to what or whom?

    According to a RAT's tolerance, ducky.

    > > I'm not keen on soy products in general, but I think
    > > that many of the problems discovered may have been due
    > > to contaminants.
    >
    > The feminizing aspects of phytoestrogens are not
    > contaminants.
    >
    > Rat

    Rats are not humans.

    <snip cruel time-wasting 'research'>

    > All above lifted from: http://www.cheapbodybuildingsupple-
    > ments.com/articles/soyestrogen.shtml
    >
    > Additionally, see: http://www.t-
    > mag.com/articles/185soy.html
    > http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm
     
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