NYT Article: Police Surveillance of Cyclists as Political Dissidents

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Elisa Francesca Roselli, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/n...8926beae1ec&hp&ex=1135314000&partner=homepage

    Some extracts:

    "Undercover New York City police officers have conducted covert
    surveillance in the last 16 months of people protesting the Iraq war,
    bicycle riders taking part in mass rallies and even mourners at a street
    vigil for a cyclist killed in an accident, a series of videotapes show."


    "Provided with images from the tape, the Police Department's chief
    spokesman, Paul J. Browne, did not dispute that they showed officers at
    work but said that disguised officers had always attended such
    gatherings - not to investigate political activities but to keep order
    and protect free speech. Activists, however, say that police officers
    masquerading as protesters and bicycle riders distort their messages and
    provoke trouble."


    "After the 2001 terrorist attacks, officials at all levels of government
    considered major changes in various police powers. President Bush
    acknowledged last Saturday that he has secretly permitted the National
    Security Agency to eavesdrop without a warrant on international
    telephone calls and e-mail messages in terror investigations.

    In New York, the administration of Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg persuaded
    a federal judge in 2003 to enlarge the Police Department's authority to
    conduct investigations of political, social and religious groups. "We
    live in a more dangerous, constantly changing world," Police
    Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said."


    "Ryan Kuonen, 32, who took part in a "ride of silence" in memory of a
    dead cyclist, said that two undercover officers - one with a camera -
    subverted the event. "They were just in your face," she said. "It made
    what was a really solemn event into something that seemed wrong. It made
    you feel like you were a criminal. It was grotesque.""


    EFR
    Glad to be in Ile de France
     
    Tags:


  2. Nuck 'n Futz

    Nuck 'n Futz Guest

    Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
    > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/n...8926beae1ec&hp&ex=1135314000&partner=homepage
    >
    > Some extracts:
    >
    > "Undercover New York City police officers have conducted covert
    > surveillance in the last 16 months of people protesting the Iraq war,
    > bicycle riders taking part in mass rallies and even mourners at a
    > street vigil for a cyclist killed in an accident, a series of
    > videotapes show."


    How long will it take 'em to blame Bush?


    > "Provided with images from the tape, the Police Department's chief
    > spokesman, Paul J. Browne, did not dispute that they showed officers
    > at work but said that disguised officers had always attended such
    > gatherings - not to investigate political activities but to keep order
    > and protect free speech. Activists, however, say that police officers
    > masquerading as protesters and bicycle riders distort their messages
    > and provoke trouble."
    >
    >
    > "After the 2001 terrorist attacks, officials at all levels of
    > government considered major changes in various police powers.
    > President Bush acknowledged last Saturday that he has secretly
    > permitted the National Security Agency to eavesdrop without a warrant
    > on international telephone calls and e-mail messages in terror
    > investigations.


    Two paragraphs! Qualifies as RESTRAINT for the NYT!

    > Bloomberg
    > persuaded a federal judge in 2003 to enlarge the Police Department's
    > authority to conduct investigations of political, social and
    > religious groups. "We live in a more dangerous, constantly changing
    > world," Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said."
    >
    >
    > "Ryan Kuonen, 32, who took part in a "ride of silence" in memory of a
    > dead cyclist, said that two undercover officers - one with a camera -
    > subverted the event. "They were just in your face," she said. "It made
    > what was a really solemn event into something that seemed wrong. It
    > made you feel like you were a criminal. It was grotesque.""
    >
    >
    > EFR
    > Glad to be in Ile de France


    Once the bribes run out, be careful! (Or just surrender LOL )

    N&F
     
  3. Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:

    > Glad to be in Ile de France


    That wonderful utopia of diversity, opportunity, and police restraint.

    Liberté, Égalité, Vous Papiers?
     
  4. Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
    > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/n...8926beae1ec&hp&ex=1135314000&partner=homepage
    >
    >
    > "Undercover New York City police officers have conducted covert
    > surveillance in the last 16 months of people protesting the Iraq war,
    > bicycle riders taking part in mass rallies and even mourners at a street
    > vigil for a cyclist killed in an accident, a series of videotapes show."
    >


    Just more evidence that the USA really has sleep-walked its way into a
    state of Corporate Fascism, as argued by commentators ranging from Noam
    Chomsky through to the comedian Bill Hicks.

    No one can doubt that Chomsky is a bona-fide genius and not just some
    'conspiracy nut'. When a young man Chomsky virtually invented modern
    linguistics. There is, surprisingly enough, even a useful wikki page on
    Chomsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky

    Chomsky's book 'Understanding Power' is a good introduction to this
    political thought. It has it's own web page at
    http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/understandingpower/

    See also:

    http://www.chomsky.info/

    http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

    http://www.thedeprogrammer.com/fascism.html

    There are also shed load of books around all from authors who have
    reached the same conclusion, such as Friendly Fascism : The New Face of
    Power in America by Bertram Gross.
     
  5. dgk

    dgk Guest

    On 22 Dec 2005 03:06:57 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

    >
    >Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
    >> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/n...8926beae1ec&hp&ex=1135314000&partner=homepage
    >>
    >>
    >> "Undercover New York City police officers have conducted covert
    >> surveillance in the last 16 months of people protesting the Iraq war,
    >> bicycle riders taking part in mass rallies and even mourners at a street
    >> vigil for a cyclist killed in an accident, a series of videotapes show."
    >>

    >
    >Just more evidence that the USA really has sleep-walked its way into a
    >state of Corporate Fascism, as argued by commentators ranging from Noam
    >Chomsky through to the comedian Bill Hicks.
    >
    >No one can doubt that Chomsky is a bona-fide genius and not just some
    >'conspiracy nut'. When a young man Chomsky virtually invented modern
    >linguistics. There is, surprisingly enough, even a useful wikki page on
    >Chomsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky
    >
    >Chomsky's book 'Understanding Power' is a good introduction to this
    >political thought. It has it's own web page at
    >http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/understandingpower/
    >
    >See also:
    >
    >http://www.chomsky.info/
    >
    >http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
    >
    >http://www.thedeprogrammer.com/fascism.html
    >
    >There are also shed load of books around all from authors who have
    >reached the same conclusion, such as Friendly Fascism : The New Face of
    >Power in America by Bertram Gross.


    Yes, all true unfortunately.
     
  6. Jon is Away!

    Jon is Away! Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > That wonderful utopia of diversity, opportunity, and police restraint.
    >
    > Liberté, Égalité, Vous Papiers?


    ITYM: "Liberté, Égalité, Vos Papiers?"

    ;-)

    Jon
     
  7. Jon is Away! wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > > That wonderful utopia of diversity, opportunity, and police restraint.
    > >
    > > Liberté, Égalité, Vous Papiers?

    >
    > ITYM: "Liberté, Égalité, Vos Papiers?"
    >
    > ;-)
    >
    > Jon


    See? Those lousy American schools! This must be W's fault, because it
    certainly isn't mine.
     
  8. Cheto

    Cheto Guest

  9. Cheto wrote:

    > And the UK is a paradise of freedom?


    Hell no! Blair and Bush are both corporate puppets leading their
    respective countries into a corporation-dominated
    hierarchical-authoritarian future. In fact you might have noticed that
    Blair was just about the only world leader to have his tongue firmly up
    Bush's backside when it was clear that Bush was going to go ahead with
    his illegal invasion of Iraq. What's more many of the policies Blair is
    enacting were taken right off the Republican shelf.

    What was it Mussolini said? "Fascism should rightly be called
    Corporatism as it is a merge of state and corporate power."

    Or, as the UK comedian Bill Bailey said, it's a mystery why the UK
    'hangs around' with America, unless it stems from a mutual taste for
    violence. America is the bully of the world going around and
    threatening other countries that if they don't hand their sweets over
    they will have their face smashed in. Meanwhile Britain hides behind
    waving its fist and going 'Yeah!...

    What we should be doing instead is developing our links with Europe and
    adopting their more egalitarian and inclusive social values before the
    UK ends up, as Gerorge Orwell predicted as 'Airstrip One' and not only
    do we end up with American levels of crime and violence, we also end up
    spending more on locking people up than treating thier illnesses.

    (By the way, I note that Microsoft's 'Office' suite does not even
    recognise the word 'egality' and for 'egalitarian give the definition'
    ....a belief that all people are, in principle, equal and should enjoy
    equal social, political and economic rights and opportunities.' This
    does contrast somewhat with the UK dictionary definition which says
    that egalitarianism is 'the doctrine of the equality of mankind and the
    desirability of political, social and economic equality'. Yup, the
    American brainwashing machine operates in some very subtle ways...).

    That said, the report you mention does not give me many worries. There
    are many types of 'freedom' and in the UK you are certainly not free to
    cycle on the roads free of fear due to the generally dreadful standard
    of driving and the high level of driving crime, all made worse by the
    number of uninsured and unlicenced cars on the road. The technology in
    the report may well address some of these issues, thereby giving back
    freedom to cyclists and law-abiding drivers by taking it away from the
    motoring criminal, which is fine in my book.
     
  10. [email protected] wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > Liberté, Égalité, Vous Papiers?

    >
    > You should look at the treatment many people receive from the US
    > customs when visiting the USA...


    There is a difference between having one's identitly verified and
    intentions determined when entering a foreign country, and being
    accosted on the street by police demanding identification because one
    doesn't look "french". By contrast, in the US it is such that most
    police departments are barred by law from asking anyone their
    immigration status.

    > This is from Graham Obree's book 'The Flying Scotsman', speaking of his
    > treatment when travelling to a world cup track meeting.
    >
    > 'When we reached Miami, I was hauled into immigration, which clearly
    > meant that I would miss my onward flight... I was forced to sit in a
    > room full of other detainees for an inordinate amount of time in
    > unbearable heat, and when I went up to ask about my case, I was
    > rebuffed in a manner that could start a prison riot. Between expletives
    > he said that if I did not shut the f*** up, the US government would
    > have me in handcuffs.'


    One man's story of being told to wait to cross an international border,
    where his ego is bruised by not being recognized, does not a police
    state make.

    > A few links for your entertainment to illustrate a few other
    > differences between the USA and France...


    The fact that horrible things have happened in the US (and continue to
    do so in one form or another) is not unique. Horrible things happen all
    over the world. In free societies, the difference is that these
    atrocities are made public, and eventually they are put right. Most of
    the free societies in the world today (France and the UK included) are
    free today thanks to the efforts of the US. Check
    http://freedomhouse.org/ to see where the real atrocities are happening
    in the world today.

    >
    > And that's without even considering the real cranks like the KKK,
    > Survivalists, TV evangelists, gun nuts and all the rest, not to mention
    > the behaviour of the USA in Iraq...


    The KKK (started by Democrats, by the way) is a tiny fringe group of
    nuts of even less significance today than skin-head movements in
    Europe. Survivalists? Like having paranoid doomsday-folks hole
    themselves up in the woods is a problem? Perhaps TV evangelists should
    be delt with the way missionaries in China are delt with.

    By "behavior in Iraq" I assume you mean the despicable behavior of
    individual sickos like Lindie England, and not the freeing of millions
    of people from a sadistic dictator. Crimes by US soldiers have been
    investigated and prosecuted publicly as the illegal abberations they
    were. Saddam's Iraq used atrocities as policy. Mass graves with
    hundreds of thousands of victims, child prisons, rape-rooms, tounges
    being cut out, all that is a thing of the past. Iraq has so far held 3
    public elections with a higher voter turn-out than the UK or US has
    seen in years. Iraq has joined the free world and it's citizens long
    subjected to murderous brutality soon will enjoy all the freedoms you
    take for granted.

    Joseph

    PS: If this thread continues, let's all please try to remain civil.
    (Myself included)
     
  11. [email protected] wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > > Iraq has joined the free world and it's citizens long
    > > subjected to murderous brutality soon will enjoy all the freedoms you
    > > take for granted.
    > >

    > As an American I know that you are led to belive such things But...
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1651810,00.html


    I'm sure in another context you would insist Allawi was a stooge of the
    US since he was appointed my the US "puppet" IGC. His comments were
    made as part of a campaing for the elections where he was running on a
    law-and-order platform.

    Of course Iraq is in a rough situation, and many bad things happen
    there. The difference is that now these bad things are seen as the evil
    that they are, not standard policy of the government. And the issue is
    brought up in a public forum by a public figure and denounced, and the
    will is there to deal with it. All Iraqiis will soon enjoy the freedoms
    one has in a free society. Some of them already do.

    Joseph
     
  12. [email protected] wrote:

    > By "behavior in Iraq" I assume you mean the despicable behavior of
    > individual sickos like Lindie England, and not the freeing of millions
    > of people from a sadistic dictator. Crimes by US soldiers have been
    > investigated and prosecuted publicly as the illegal abberations they
    > were.


    Really? To most of the rest of the world it looked like a few 'stupid
    grunts' were sold down the river in order to cover up the complicity of
    those much higher up who authorised and enabled the atrocities to take
    place in the first place!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1664207,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1657434,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1653937,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1638810,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1580243,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1448281,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianweekly/story/0,,1305741,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/editor/story/0,,1235084,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1218400,00.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1212197,00.html

    etc. etc.etc.
     
  13. cycle-one

    cycle-one Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Cheto wrote:
    >
    >> And the UK is a paradise of freedom?

    >
    > Hell no! Blair and Bush are both corporate puppets leading their
    > respective countries into a corporation-dominated
    > hierarchical-authoritarian future.


    Gee and ere I thought I was the last reactionary.

    Does anyone else consider as an added benefit the lack of control the state
    can exert by eschewing kars and all the attendant licensing;and living a
    cycling life?
     
  14. [email protected] wrote:
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > > By "behavior in Iraq" I assume you mean the despicable behavior of
    > > individual sickos like Lindie England, and not the freeing of millions
    > > of people from a sadistic dictator. Crimes by US soldiers have been
    > > investigated and prosecuted publicly as the illegal abberations they
    > > were.

    >
    > Really? To most of the rest of the world it looked like a few 'stupid
    > grunts' were sold down the river in order to cover up the complicity of
    > those much higher up who authorised and enabled the atrocities to take
    > place in the first place!
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1664207,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1657434,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1653937,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1638810,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1580243,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1448281,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianweekly/story/0,,1305741,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/editor/story/0,,1235084,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1218400,00.html
    >
    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1212197,00.html
    >
    > etc. etc.etc.


    There is a big difference between memos discussing what is acceptable
    and legal treatment of high-value prisoners for the purpose of
    extracting information, and mistreating random prisoners for one's own
    sick sadistic pleasure. Those stupid grunts caused significant harm to
    the just cause of freeing Iraq, and any suggestion that their
    meaningless deeds were authorized or un-officially condoned is
    ludicrous. By their own admission many of those accused said they
    actively kept such abuses from their superiors because they knew that
    it would not be tolerated.

    So you think they should give Saddam back his shotgun, and get the
    oil-for-palaces program running again so the people don't have to
    suffer the indignities of having to vote? Or do you agree that ridding
    Iraq of Saddam and his sons was in itself a good thing?

    Joseph
     
  15. [email protected] wrote:

    >
    > There is a big difference between memos discussing what is acceptable
    > and legal treatment of high-value prisoners for the purpose of
    > extracting information... and mistreating random prisoners for one's own
    > sick sadistic pleasure.


    You mean there is a difference between torture in order to serve the
    'needs' of the invading forces and torture which is done 'just for
    fun'? Probably doesn't make any difference one way or the other to the
    victims... You also seem to be in some sort of state of denial when you
    talk of 'memos' as though their contents had no relevance to what was
    being done as a consequence of them.

    > do you agree that ridding Iraq of Saddam and his sons was in itself a good thing?


    Looking at Iraq at the moment I don't think that many Iraqis could say
    that they are better off. I guess it is a good thing for all the
    American companies making a fortune out of 'rebuilding' Iraq, (and
    charging extortionate rates for doing so) while in exchange as much oil
    as is possible is being pumped out of the country to feed America's car
    culture and plans are being drawn up to exploit the remaining 100-200
    billion barrels of oil which are still in the ground.

    In any case many of the deprivations the Iraqi people suffered under
    the the previous regime were no less due to other external factors,
    such as the US blockade of medical and other supplies which cost the
    lives of over half a million Iraqi children, Oh, and wasn't it the USA
    who bolstered his power in the first place by supporting him when he
    invaded Iran back in 1980? (And he was an American puppet for a long
    time before this).

    All that really changed was that Saddam no longer served the needs of
    the USA, so it's a bit hypocritical to try to claim 'the moral high
    ground' now. After all, history shows us that the USA is quite
    prepared to support almost any dictatorship if doing so serves
    America's interests. What's more the USA is also quite prepared to
    undermine legitimate democratic governments and to engineer the
    establishment of dictatorships if this suits its purposes, as it did in
    the case of Chile back in 1973.
     
  16. Mike Kruger

    Mike Kruger Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >
    > Just more evidence that the USA really has sleep-walked its way into a
    > state of Corporate Fascism, as argued by commentators ranging from Noam
    > Chomsky through to the comedian Bill Hicks.
    >

    Can't you do better than Noam Chomsky and some comedian I've never heard of?

    > No one can doubt that Chomsky is a bona-fide genius and not just some
    > 'conspiracy nut'. When a young man Chomsky virtually invented modern
    > linguistics. There is, surprisingly enough, even a useful wikki page on
    > Chomsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky
    >

    In linguistics, Chomsky is a bona-finbe genius. Genius isn't all that
    transferrable, however. Just because you have achieved brilliance in an
    academic field does not mean you are brilliant in all fields, or even more
    than one. In politics, Chomsky is on the far, far fringe.
     
  17. SB

    SB Guest

    On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:52:11 +0000, Mike Kruger wrote:

    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>
    >> Just more evidence that the USA really has sleep-walked its way into a
    >> state of Corporate Fascism, as argued by commentators ranging from Noam
    >> Chomsky through to the comedian Bill Hicks.
    >>

    > Can't you do better than Noam Chomsky and some comedian I've never heard of?
    >
    >> No one can doubt that Chomsky is a bona-fide genius and not just some
    >> 'conspiracy nut'. When a young man Chomsky virtually invented modern
    >> linguistics. There is, surprisingly enough, even a useful wikki page on
    >> Chomsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky
    >>

    > In linguistics, Chomsky is a bona-finbe genius. Genius isn't all that
    > transferrable, however. Just because you have achieved brilliance in an
    > academic field does not mean you are brilliant in all fields, or even more
    > than one. In politics, Chomsky is on the far, far fringe.


    No, he's not. He's right on. He seems on the fringe because
    the rest of the western world is disgustingly to the right. Peace, love
    and understanding are only for songs and peoples' personal inner circles
    in our current corporate dominated society where ignorance and selfishness
    prevails.
     
  18. andy gee

    andy gee Guest

    [email protected] wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    >
    > Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
    >> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/nyregion/22police.html?pagewanted=1

    &
    >> ei=5094&en=10dca8926beae1ec&hp&ex=1135314000&partner=homepage
    >>
    >>
    >> "Undercover New York City police officers have conducted covert
    >> surveillance in the last 16 months of people protesting the Iraq war,
    >> bicycle riders taking part in mass rallies and even mourners at a
    >> street vigil for a cyclist killed in an accident, a series of
    >> videotapes show."
    >>

    >
    > Just more evidence that the USA really has sleep-walked its way into a
    > state of Corporate Fascism, as argued by commentators ranging from
    > Noam Chomsky through to the comedian Bill Hicks.


    The situation in New York is quite odd. On one hand, we're shoveling
    money into bicycle facilities. On the other hand, the City really has
    it in for Critical Mass.

    The solution to this situation is for Critical Mass to (non)organize
    rides to WORK in the MORNING rather than on Friday nights when everyone
    is trying to get to the theatre for their $104 shows.


    >
    > No one can doubt that Chomsky is a bona-fide genius and not just some
    > 'conspiracy nut'. When a young man Chomsky virtually invented modern
    > linguistics. There is, surprisingly enough, even a useful wikki page
    > on Chomsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky


    What kind of bike does he ride, and how long is his commute? In anthro
    at school, our professor shared his lab notes about an ape subject named
    Nim Chimsky. Any relation?

    --ag
     
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