observation 'bout LA/IM margin (Was: Amrstrong's TdF margins)

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by shadan ardalan, Jul 20, 2004.

  1. the original posting got me to thinking.....

    given that Lance & Ivan have finished the mountain stages virtually
    together (i.e., discounting time bonuses), i just realized that
    Lance's margin this year may come *strickly* from time gained in time
    trials. what a very "Indurain" way to win. ;-)

    but seriously, unlike Indurain, Lance attacked on the climbs rather
    than just kept pace. however, i still find it interesting that this
    may be the first victory where Lance wasn't able to crush *all* his
    rivals on the hills as in years past.

    hmmmmmm, maybe he'll be pulling up a couple more riders like Basso en
    route to his 7th victory next year. it really does suck to be aging
    such that riders 6 years younger are finally able to keep up to you.
    i guess getting old is a biatch after all..... ;-)

    or worse, maybe it's not just an age thing, but also that younger
    riders are being trained in Lance's high cadence/pointed toe style,
    thus becoming more effective climbers. technique is just as important as strength.

    anyway, just some random thoughts.....


    "Jim Flom" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > There has been no evident decline in Lance's margins of victory (just last
    > year). Can't wait to see how this unfolds.
    >
    > 1999
    > 1. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal
    > 2. Alex Zülle (Swi) Banesto 7.37
    >
    > 2000
    > 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
    > 2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom 6.02
    >
    > 2001
    > 1. Lance Armstrong (USA)
    > 2. Jan Ullrich (Ger) 6.44
    >
    > 2002
    > 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
    > 2 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski 7.17
    >
    > 2003
    > 1 ARMSTRONG Lance
    > 2 ULLRICH Jan 01' 01"
    >
    > 2004
    > 1 ?
    > 2 ?
     
    Tags:


  2. Chris

    Chris Guest

    "shadan ardalan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > the original posting got me to thinking.....
    >
    > given that Lance & Ivan have finished the mountain stages virtually
    > together (i.e., discounting time bonuses), i just realized that
    > Lance's margin this year may come *strickly* from time gained in time
    > trials. what a very "Indurain" way to win. ;-)
    >
    > but seriously, unlike Indurain, Lance attacked on the climbs rather
    > than just kept pace.


    Not really. Indurain was more aggressive in several Tours than Lance has
    been so far this year. Lance did not attack a single time yet unless you
    count his breaks with Basso. From what I saw, they kept increasing the pace
    until it was down to the 2 of them (or the larger group today) and then
    Lance hung tight because he knew he could not drop Basso. If he had tried,
    he risked blowing up. I wish Basso had been on a team that beat Lance in the
    TTT so that Lance would have been compelled to attack Basso. That would have
    been quite a show.

    >however, i still find it interesting that this
    > may be the first victory where Lance wasn't able to crush *all* his
    > rivals on the hills as in years past.


    He did not crush anyone on the climbs last year either. Yes, it is very
    interesting that Lance gained "0" time on Basso on the road. It all came
    from TTT, prolog and bonus time.

    >
    > hmmmmmm, maybe he'll be pulling up a couple more riders like Basso en
    > route to his 7th victory next year. it really does suck to be aging
    > such that riders 6 years younger are finally able to keep up to you.
    > i guess getting old is a biatch after all..... ;-)
    >
    > or worse, maybe it's not just an age thing, but also that younger
    > riders are being trained in Lance's high cadence/pointed toe style,
    > thus becoming more effective climbers. technique is just as important as

    strength.

    Can we please stop this nonsense? Cadence must be optimized on an individual
    basis.

    >
    > anyway, just some random thoughts.....
    >
    >
    > "Jim Flom" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > There has been no evident decline in Lance's margins of victory (just

    last
    > > year). Can't wait to see how this unfolds.
    > >
    > > 1999
    > > 1. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal
    > > 2. Alex Zülle (Swi) Banesto 7.37
    > >
    > > 2000
    > > 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
    > > 2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom 6.02
    > >
    > > 2001
    > > 1. Lance Armstrong (USA)
    > > 2. Jan Ullrich (Ger)

    6.44
    > >
    > > 2002
    > > 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
    > > 2 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski 7.17
    > >
    > > 2003
    > > 1 ARMSTRONG Lance
    > > 2 ULLRICH Jan 01' 01"
    > >
    > > 2004
    > > 1 ?
    > > 2 ?
     
  3. Ken Papai

    Ken Papai Guest

    "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote ..
    >
    > "shadan ardalan" <[email protected]@posting.google.com...
    > > the original posting got me to thinking.....
    > >
    > > given that Lance & Ivan have finished the mountain stages virtually
    > > together (i.e., discounting time bonuses), i just realized that
    > > Lance's margin this year may come *strickly* from time gained in time
    > > trials. what a very "Indurain" way to win. ;-)
    > >
    > > but seriously, unlike Indurain, Lance attacked on the climbs rather
    > > than just kept pace.

    >
    > Not really. Indurain was more aggressive in several Tours than Lance has
    > been so far this year. Lance did not attack a single time yet unless you
    > count his breaks with Basso. From what I saw, they kept increasing the

    pace
    > until it was down to the 2 of them (or the larger group today) and then
    > Lance hung tight because he knew he could not drop Basso. If he had tried,


    Indurain didn't win mountain stages though in victories 4 and 5.
    Lance does.

    > he risked blowing up. I wish Basso had been on a team that beat Lance in

    the
    > TTT so that Lance would have been compelled to attack Basso. That would

    have
    > been quite a show.
    >
     
  4. Chris

    Chris Guest

    "Ken Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:zRjLc.131567$%[email protected]_s01...
    >
    > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote ..
    > >
    > > "shadan ardalan" <[email protected]@posting.google.com...
    > > > the original posting got me to thinking.....
    > > >
    > > > given that Lance & Ivan have finished the mountain stages virtually
    > > > together (i.e., discounting time bonuses), i just realized that
    > > > Lance's margin this year may come *strickly* from time gained in time
    > > > trials. what a very "Indurain" way to win. ;-)
    > > >
    > > > but seriously, unlike Indurain, Lance attacked on the climbs rather
    > > > than just kept pace.

    > >
    > > Not really. Indurain was more aggressive in several Tours than Lance has
    > > been so far this year. Lance did not attack a single time yet unless you
    > > count his breaks with Basso. From what I saw, they kept increasing the

    > pace
    > > until it was down to the 2 of them (or the larger group today) and then
    > > Lance hung tight because he knew he could not drop Basso. If he had

    tried,
    >
    > Indurain didn't win mountain stages though in victories 4 and 5.
    > Lance does.


    That is not what the topic was. Lance *was not* aggressive in this race and
    was only really aggressive last year at Luz-Ardiden (where Mig won in '90
    BTW). He *was* aggressive in many stages of his first 4 victories and in
    prior "Gen 1" Tours.

    Indurain won mountain stages in '89 and '90. He changed his style when he
    was going for GC wins and often gave stages to breakaway companions in order
    to conserve his energy and keep goodwill with riders that were able to
    assist him. That is not to say that he could have won any particular stage,
    but he rarely tried. When he did try it was no secret. When Leblanc outpaced
    him to Hautacam 1994 he made no effort to hide how pissed he was.

    Ken, it gets really boring when you look at each thread as an opportunity to
    heap praise on Armstrong. We all can see that he is the first and greatest
    Tour specialist of all time.

    > > he risked blowing up. I wish Basso had been on a team that beat Lance in

    > the
    > > TTT so that Lance would have been compelled to attack Basso. That would

    > have
    > > been quite a show.
    > >

    >
    >
     
  5. Donald Munro

    Donald Munro Guest

    shadan ardalan wrote:
    >> or worse, maybe it's not just an age thing, but also that younger
    >> riders are being trained in Lance's high cadence/pointed toe style,
    >> thus becoming more effective climbers. technique is just as important as

    > strength.


    Chris wrote:
    > Can we please stop this nonsense? Cadence must be optimized on an individual
    > basis.


    Agree, its getting as bad as that British dumbass who keeps on going
    on about pedalling and using your arms or whatever like Anquetil.
     
  6. gbeaskoetxea

    gbeaskoetxea Guest

    J. Brynnel claims Lance´s shape this year is better than 2003´s but not as
    good as 2002 that
    seems to be Lance´s absolute best year (sorry for Beloki).

    "shadan ardalan" <[email protected]> escribió en el mensaje
    news:[email protected]
    > the original posting got me to thinking.....
    >
    > given that Lance & Ivan have finished the mountain stages virtually
    > together (i.e., discounting time bonuses), i just realized that
    > Lance's margin this year may come *strickly* from time gained in time
    > trials. what a very "Indurain" way to win. ;-)
    >
    > but seriously, unlike Indurain, Lance attacked on the climbs rather
    > than just kept pace. however, i still find it interesting that this
    > may be the first victory where Lance wasn't able to crush *all* his
    > rivals on the hills as in years past.
    >
    > hmmmmmm, maybe he'll be pulling up a couple more riders like Basso en
    > route to his 7th victory next year. it really does suck to be aging
    > such that riders 6 years younger are finally able to keep up to you.
    > i guess getting old is a biatch after all..... ;-)
    >
    > or worse, maybe it's not just an age thing, but also that younger
    > riders are being trained in Lance's high cadence/pointed toe style,
    > thus becoming more effective climbers. technique is just as important as

    strength.
    >
    > anyway, just some random thoughts.....
    >
    >
    > "Jim Flom" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > There has been no evident decline in Lance's margins of victory (just

    last
    > > year). Can't wait to see how this unfolds.
    > >
    > > 1999
    > > 1. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal
    > > 2. Alex Zülle (Swi) Banesto 7.37
    > >
    > > 2000
    > > 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
    > > 2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom 6.02
    > >
    > > 2001
    > > 1. Lance Armstrong (USA)
    > > 2. Jan Ullrich (Ger)

    6.44
    > >
    > > 2002
    > > 1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
    > > 2 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski 7.17
    > >
    > > 2003
    > > 1 ARMSTRONG Lance
    > > 2 ULLRICH Jan 01' 01"
    > >
    > > 2004
    > > 1 ?
    > > 2 ?
     
  7. K. J. Papai

    K. J. Papai Guest

    "Chris" <.com>...
    > "Ken Papai" <[email protected]@attbi_s01...
    > >
    > > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote ..
    > > >
    > > > "shadan ardalan" <[email protected]@posting.google.com...
    > > > > the original posting got me to thinking.....
    > > > >
    > > > > given that Lance & Ivan have finished the mountain stages virtually
    > > > > together (i.e., discounting time bonuses), i just realized that
    > > > > Lance's margin this year may come *strickly* from time gained in time
    > > > > trials. what a very "Indurain" way to win. ;-)
    > > > >
    > > > > but seriously, unlike Indurain, Lance attacked on the climbs rather
    > > > > than just kept pace.
    > > >
    > > > Not really. Indurain was more aggressive in several Tours than Lance has
    > > > been so far this year. Lance did not attack a single time yet unless you
    > > > count his breaks with Basso. From what I saw, they kept increasing the

    > pace
    > > > until it was down to the 2 of them (or the larger group today) and then
    > > > Lance hung tight because he knew he could not drop Basso. If he had

    > tried,
    > >
    > > Indurain didn't win mountain stages though in victories 4 and 5.
    > > Lance does.

    >
    > That is not what the topic was. Lance *was not* aggressive in this race and
    > was only really aggressive last year at Luz-Ardiden (where Mig won in '90
    > BTW). He *was* aggressive in many stages of his first 4 victories and in
    > prior "Gen 1" Tours.
    >
    > Indurain won mountain stages in '89 and '90. He changed his style when he
    > was going for GC wins and often gave stages to breakaway companions in order
    > to conserve his energy and keep goodwill with riders that were able to
    > assist him. That is not to say that he could have won any particular stage,
    > but he rarely tried. When he did try it was no secret. When Leblanc outpaced
    > him to Hautacam 1994 he made no effort to hide how pissed he was.
    >
    > Ken, it gets really boring when you look at each thread as an opportunity to
    > heap praise on Armstrong. We all can see that he is the first and greatest
    > Tour specialist of all time.


    I cannot disagree with anything you wrote.

    Part of my over-the-top posting is to offset all the
    ill-conceived, mean-spirited posts from Haters in RBR.

    Each 5-time champ has their own faults, legends and glories.
    I know nothing about Anquitiel and not too much about Merckx except
    he won about 40% of the races he entered.

    Indurain was awesome but extremely boring the last two victories.
    Lance isn't boring by any stretch, especially after conquering
    L'Alpe yet again today.

    -Ken
     
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