odd shifter action on dawes super galaxy



S

Stan Cox

Guest
Hi all
A work colleague has just bought himself a new super galaxy and a
good looking thing it is. The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
Is this correct? can we adjust it so the levers act normally? It wont
affect my friend much as he hasnt used sti before but it would drive
me nuts. TIA

Stan Cox
 
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:

> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
> Is this correct?


That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way round.

JT
 
John Tomlinson wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>
>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
>> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
>> Is this correct?


If "up" means to larger sprocket then you're correct and maybe it's worth
getting a "normal" mech.

> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way
> round.


Only Shimano Rapid Rise or whatever they call them now have the derailleur
spring pulling the cage towards the largest sprocket. It's the other way
round for standard Shimano and Campag.

~PB
 
John Tomlinson wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>
>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
>> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
>> Is this correct?

>
> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way round.
>
> JT

No its not normal for shimano. its reversed to the normal way. These
shift more like campag in that the small lever moves towards the 34
and not towards the 11.


Stan Cox
 
Pete Biggs wrote:
> John Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>>
>>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
>>> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
>>> Is this correct?

>
> If "up" means to larger sprocket then you're correct and maybe it's worth
> getting a "normal" mech.
>
>> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way
>> round.

>
> Only Shimano Rapid Rise or whatever they call them now have the derailleur
> spring pulling the cage towards the largest sprocket. It's the other way
> round for standard Shimano and Campag.
>
> ~PB
>
>

Yes I assumed that the xt mech is "rapid rise" although the shimano
website shows it as low normal. Not quite sure what is going on.

Stan Cox
 
"John Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>
> > The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
> > sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
> > i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
> > down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
> > Is this correct?

>
> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way round.


Oh no it isn't! (Standard for Shimano that is).

--
Pete
http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/Stuff
 
John Tomlinson wrote:

> I think campag is the other way round.


Campag's shift finger lever indeed works the other way round when the same
type of mech is used.... sort of, because it has a thumb button instead
of another lever for the other direction.

~PB
 
in message <[email protected]>, Stan Cox
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Hi all
> A work colleague has just bought himself a new super galaxy and a
> good looking thing it is. The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
> Is this correct? can we adjust it so the levers act normally? It wont
> affect my friend much as he hasnt used sti before but it would drive
> me nuts. TIA


The 'rapid rise' shifting arrangement is indeed due to the springing of
the rear derailleur, and is allegedly designed that way because XTR
cassettes are flimsy and can get bent with conventional derailleurs.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for
murther
-- Roburt Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'
 
in message <[email protected]>, John Tomlinson
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>
>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
>> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
>> Is this correct?

>
> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way
> round.


It's only 'standard' on higher end Shimano mountain bike stuff. The
solution is to replace with SRAM.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Tony Blair's epitaph, #1: Tony Blair lies here.
Tony Blair's epitaph, #2: Trust me.
 
Stan Cox wrote:
> Yes I assumed that the xt mech is "rapid rise" although the shimano
> website shows it as low normal. Not quite sure what is going on.


Evans say it's rapid rise:
<URL:http://www.ctcshop.com/product.jsp?style=12682>

"Please note: This is a rapid rise rear mech which means that the spring
works the other way round to other rear mechs. This means that once
fitted your gears will work in reverse"

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
Subscribe to PlusNet <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/referral/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
 
in message <[email protected]>, Stan Cox
('[email protected]') wrote:

> John Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>>
>>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
>>> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
>>> Is this correct?

>>
>> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way
>> round.

>
> No its not normal for shimano. its reversed to the normal way. These
> shift more like campag in that the small lever moves towards the 34
> and not towards the 11.


Errr... you've never actually used a Campag shifter, have you?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig intentionally left blank ]
 
Danny Colyer wrote:

>
>
> Evans say it's rapid rise:
> <URL:http://www.ctcshop.com/product.jsp?style=12682>
>
> "Please note: This is a rapid rise rear mech which means that the spring
> works the other way round to other rear mechs. This means that once
> fitted your gears will work in reverse"
>


Ooh that's a nice trick. I've never had a reverse gear on a bike...

IGMC
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> The 'rapid rise' shifting arrangement is indeed due to the springing of

> the rear derailleur, and is allegedly designed that way because XTR
> cassettes are flimsy and can get bent with conventional derailleurs.


So I've been led to believe too. The larger sprockets could get bent using
thumb pressure to engage them if over zealous or the chain stationary
whereas the springs pressure is limited (obviously) when used to climb the
cassette.
AFAIK Shimano have since added another arm to the alu spider to overcome
this problem.
--
Pete
http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/Stuff
 
Al C-F wrote:
> Danny Colyer wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Evans say it's rapid rise:
>> <URL:http://www.ctcshop.com/product.jsp?style=12682>
>>
>> "Please note: This is a rapid rise rear mech which means that the
>> spring works the other way round to other rear mechs. This means that
>> once fitted your gears will work in reverse"
>>

>
> Ooh that's a nice trick. I've never had a reverse gear on a bike...
>
> IGMC

It often feels like i've got one :)

Stan Cox
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, Stan Cox
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> John Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>>>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>>>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one
>>>> shifts down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt
>>>> rear mech. Is this correct?
>>>
>>> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way
>>> round.

>>
>> No its not normal for shimano. its reversed to the normal way. These
>> shift more like campag in that the small lever moves towards the 34
>> and not towards the 11.

>
> Errr... you've never actually used a Campag shifter, have you?


I know what Stan means: Campag's lever behind brake lever shifts to larger
sprockets. But this is by the by and confusing the issue.

Do Shimano mech models not come in two versions? Normal and Rapid Rise?

~PB
 
Pete Biggs wrote:
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> in message <[email protected]>, Stan Cox
>> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>
>>> John Tomlinson wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>>>>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>>>>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one
>>>>> shifts down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt
>>>>> rear mech. Is this correct?
>>>> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way
>>>> round.
>>> No its not normal for shimano. its reversed to the normal way. These
>>> shift more like campag in that the small lever moves towards the 34
>>> and not towards the 11.

>> Errr... you've never actually used a Campag shifter, have you?

>
> I know what Stan means: Campag's lever behind brake lever shifts to larger
> sprockets. But this is by the by and confusing the issue.
>
> Do Shimano mech models not come in two versions? Normal and Rapid Rise?
>
> ~PB
>
>

Pete. I think the answer to this is that as my friend has never used
sti he will never know the difference so I should just shut up & let
him enjoy his new bike :)

Stan Cox

Actually He's right. I did try a Campy shifter once & hated the thumb
button thing so went with shimano, so I probably have forgotten which
lever does what. I realise that it works fine for other people and I
have no intention of starting another Campag-Shimano flame war. :)
 
On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 07:15:49 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:

> John Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>>
>>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
>>> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
>>> Is this correct?

>>
>> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way round.
>>
>> JT

> No its not normal for shimano. its reversed to the normal way. These
> shift more like campag in that the small lever moves towards the 34
> and not towards the 11.
>
>
> Stan Cox


Now I am getting confused. I took the words _shifts up the cassette_ to
mean shifts up the gears i.e. to a smaller sprocket on the cassette. That
is what my 105 STIs do. I have ridden a campaq equipped bike once and
remember getting confused because everything was the _wrong way round_ and
I shifted up when I meant to shift down.

JT
 
"John Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> Now I am getting confused. I took the words _shifts up the cassette_ to
> mean shifts up the gears i.e. to a smaller sprocket on the cassette. That
> is what my 105 STIs do. I have ridden a campaq equipped bike once and
> remember getting confused because everything was the _wrong way round_ and
> I shifted up when I meant to shift down.


I have Ultegra shifters and use Ultegra & XT rear mechs, pressing the brake
lever inward with fingers moves the chain up the cassette to a larger cog
which creates a lower gear ratio:). Pressing a smaller lever situated
inside of the brake lever releases a pawl in turn releasing cable which
allows my mechs, under spring tension, to drop down the cassette to a
smaller cog which creates a higher ratio. The brake lever is dual function.
My bruvvers Campag has a smaller lever situated inside of the brake lever
which when pressed inward with fingers moves the chain up the cassette to a
larger cog....On the inside of the hood is a very small lever which when
pressed by thumb releases a pawl.......
The brake lever is purely for braking.

So in both cases the larger lever (regardless of whether it's the brake
lever or the inset lever) is used to move the chain up the cassette with
spring tension used to return the chain down the cassette (thinking in terms
of hills rather than ratios).
However, as has been mentioned, XTR cassettes have cogs mounted onto a
central aluminium spider much like the way chain rings are mounted. A
minimum number of arms were used for weight reduction. Unfortunately it was
possible to apply sufficient leverage using the foregoing system to buckle
the larger sprockets as the chain pressed against them on its way up the
block. Particularly if you're clumsy enough to shift with a stationary chain
:-(
To alleviate this problem Shimano reversed the rear mech action for certain
models so that spring pressure causes the chain to climb the block ruling
out operators leverage effects and the possibility of overdoing it.
Putting one of these mechs on a bike will cause your shifter to work the
opposite to most others, (most others = "normal").
--
Pete
http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/Stuff
 
in message <[email protected]>, John Tomlinson
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 07:15:49 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>
>> John Tomlinson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000, Stan Cox wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only odd thing is that as it has tiagra
>>>> sti levers and an xt rear mech the action of the levers is reversed
>>>> i.e. the small lever shifts up the cassette and the large one shifts
>>>> down. I assume this is due to the spring action in the xt rear mech.
>>>> Is this correct?
>>>
>>> That is the standard for shimano. I think campag is the other way
>>> round.
>>>

>> No its not normal for shimano. its reversed to the normal way. These
>> shift more like campag in that the small lever moves towards the 34
>> and not towards the 11.

>
> Now I am getting confused. I took the words _shifts up the cassette_ to
> mean shifts up the gears i.e. to a smaller sprocket on the cassette.
> That is what my 105 STIs do. I have ridden a campaq equipped bike once
> and remember getting confused because everything was the _wrong way
> round_ and I shifted up when I meant to shift down.


No. All Shimano integrated road groupsets shift the same direction all
Campag ones do, in as much as the larger lever on the shifter lifts onto
bigger cogs and the smaller lever releases the ratchet to step down to
smaller cogs, for the simple and obvious reason you need the bigger
lever - with more leverage - to compress the spring vs the lever you
need to release the ratchet. On some Shimano systems the larger lever is
the same lever as the brake lever. What's odd about this particular
Galaxy is that it has paired a road shifter with a 'rapid rise' MTB rear
derailleur, leading to arsy-versy shifting.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
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