Oh - and now it begins

[MJtje]

Spot on WBT goes fast in his conclusions. Then again I think he likes all the LA fans to get ******......right WBT boy

And lets not forget there is still a 55km TT in the end were he will put 3/4 min in most of his rivals except Ulle.....and ofcourse VINO. Although with that many attacks from Vino, I can't imagine he has much left in his tank!

That could be the problem of Vino: what IF Vino attacks very hard and Ulle is left alone? Will T-Mobile switch roles....will Vino sit up? And what IF he attacks tuesday multiple times, that doesn't mean he can do that again and again on each mountain stage?? There are many questions..........the tour isn't over till the end!

Like LA said: 'yellow matters in Paris'!

I'd have to agree that the criticism of Armstrong seems overstated. I suspect he's vulnerable this year, but less because of his own weakness than the fact that all of the other pre-race GC favorites seem to be on form this year and ready to race hard.


WBT: your posts are interesting. You would discount 6 years of TdF dominance and declare that yesterday's stage showed the "true Armstrong" when he finished in a time equal to his major rivals, despite being the only one isolated?

Believe me, I'm as happy as you are that it looks like this Tour may be closely contested after all, but there's no denying that the man has won 6 straight TdFs and still leads every major rival in the GC race this year. There's a long way to go before you can proclaim that the King is dead and be taken seriously.

For now . . . .

 

[azdroptop]

What ? Brining Kloden closer on GC so he has to worry about more people ? Very embarrssing... whats even more embarrssing is we now have seen what sort cyclist Armstrong is without a team.... p*ssweak..... should clear all the issues on the 'Is the Lance the greatest' forum.... he's not........

Everyone take Tuesday off work and stay by the TV.......

You seem to be drawing a lot of conslusions from one stage. He LET Kodin get away because he doesn't matter in the overall race not to mention that he shut down all the other attacks on his own. Discovery had a bad day, but to say Lance is weak on his own? Was he weak when he put over 50 secs on anyone who has a chance in the race on the first day? There are many mountain stages left and we will all see how weak Lance is. LOL Greatest bike rider, probably not. Best Tour De France rider. Yes. 6 in a row speaks for itself...

 

[Cubflyer]

You're so right.... so what your saying is that they said lets leave our leader on his own with 3 members from T-Mobile on the final climb of the day to lull T-Mobile into a false sence of security for coming stages......

If thats not the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard since some said Iraq and WMD.....

What are you guys on ? He got beat fair and sqaure and Lance has nothing without his team... we are now seeing the true cyclist he is... not that good.....

Ok, WBT, you're right. Lance is done. Finished. He's the worst cyclist to ever pull on a pair of weazel squeezers and pedal a bike in the TdF. He's not shown any dominance by winning 6 straight. Yup. You're brilliant in your dazed musings. If ignorance is bliss, you must be Mr. Sunshine. All in good fun, of course, all in good fun. I can appreciate that you cheer for someone other than Lance, but to defame him, slander him, and generally disregard facts is weak on your part. I believe that you can do better to state your case for other riders' strengths without maliciously attacking Lance. Let the TdF contenders attack Lance; you can sit on the couch and watch if you'd like.

Lachlan

 

[Lonnie Utah]

I had a long time to think about the past two stages on my ride today. Given Disco's total control of the Peleton today, I think yesterday was just a tactical "mistake" by them. My take on yesterday was that T-mobile caught discovery off gaurd. The pace got whipped up quickly and the disco domstiques were not in position and got dropped. When T-mobile realized this, they threw everything they had at Lance. He survived just fine. Only Kloden made time on him. Even if they were trying to make him work extra hard, you have to ask how effective that is given the day off on Monday.

Tuesday, that's when we'll find out much, much more.

L

 

[thebluetrain]

Ok, WBT, you're right. Lance is done. Finished. He's the worst cyclist to ever pull on a pair of weazel squeezers and pedal a bike in the TdF. He's not shown any dominance by winning 6 straight. Yup. You're brilliant in your dazed musings. If ignorance is bliss, you must be Mr. Sunshine. All in good fun, of course, all in good fun. I can appreciate that you cheer for someone other than Lance, but to defame him, slander him, and generally disregard facts is weak on your part. I believe that you can do better to state your case for other riders' strengths without maliciously attacking Lance. Let the TdF contenders attack Lance; you can sit on the couch and watch if you'd like.

Lachlan

That is how WBT makes his living on this forum. Just wait til he starts b!tching about Bush, US politics, and WMD. Just wait till you meet his twin brother, Flyer.

 

[ilpirata]

I think you are on the money MJtje. I look for attack from Beloki, Heras, Botero on last climb. I am curious to see how well the big boys resist (LA, JU, Basso, Kloden, Vino). And also if Moreau will have intention to fight for GC. Will some of the other boys stay in contention or surprise(Voigt, Garzelli, Pellezotti, Frigo, etc)

It could also have been that mountain.......those mountain goats on LA's team are not made for going at 40 km over a cat 2 mountain!!! Vino and Ulle are more made for a cat 2 climb with a lower gradient then a HC climb. Tuesday will reveal everything..............!

 

[limerickman]

But today, we got to see Armstrong who is the best TDF cyclist ever , ride with the boys.....

For the umpteenth time : Merckx is the greatest TDF rider ever.

Your boy is a good TDF rider, but not in the same class as EM.

 

[limerickman]

That is how WBT makes his living on this forum. Just wait til he starts b!tching about Bush, US politics, and WMD. Just wait till you meet his twin brother, Flyer.

Calm down there - as Miguel Indurain would say, "Tranquillo".

Yer getting yer criticisms and yer projecting them on to politics and Iraq.

Let's keep the politics and cycling separate : this thread contains some good stuff.
No need to bring politics in to it.

If you want to talk politics - go to the Soapbox, there's a whole list of threads there suitable for everyones political views.

 

[strummer_fan]

For the umpteenth time : Merckx is the greatest TDF rider ever.

Your boy is a good TDF rider, but not in the same class as EM.

In 1969, at age 24, Merckx took all of the Jerseys. Mountains, Points, Yellow, the whole lot. LA just isn't in the same realm.

In a recent NPR Interview, LA admitted that he is nothing like Merckx.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4277197

Cheers...

 

[whiteboytrash]

Very sensitive bunch you lot.... what I saying was that Armstrong is vulnerable when on his own not that he is p*ssweak in general..... brave man to say that 6 TDF’s is p*ssweak…….

I think its fair for me to respond to posts that people actually think that it was Discovery strategy for the team to drop back on Saturday to leave Lance on his own...... I mean really do you honestly think this is what happened ? if Lance's loses 10 minutes on a climb to Vino will that be strategy as well ? I think all of us need to look at it more objectively... seriously some of you cannot honestly believe that this was a masterstroke movement by Dicso… T-Mobile already know Armstrong is a strong rider with 6 tours under his belt.. they are not going to think because he struggled without his team for one day that the Tour is sown up for a Vino Ullrich exact time double……

I will also say that everyone says Discovery controlled the peleton today (Sunday) and that they did but at what physical cost... no other team was prepared to go up front... CSC did not have to (as Voigt was up the road), T-Mobile showed no interest... Discovery rode tempo but this takes some effort as Lance said on Saturday evening.... will they just keep riding tempo until Paris ? It’s the fastest Tour in history but you will also note that no other team has any interest in leading or controlling the peleton apart from the sprint teams in the last 40-50k’s on flat stages….

Looking at the GC lance still has 60-90 seconds on all his major rivals and they will probably need to be ahead by 2 minutes come the final time trial to have a chance of winning so that’s a 3.30s turn-around.... that’s a whole lotta minutes.... so prediction is we will start seeing some attacks in unexpected places next week to gain these margins...... we should also remember Vino had some help on Saturday from some friends in the peleton…. Remember what I said about respect and that Armstrong is not back next year for pay back…….. everybody wants the king’s blood and they can smell it now….. its going to be an old fashion boxing match next week without the gloves….

WBT out.

Ok, WBT, you're right. Lance is done. Finished. He's the worst cyclist to ever pull on a pair of weazel squeezers and pedal a bike in the TdF. He's not shown any dominance by winning 6 straight. Yup. You're brilliant in your dazed musings. If ignorance is bliss, you must be Mr. Sunshine. All in good fun, of course, all in good fun. I can appreciate that you cheer for someone other than Lance, but to defame him, slander him, and generally disregard facts is weak on your part. I believe that you can do better to state your case for other riders' strengths without maliciously attacking Lance. Let the TdF contenders attack Lance; you can sit on the couch and watch if you'd like.

Lachlan

 

[wolfix]

For the umpteenth time : Merckx is the greatest TDF rider ever.

Your boy is a good TDF rider, but not in the same class as EM.

I am a Merckx fan. I followed the TDF when Merckx rode, even though the coverage was limited. I had a good library of cycling books that targeted the TDF from 1965-1980.I spent my college years reading them when I should have been doing other things. Eddy was great.
I am not a huge fan of Armstrongs. I am a fan of LeMond, Kelly, Zabel, Cipo, and Knettemann. I am not a big fan of the TDF in the context of 'Being the Greatest Cycling Event of the Year." That title goes to either the World Championships { original time slots} or to RAGBRAI. But Lance has done everything possible in the most professional way to win the TDF. I would have loved to have seen a 6-time winner also ride the rest of the season , however that is not the way it is.
But , the only thing Merckx did to set him apart from Armstrong was his solo wins. They were a piece of art. But the TDF has changed. I believe '"big" solo wins by the gc riders might be impossible today. {Which brings the boring factor into play. And why is this?? } The criticism of Lance today on forums such as this, based on his tactics and strong team could have applied to Merckx. The criticism of Lance being a doper could be applied to Merckx. {Please Flyer, this is not an invitation to post in this thread.}
Is Armstrong a better TDF rider then Merckx? Is Merckx a better TDF then Armstrong ? Based on a single TDF year we will never know. Merckx has the advantage of the past working in his favor as this argument goes. Legends grow with time. The same will happpen with Armstrong. Meckx also has the advantage of being European. I hate the fact that nationalism sometimes dictates the picking of a favorite rider. I am guilty of that myself. Stragely, I have found myself not following the careers of the Americans except LeMonds and Armstrongs as closely as I follow others.
I base my feelings that Armstrong is the "greatest" TDF rider in the fact he has won 6. Possibly 7. {Basso will have the final shot at Armstong though. T-Mobile mangement will probably pull Vino or Ullrich if they actually take the yellow. Godefrood will think it is tactically smart to send the yellow jersey rider home before the end of the Tour to send a message to all his other riders not to win.I was such a Ullrich fan }
Also, this Armstrong vs Merckx argument is not official unless we have long pulls at the Guiness tap.
"Only arguments made over Guiness are legal & official arguments." Somewhere in Irish Law this was written before my time.
I also have a quote somewhere where Meckx acknowledges Armstrong as the best overall TDF winner. So, in a official court of arguments you have the right of responding. What is your reasoning as to why Merckx is the greatest???? { Thank god you are not English and trying to put Tom Simpson in this argument }

 

[limerickman]

I am a Merckx fan. I followed the TDF when Merckx rode, even though the coverage was limited. I had a good library of cycling books that targeted the TDF from 1965-1980.I spent my college years reading them when I should have been doing other things. Eddy was great.
I am not a huge fan of Armstrongs. I am a fan of LeMond, Kelly, Zabel, Cipo, and Knettemann. I am not a big fan of the TDF in the context of 'Being the Greatest Cycling Event of the Year." That title goes to either the World Championships { original time slots} or to RAGBRAI. But Lance has done everything possible in the most professional way to win the TDF. I would have loved to have seen a 6-time winner also ride the rest of the season , however that is not the way it is.
But , the only thing Merckx did to set him apart from Armstrong was his solo wins. They were a piece of art. But the TDF has changed. I believe '"big" solo wins by the gc riders might be impossible today. {Which brings the boring factor into play. And why is this?? } The criticism of Lance today on forums such as this, based on his tactics and strong team could have applied to Merckx. The criticism of Lance being a doper could be applied to Merckx. {Please Flyer, this is not an invitation to post in this thread.}
Is Armstrong a better TDF rider then Merckx? Is Merckx a better TDF then Armstrong ? Based on a single TDF year we will never know. Merckx has the advantage of the past working in his favor as this argument goes. Legends grow with time. The same will happpen with Armstrong. Meckx also has the advantage of being European. I hate the fact that nationalism sometimes dictates the picking of a favorite rider. I am guilty of that myself. Stragely, I have found myself not following the careers of the Americans except LeMonds and Armstrongs as closely as I follow others.
I base my feelings that Armstrong is the "greatest" TDF rider in the fact he has won 6. Possibly 7. {Basso will have the final shot at Armstong though. T-Mobile mangement will probably pull Vino or Ullrich if they actually take the yellow. Godefrood will think it is tactically smart to send the yellow jersey rider home before the end of the Tour to send a message to all his other riders not to win.I was such a Ullrich fan }
Also, this Armstrong vs Merckx argument is not official unless we have long pulls at the Guiness tap.
"Only arguments made over Guiness are legal & official arguments." Somewhere in Irish Law this was written before my time.
I also have a quote somewhere where Meckx acknowledges Armstrong as the best overall TDF winner. So, in a official court of arguments you have the right of responding. What is your reasoning as to why Merckx is the greatest???? { Thank god you are not English and trying to put Tom Simpson in this argument }

I trust that we're all fans here, Wolf.
Yep the EM V LA debate will no doubt rage : you're a man who (like myself) seems to be a CYCLING FAN, rather than a supporter of one man or other.
Of course, we all have our own favourites and we all want them do beat the other guys.

My reason for EM being the greatest ? Well I was lucky enough to cycle with the Roche Brothers as amateur team mates, years ago.
I am on nodding and acquaintance terms with Sean Kelly.
Martin Earley is a good friend.
I spoke to these guys at various stages : and each of them, at different times during the "Hinault is greatest era" and "Indurain is greatest era" and the current "lance is greatest era", all say that EM is at a level beyond anything or anyone else in the sport.

To me Kelly is the greatest, but I know objectively that Sean's palmares is not even close to EM.
I was lucky enough to ask Sean's opinion about who he considered the greatest and he replied immediately "Merckx ! - and there is no doubt about that".
So if that;s good enough for SK, it's good enough for me.

But the record books show just how good EM was too.

 

[wolfix]

I trust that we're all fans here, Wolf.
Yep the EM V LA debate will no doubt rage : you're a man who (like myself) seems to be a CYCLING FAN, rather than a supporter of one man or other.
Of course, we all have our own favourites and we all want them do beat the other guys.

My reason for EM being the greatest ? Well I was lucky enough to cycle with the Roche Brothers as amateur team mates, years ago.
I am on nodding and acquaintance terms with Sean Kelly.
Martin Earley is a good friend.
I spoke to these guys at various stages : and each of them, at different times during the "Hinault is greatest era" and "Indurain is greatest era" and the current "lance is greatest era", all say that EM is at a level beyond anything or anyone else in the sport.

To me Kelly is the greatest, but I know objectively that Sean's palmares is not even close to EM.
I was lucky enough to ask Sean's opinion about who he considered the greatest and he replied immediately "Merckx ! - and there is no doubt about that".
So if that;s good enough for SK, it's good enough for me.

But the record books show just how good EM was too.

Our backgrounds seem to be similar, just in different places. No argument from me saying that Merckxz is the greatest rider . But , to confine the argument into "TDF rider" only , what is your reasoning for Merckx to be the greatest TDF rider ??? Kelly is one of my all-time favorites, but athletes always seem to say that a particular athlete that was great in their lifetime is always "the greatest." But then Kelly was there then, and he is here now. So, he does have an insight.
The record books will show Merckx to be the greatest all time. The Lemond era seemed to bring a different aspect to the Tour. Lemond made the Tour the "International Bicycle Race", the only race people concentrate on outside the borders of Europe. It is a good argument in that alone to say whether or not that was a good change for the Tour.

But I am a big fan and a collector of Ti-Raleigh things . So , I have to throw in Ti-Raleigh as being the greatest team and riding the greatest bikes of that era........ 'Let the games begin."

 

[limerickman]

Our backgrounds seem to be similar, just in different places. No argument from me saying that Merckxz is the greatest rider . But , to confine the argument into "TDF rider" only , what is your reasoning for Merckx to be the greatest TDF rider ??? Kelly is one of my all-time favorites, but athletes always seem to say that a particular athlete that was great in their lifetime is always "the greatest." But then Kelly was there then, and he is here now. So, he does have an insight.
The record books will show Merckx to be the greatest all time. The Lemond era seemed to bring a different aspect to the Tour. Lemond made the Tour the "International Bicycle Race", the only race people concentrate on outside the borders of Europe. It is a good argument in that alone to say whether or not that was a good change for the Tour.

But I am a big fan and a collector of Ti-Raleigh things . So , I have to throw in Ti-Raleigh as being the greatest team and riding the greatest bikes of that era........ 'Let the games begin."

Ti-Raleigh : Jan Raas, Peter Post & Co : they were THE team when I started out cycling.
They practically won every and anything in their pomp.
Then it moved to the super team of Renault of Cyrille Guimard and so on.

For me the 1969 achievement that Strummer referred earlier, too indicates just how good EM was as a TDF rider.
90 days in yellow ; 35 stage wins : and then throw in all the rest of the races that he was winning at the same time, the case for EM is very compelling.

I don't discount what LA has achieved : but he doesn't "race" all year and even in dominating the TDF, he doesn't pulverise the field like EM seemed to do.

 

[Cubflyer]

Very sensitive bunch you lot.... what I saying was that Armstrong is vulnerable when on his own not that he is p*ssweak in general..... brave man to say that 6 TDF’s is p*ssweak…….

I think its fair for me to respond to posts that people actually think that it was Discovery strategy for the team to drop back on Saturday to leave Lance on his own...... I mean really do you honestly think this is what happened ? if Lance's loses 10 minutes on a climb to Vino will that be strategy as well ? I think all of us need to look at it more objectively... seriously some of you cannot honestly believe that this was a masterstroke movement by Dicso… T-Mobile already know Armstrong is a strong rider with 6 tours under his belt.. they are not going to think because he struggled without his team for one day that the Tour is sown up for a Vino Ullrich exact time double……

I will also say that everyone says Discovery controlled the peleton today (Sunday) and that they did but at what physical cost... no other team was prepared to go up front... CSC did not have to (as Voigt was up the road), T-Mobile showed no interest... Discovery rode tempo but this takes some effort as Lance said on Saturday evening.... will they just keep riding tempo until Paris ? It’s the fastest Tour in history but you will also note that no other team has any interest in leading or controlling the peleton apart from the sprint teams in the last 40-50k’s on flat stages….

Looking at the GC lance still has 60-90 seconds on all his major rivals and they will probably need to be ahead by 2 minutes come the final time trial to have a chance of winning so that’s a 3.30s turn-around.... that’s a whole lotta minutes.... so prediction is we will start seeing some attacks in unexpected places next week to gain these margins...... we should also remember Vino had some help on Saturday from some friends in the peleton…. Remember what I said about respect and that Armstrong is not back next year for pay back…….. everybody wants the king’s blood and they can smell it now….. its going to be an old fashion boxing match next week without the gloves….

WBT out.

Great post. Seriously.

Lachlan

 

[DmanSlam]

Here in the USA, there is a magazine called CSA (Cycle Sport America). A recent edition profiled Eddie Mercx (EM). As I read that magazine, it provided more and more evidence for the "greatest cyclist ever". And I always had the impression that EM was the greatest cyclist, but I learned more about his accomplishments, and his rivals. For me, it's not a debate.


Wolf, I want to understand a comment you made. Is there more to the story here?

"T-Mobile mangement will probably pull Vino or Ullrich if they actually take the yellow. Godefrood will think it is tactically smart to send the yellow jersey rider home before the end of the Tour to send a message to all his other riders not to win.I was such a Ullrich fan }"

 

[azdroptop]

I wish I had been around when Merckx was in his prime. I guess I was basing my Armstrong is the best TDF rider on his domination over the past 6 years and his 6 in a row. Unfortunately I didn't get to see some of the other greats ride. It's a tough argument, who's the best that is, just like in any other sport. Armstrong has definately brought the TDF to a new level with his 'complete' aproach to the TDF. I.e. Wind tunnel testing, etc.

http://www.abc.net.au/sport/content/200407/s1162272.htm Great link on Merckx

 

[wolfix]

Here in the USA, there is a magazine called CSA (Cycle Sport America). A recent edition profiled Eddie Mercx (EM). As I read that magazine, it provided more and more evidence for the "greatest cyclist ever". And I always had the impression that EM was the greatest cyclist, but I learned more about his accomplishments, and his rivals. For me, it's not a debate.


Wolf, I want to understand a comment you made. Is there more to the story here?

"T-Mobile mangement will probably pull Vino or Ullrich if they actually take the yellow. Godefrood will think it is tactically smart to send the yellow jersey rider home before the end of the Tour to send a message to all his other riders not to win.I was such a Ullrich fan }"

At one time I was a Ullrich fan. But I feel that riding for T-Mobile has not been the best choice for his career. I do not understand their approach to the Tour. My comment was an attempt at sarcasm towards Godefrood. I do think this is the best chance [2005] at winning the tour in the last 5 years. And it will be Vino. My reasoning is as follows..... Vino probably will not listen to Godefrood. He may attack Lance and that seems to be the only way that T-Mobile can win. And maybe Ullrich will benifit from Vino's attacks. Godefrood's previous strategy is not the answer.

 

[patch70]

Godefrood's previous strategy is not the answer.

The silly strategy of not taking drugs?

 

[Eldron]

Eldrons rather late 2 cents worth:

DSC's lack of support for Lance on the first real climb was DEFINITELY not a tactic. Putting all your eggs in one basket (by forcing your 2nd or 3rd GC rider to give away minutes) in the hopes of lulling the opposition into a false sense of security is crazy.

Lance is NOT done - neither is Jan.

The TdF has only started - with the poor evidince we have there is no way we can discount any of the 34 that finished in the group or say who is going to win. In 10 days we may have a better idea - or at least the winners list will have dropped to 5 or 10.

I have a feeling this is going to be the best Tour in the last 10 years!!!!