Oh dear... cycling "advocate" on Radio Wales



in message <[email protected]>, Tom Crispin
('[email protected]') wrote:

> So what would be your method to increase the numbers of utility
> cyclists?


* Incentives and training for public sector staff to use cycles both in
travelling to work and in travelling for work

* Secure cycle parking in every public carpark, as many spaces for bikes as
for cars, as a condition of planning consent

* Secure cycle parking at every newly developed workplace, with spaces for
at least 50% of projected employees, as a condition of planning consent

* Training and 'buddy' schemes

* Liability: motorist should be by default liable in all motor
vehicle/cycle collisions unless (s)he can prove otherwise

* Speed limits: Normally 20mph in all urban areas except arterial roads and
through routes

* Regular 'car free' days

People start cycling when they see other people cycling. Probably the best
thing you could do with the money is the incentives and training to get
public sector workers onto bikes. People are deterred from cycling at
least partly because there's nowhere safe to store their bike at their
destination. Secure parking is the second biggest priority.

Farcilities come a very, very long way down the list.

> At first glance Cycling England seem to be putting forward
> a very decent proposal:
>
> Of a £70m pa proposed budget -
> 17% on child cyclist training


good

> 14% on school champions


excellent

> 14% on school cycle links


plausible

> 7% on recreation and sport programmes


good

> 14% on a major showcase city (Birmingham?)


total waste or money unless there is already a strong local cycling
culture - I don't know Birmingham but I've never heard that of it.

> 14% on 16 showcase towns


as above.

Empty farcilities make motorists more hostile to cyclists on the road, as I
know to my cost. But I know of few segregated facilities which are
suitable for conventional road bikes (those in Dumfries mostly are, to be
fair) and none on which it is usually possible to cycle safely at
reasonable speed. So putting in new farcilities without a strong existing
population of cyclists will make cycling less pleasant and safe, not more,
and is likely to lower cyclist numbers. And, of course, unless building a
new town on a green field site, it usually won't be possible to avoid
regular junctions between the 'segregated' network and the roads, which
are widely recognised as significantly more dangerous than conventional
road junctions.

Also I note there's no funding in there for training adult cyclists, which
I would see as a very high priority.

There are various schemes where motorists can choose to go on some sort of
advanced training or safety awareness course instead of paying a fine. It
would be really good if, when the police hand out fixed penalty fines for
cyclists jumping red lights or cycling on the pavement, there was an
attached voucher so that (after paying the fine - the whole point of fixed
penalty notices is they're cheap to administer) the cyclist could go on a
free approved course and on completion of it reclaim the amount of the
fine. That would be one good way to turn POBs into competent cyclists.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Let's have a moment of silence for all those Americans who are stuck
;; in traffic on their way to the gym to ride the stationary bicycle.
;; Rep. Earl Blumenauer (Dem, OR)
 
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:10:49 +0100, Simon Brooke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>* Liability: motorist should be by default liable in all motor
> vehicle/cycle collisions unless (s)he can prove otherwise


I keep seeing this, but why? There seem to be a lot more
stupid/dangerous cyclists out there than car drivers, and I say that
as a cyclist.

Granted, one can do much more damage (both in a human and a property
sense) with a car than with a bicycle, which might be why third-party
insurance is mandatory for the former but not the latter. However,
that doesn't prevent the fact that I (when driving) would not like to
be held responsible for damage to my vehicle (or worse, self-inflicted
damage to the cyclist and his bicycle) caused entirely by an errant
cyclist.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.
 
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:36:22 GMT, [email protected] (Neil
Williams) wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:10:49 +0100, Simon Brooke
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>* Liability: motorist should be by default liable in all motor
>> vehicle/cycle collisions unless (s)he can prove otherwise

>
>I keep seeing this, but why? There seem to be a lot more
>stupid/dangerous cyclists out there than car drivers, and I say that
>as a cyclist.
>
>Granted, one can do much more damage (both in a human and a property
>sense) with a car than with a bicycle, which might be why third-party
>insurance is mandatory for the former but not the latter. However,
>that doesn't prevent the fact that I (when driving) would not like to
>be held responsible for damage to my vehicle (or worse, self-inflicted
>damage to the cyclist and his bicycle) caused entirely by an errant
>cyclist.


The law can (and should) be drafted so the motorist is not liable if the
cyclist is at fault for causing the collision. France, for one, does
this.
 
in message <[email protected]>, Neil Williams
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:10:49 +0100, Simon Brooke
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>* Liability: motorist should be by default liable in all motor
>> vehicle/cycle collisions unless (s)he can prove otherwise

>
> I keep seeing this, but why? There seem to be a lot more
> stupid/dangerous cyclists out there than car drivers, and I say that
> as a cyclist.


True, and I don't disagree. But the duty of care must be related to the
potential to do damage. A motor car is a very dangerous machine, and we
treat its use much too casually. And, furthermore, research shows that in
a very high proportion of cycle/motor vehicle collisions, it is the driver
of the motor vehicle that is at fault.

We need to persuade motorists to be more careful around cyclists. I
regularly encounter drivers who drive too close too fast, and quite often
encounter drivers who are actively aggressive. If they knew that any bump
was going to hit their no-claims bonus, they would tend to be a little
more careful.

And that isn't simply important because it would save a few injuries and
deaths. It's still more important because it would improve the general
standard of driver behaviour, making the road a more comfortable place for
less experienced cyclists.

None of this excuses bad cyclist behaviour, which I agree is also too
common.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.
 
Neil Williams wrote:
> Granted, one can do much more damage (both in a human and a property
> sense) with a car than with a bicycle, which might be why third-party
> insurance is mandatory for the former but not the latter. However,
> that doesn't prevent the fact that I (when driving) would not like to
> be held responsible for damage to my vehicle (or worse, self-inflicted
> damage to the cyclist and his bicycle) caused entirely by an errant
> cyclist.


If a cyclist hits your car due entirely to his own error, your car may
be damaged but you are unlikely to be, and should have little difficulty
in demonstrating that you are not to blame.

In the reverse situation, the cyclist may be lying injured or
unconscious in the middle of the road and is not in nearly as convenient
a position to take photos of the damage, look for witnesses who are
willing to make statements, etc.
 
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:11:45 +0100, Marc Brett
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The law can (and should) be drafted so the motorist is not liable if the
>cyclist is at fault for causing the collision. France, for one, does
>this.


In which case, surely the situation should remain as at present, with
the "default" being 50-50?

Why should the car driver have to prove he was not being stupid? Why
should each side not simply fairly argue their case?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.
 
[email protected] wrote:
..
>
> If a cyclist hits your car due entirely to his own error, your car may
> be damaged but you are unlikely to be, and should have little
> difficulty in demonstrating that you are not to blame.


ie a reversal of the innocent until proven guilty/liable rule

pk
 
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:11:52 GMT, [email protected] (Neil
Williams) wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:11:45 +0100, Marc Brett
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The law can (and should) be drafted so the motorist is not liable if the
>>cyclist is at fault for causing the collision. France, for one, does
>>this.

>
>In which case, surely the situation should remain as at present, with
>the "default" being 50-50?
>
>Why should the car driver have to prove he was not being stupid? Why
>should each side not simply fairly argue their case?


Because the operator of the heavy, fast, powerful machinery brings all
the danger in a confrontation with vulnerable road users.

In any other area of life, it would be seen as perfectly natural for the
presumption of liability to rest with the endangering party -- fireworks
exhibitors, demolition crews, train operators, playgroups who run bouncy
castles.

Victims of these businesses would not have to sue in order to get a
default payment out of the insurance company. If there is a dispute, a
judge can sort it out.

Yet pedestrians and cyclists have to sue if they are the victims of a
collision with a car! It's perverse, and needs to be brought in line
with the rest of civilised society.
 
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:13:12 +0100, "p.k." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> If a cyclist hits your car due entirely to his own error, your car may
>> be damaged but you are unlikely to be, and should have little
>> difficulty in demonstrating that you are not to blame.

>
>ie a reversal of the innocent until proven guilty/liable rule


A canard. This does not affect criminal matters, so all parties remain
innocent until proven guilty, regardless of the laws affecting
liability.

Strict liability only affects the default liability situation, before
anyone goes to court. In a courtroom, a judge can decide liability
however she likes, as is the case today.

At present, the odds are stacked against vulnerable road users, who are
forced to sue in order to get compensation, at a time when they may be
recovering from serious injuries and not have a lot of evidence
collected to bolster their side of the story. Despite motorists being
the cause of most collisions with VRUs, they are seldom sued and
lawsuits are often dropped. It's an intolerable hurdle which further
victimises the innocent.
 
Marc Brett wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:11:52 GMT, [email protected] (Neil
> Williams) wrote:
>
>
>>On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:11:45 +0100, Marc Brett
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The law can (and should) be drafted so the motorist is not liable if the
>>>cyclist is at fault for causing the collision. France, for one, does
>>>this.

>>
>>In which case, surely the situation should remain as at present, with
>>the "default" being 50-50?
>>
>>Why should the car driver have to prove he was not being stupid? Why
>>should each side not simply fairly argue their case?

>
>
> Because the operator of the heavy, fast, powerful machinery brings all
> the danger in a confrontation with vulnerable road users.
>
> In any other area of life, it would be seen as perfectly natural for the
> presumption of liability to rest with the endangering party -- fireworks
> exhibitors, demolition crews, train operators, playgroups who run bouncy
> castles.


> Victims of these businesses would not have to sue in order to get a
> default payment out of the insurance company.


Wouldn't they?

Do you suggest that there is already a default mechanism whereby
persons or bodies not shown to have been negligent are treated in law
as though they had been shown to be negligent?

When was that introduced?

> If there is a dispute, a judge can sort it out.


That's what happens at the moment. It's called "suing".

> Yet pedestrians and cyclists have to sue if they are the victims of a
> collision with a car! It's perverse, and needs to be brought in line
> with the rest of civilised society.


There is nothing perverse about those making allegations being
expected to prove them. It would be perverse for allegations to be
automatically accepted as though they were true even if they were not.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> She has a problem with depth perception and has little ability to relate
> speeds/trajectories (she can't catch balls either).
>
> Hence, for her, separation would be a major step forward, it would
> certainly make her feel way more comfoprtable. She's fine off-road or
> on heath/moorland tracks, just doesn't like riding in traffic. Doesn't
> like driving in traffic either, for similar reasons.
>


But your wife's situation is hardly typical and is not a rational basis
for providing a segregated cycling network.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> In which case, surely the situation should remain as at present, with
> the "default" being 50-50?
>
> Why should the car driver have to prove he was not being stupid? Why
> should each side not simply fairly argue their case?
>


Because its not equal. Its an obstructive insurance company vs a lone
cyclist almost all of the time. When I was knocked off my bike I had to
eventually go to the small claims Court to get the insurance company to
take any notice at all and then they used every delaying tactic and
threat in the book to try to frighten me into backing down. This
despite the police report and witness statements putting the blame
squarely on the driver and the driver's account differing substantially
from the police and witnesses accounts. Eventually they gave in and
paid in full a few days before the Court hearing thus ensuring I had had
to put the maximum effort into preparing the case. My case is
symptomatic of the norm, not the exception. That's why.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell
 
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:09:32 +0100, JNugent
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Marc Brett wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:11:52 GMT, [email protected] (Neil
>> Williams) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:11:45 +0100, Marc Brett
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The law can (and should) be drafted so the motorist is not liable if the
>>>>cyclist is at fault for causing the collision. France, for one, does
>>>>this.
>>>
>>>In which case, surely the situation should remain as at present, with
>>>the "default" being 50-50?
>>>
>>>Why should the car driver have to prove he was not being stupid? Why
>>>should each side not simply fairly argue their case?

>>
>>
>> Because the operator of the heavy, fast, powerful machinery brings all
>> the danger in a confrontation with vulnerable road users.
>>
>> In any other area of life, it would be seen as perfectly natural for the
>> presumption of liability to rest with the endangering party -- fireworks
>> exhibitors, demolition crews, train operators, playgroups who run bouncy
>> castles.

>
>> Victims of these businesses would not have to sue in order to get a
>> default payment out of the insurance company.

>
>Wouldn't they?
>
>Do you suggest that there is already a default mechanism whereby
>persons or bodies not shown to have been negligent are treated in law
>as though they had been shown to be negligent?
>
>When was that introduced?


I'm not a lawyer, so cannot quote chapter and verse for all variations.
But as an example, the Consumer Protection Act (1987) has strict
liability for defective products. The consumers must prove the defect
existed, and the defect caused injury, but negligence does not have to
be proven.

>> If there is a dispute, a judge can sort it out.

>
>That's what happens at the moment. It's called "suing".


But that should not be the default barrier through which all victims
have to steer. It should be reserved for exceptional cases, such as
when the victim really is to blame.

>> Yet pedestrians and cyclists have to sue if they are the victims of a
>> collision with a car! It's perverse, and needs to be brought in line
>> with the rest of civilised society.

>
>There is nothing perverse about those making allegations being
>expected to prove them. It would be perverse for allegations to be
>automatically accepted as though they were true even if they were not.


It works in other areas of society, and in the case of the CPA (1987),
is almost certainly welcomed by the injured victims of defective
products. The rest of society benefits indirectly because
manufacturers, distributors, and retailers all have to raise their game
to avoid becoming CPA defendants.

If drivers suddenly viewed pedestrians and cyclists as a threat to their
no-claims bonus, they might modify their behaviour accordingly, to the
benefit of everyone.
 
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:17:29 +0100, Tony Raven
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>>
>> In which case, surely the situation should remain as at present, with
>> the "default" being 50-50?
>>
>> Why should the car driver have to prove he was not being stupid? Why
>> should each side not simply fairly argue their case?
>>

>
>Because its not equal. Its an obstructive insurance company vs a lone
>cyclist almost all of the time. When I was knocked off my bike I had to
>eventually go to the small claims Court to get the insurance company to
>take any notice at all and then they used every delaying tactic and
>threat in the book to try to frighten me into backing down. This
>despite the police report and witness statements putting the blame
>squarely on the driver and the driver's account differing substantially
>from the police and witnesses accounts. Eventually they gave in and
>paid in full a few days before the Court hearing thus ensuring I had had
>to put the maximum effort into preparing the case. My case is
>symptomatic of the norm, not the exception. That's why.


I'm still awaiting an offer for the time I was knocked off my bike
outside Blackheath train station by a van turning right across the
traffic stream to get into a parking bay on the other side of the
road.
 
Marc Brett wrote:

> JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Marc Brett wrote:


[ ... ]

>>>>Why should the car driver have to prove he was not being stupid? Why
>>>>should each side not simply fairly argue their case?


>>>Because the operator of the heavy, fast, powerful machinery brings all
>>>the danger in a confrontation with vulnerable road users.
>>>In any other area of life, it would be seen as perfectly natural for the
>>>presumption of liability to rest with the endangering party -- fireworks
>>>exhibitors, demolition crews, train operators, playgroups who run bouncy
>>>castles.


>>>Victims of these businesses would not have to sue in order to get a
>>>default payment out of the insurance company.


>>Wouldn't they?
>>Do you suggest that there is already a default mechanism whereby
>>persons or bodies not shown to have been negligent are treated in law
>>as though they had been shown to be negligent?


>>When was that introduced?


> I'm not a lawyer, so cannot quote chapter and verse for all variations.
> But as an example, the Consumer Protection Act (1987) has strict
> liability for defective products. The consumers must prove the defect
> existed, and the defect caused injury, but negligence does not have to
> be proven.


Proving that the defect existed and that it caused injury seems pretty
non-automatic (and a relatively high hurdle, comparable to proving
negligence) to me.

Do you actually have an example that supports your very weak case?

>>>If there is a dispute, a judge can sort it out.


>>That's what happens at the moment. It's called "suing".


> But that should not be the default barrier through which all victims
> have to steer.


Why not?

The problem (as you well know) is that not only "victims" sue - many
litigants lose (and incur costs) because they are not victims - and in
the unjust system that you propose, many more non-victims could
reasonably be expected to make speculative, dishonest, claims. They
might even get their mates to act as witnesses (I've seen that done).
There would be nothing that the innocent road-user could do to protect
themselves against such dishonesty. It would be a fraudster's charter.
The only way to balance that is to either not have the unjust scheme
you propose (the preferred option), or to have a stringent penalty for
failing to make your case (such as sufficient liability for costs so
as to bankrupt the average citizen making a dishonest claim against a
big bad insurance company).

> It should be reserved for exceptional cases, such as
> when the victim really is to blame.


Proving that the victim (ie, the road-user who was not to blame) was
to blame should only be resorted to in exceptional cases?

How would you know which case was exceptional (even "exceptional"
under your extraordinary definition of it - where you still define the
aggressor as the victim)? The answer is that there'd have to be a
court case.

>>>Yet pedestrians and cyclists have to sue if they are the victims of a
>>>collision with a car! It's perverse, and needs to be brought in line
>>>with the rest of civilised society.


>>There is nothing perverse about those making allegations being
>>expected to prove them. It would be perverse for allegations to be
>>automatically accepted as though they were true even if they were not.


> It works in other areas of society, and in the case of the CPA (1987),
> is almost certainly welcomed by the injured victims of defective
> products. The rest of society benefits indirectly because
> manufacturers, distributors, and retailers all have to raise their game
> to avoid becoming CPA defendants.


Oh, there are lots of things that could be made to "work". We could,
for instance, allow victims of violent crime to nominate their
assailant on a automatic liability basis (no questions asked, no
arguing with the umpire allowed). Many claims might consequently be
made against very rich men. Or very against unpopular men.

It might "work", but that isn't the issue. The issue is how to get
*justice* (something of which you show little comprehension). And
justice does not reside in treating the (real) victim as the perp.
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>>In which case, surely the situation should remain as at present, with
>>the "default" being 50-50?
>>
>>Why should the car driver have to prove he was not being stupid? Why
>>should each side not simply fairly argue their case?


> Because its not equal.


It isn't supposed to be equal - it's supposed to be fair (which is a
very different thing).

If a claimant cannot prove their claim, they're supposed to lose.

That's fair.
 
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:35:49 +0100, JNugent
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Marc Brett wrote:
>
>> JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Do you suggest that there is already a default mechanism whereby
>>>persons or bodies not shown to have been negligent are treated in law
>>>as though they had been shown to be negligent?

>
>>>When was that introduced?

>
>> I'm not a lawyer, so cannot quote chapter and verse for all variations.
>> But as an example, the Consumer Protection Act (1987) has strict
>> liability for defective products. The consumers must prove the defect
>> existed, and the defect caused injury, but negligence does not have to
>> be proven.

>
>Proving that the defect existed and that it caused injury seems pretty
>non-automatic (and a relatively high hurdle, comparable to proving
>negligence) to me.
>
>Do you actually have an example that supports your very weak case?


You wanted an example where negligence needn't be proven. There it is.
Are you going to keep moving the goal posts every time you're losing the
argument?

You claim strict liability for motorists would be a huge opportunity for
fraud. Is this the experience in the European countries where it has
been implemented? If not there, why should it be in the UK?
 
On 13 Oct, 22:59, Tom Crispin <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:46:12 +0100, Tony Raven
>
> So what would be your method to increase the numbers of utility
> cyclists?


Apply a stageringly large tax on contraceptives for bike riders?
ROFLMAO

David Lloyd
 
On 14 Oct, 12:36, [email protected] (Neil Williams)
wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:10:49 +0100, Simon Brooke
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >* Liability: motorist should be by default liable in all motor
> > vehicle/cycle collisions unless (s)he can prove otherwise

>
> I keep seeing this, but why? There seem to be a lot more
> stupid/dangerous cyclists out there than car drivers, and I say that
> as a cyclist.
>


Perhaps it would be more constructive to make financial aid readily
available to the injured cyclist without it having to first be taken
off the motorist. Let's face it, whenever this idea of automatically
making the motorist liable has been raised, it has only served to get
motorist's backs up and give the zealots amongst them more of an
excuse to hate us. I am a great believer in the principle of 'innocent
until proven guilty', wether or not we are talking about legal guilt,
and see this as an erosion of this principle. I also don't like the
thought that such a scheme would add to the view of POBs and other
cycle mounted numpties that their safety was not their own
responsibility.


David Lloyd
 
David Lloyd wrote:
> excuse to hate us. I am a great believer in the principle of 'innocent
> until proven guilty', wether or not we are talking about legal guilt,
> and see this as an erosion of this principle. I also don't like the


If the cyclist comes off worse and you presume the motorist innocent,
that's really not so different from presuming the cyclist guilty ("he
deserved what he got"/"it's just one of those things, he shouldn't have
been on the road"). How is that any fairer or more just?

> thought that such a scheme would add to the view of POBs and other
> cycle mounted numpties that their safety was not their own
> responsibility.


It's a concern, but I feel sure they'll quickly be disabused of such an
erroneous notion when they get the letter from the court with the
motorist's insurance co on the other side.


-dan
 

Similar threads

J
Replies
0
Views
404
J
B
Replies
0
Views
432
B
J
Replies
0
Views
378
UK and Europe
Just zis Guy, you know?
J