OK .. back to road bikes ..

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by elyob, Jul 5, 2005.

  1. elyob

    elyob Guest

    Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are the
    gears all in the same places?

    I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see myself
    around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an entirely
    different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street bike.
     
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  2. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    elyob wrote:
    > Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are the
    > gears all in the same places?
    >

    Thats a really good question. I have started doing many more miles,
    upped my annual from 2500 to 4500 to a projected 10,000 this year.
    Using three bikes it has become necessary for me to have my position
    very similar on all three. So much that I have recently got some new
    bars for my best bike, despite it being fine for the last 8 years. Now
    that I am doing 200Km + rides on it it was not good enough. On my 3
    road bikes the gears are in he same place on two and thats the
    downtube, the third has those new fangled STi things, this is the bike
    that is getting new bars. Generally with new bikes they are all in the
    same place these days but the differences can be quite subtle and you
    may find some bars/levers more comfortable than others. Really depends
    on you and how you use your equipment.
     
  3. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    in message <[email protected]>, elyob
    ('[email protected]') wrote:

    > Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are
    > the gears all in the same places?
    >
    > I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
    > myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an
    > entirely different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street bike.


    Most, but not all, road bikes have 'bends' or 'drop bars' with brake
    levers on the bends. The design of drop bars hasn't changed much in
    fifty years, largely because they work.
    <URL:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5300004020>
    Modern Shimano and Campagnolo road groupsets have the gear shifters
    integrated with the brake levers, although the exact mechanisms differ
    in the way you work them (and different Shimano models and years differ
    too).

    However, particularly on triathlon and time trial bikes, tribars (or
    aerobars, same thing) may be used; if they are, the gear shifters may be
    bar-end or lever type and mounted on the tribars, while the brakes
    remain in the conventional place:
    <URL:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360012834>

    High-end time trial bikes often have wing bars rather than drops; these
    are almost always used in conjunction with tribars:
    <URL:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360008179>

    Increasingly, wing bars with aero extensions are being sold as single
    integrated systems:
    <URL:http://www.wiggle.co.uk/Default.aspx?ProdID=5360008172>

    NB: this isn't an endorsement of wiggle, just they're convenient and have
    examples of all the types I was talking about.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; All in all you're just another nick in the ball
    -- Think Droid
     
  4. wafflycat

    wafflycat Guest

    "elyob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are the
    > gears all in the same places?
    >


    Errr... how do you mean??? change rear cogs with right side, change front
    with left side... It was the same with my hybrid.

    Cheers, helen s


    > I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see myself
    > around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an entirely
    > different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street bike.
    >
    >
    >
     
  5. dkahn400

    dkahn400 Guest

    elyob wrote:
    > Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes.
    > Are the gears all in the same places?
    >
    > I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
    > myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's
    > an entirely different kettle of fish than my current
    > mountain/street bike.


    Your "bog standard" racing bike will tend to have brifters these days.
    That is, the gear mechanism is integrated with the brake levers. The
    Campag and Shimano systems work differently from each other but both
    are very good arrangements and both have their fans. For general fast
    riding and hacking either system will be very good.

    There are other arrangements. Lance, for example, seems to prefer an
    old fashioned down tube lever for his front changer while keeping the
    STI brifter for his rear derailleur. I think this is mostly for weight
    saving but IMO the Shimano system, for the front changer at least, is
    inferior to the Campag one, which is more trimmable. The Shimano one
    also has a tendency to drop the chain when shifting to the small ring
    if you are clumsy. It therefore usually happens only at crucial moments
    in a race. :-(

    Bar end shifters are another alternative, and easier to maintain.
    Generally though, racing cyclists these days tend to use them only on
    time trial bikes where they are sometimes fitted to aero bars. Quite a
    few Audax riders also use them as they are a bit more reliable than
    brifters.

    Incidentally, riding around Richmond Park you will almost certainly be
    exceeding the 20mph speed limit in places unless your riding is very
    restrained, but I think you know that already.

    --
    Dave...
     
  6. elyob

    elyob Guest

    "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > Incidentally, riding around Richmond Park you will almost certainly be
    > exceeding the 20mph speed limit in places unless your riding is very
    > restrained, but I think you know that already.


    I know, but am wondering if it's enforced at dusk/night ;)

    Where else would you recommend a new 'roadie' to go looking for a good
    route?

    I've just thrown caution to the wind and ordered an OCR3 racing bike. Will
    spend the next few days making space in my storage space.
     
  7. Mark

    Mark Guest

    On 2005-07-05, dkahn400 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > elyob wrote:
    >> Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are
    >> the gears all in the same places?
    >>
    >> I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
    >> myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an
    >> entirely different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street
    >> bike.

    >

    [chop]
    >
    > There are other arrangements. Lance, for example, seems to prefer an
    > old fashioned down tube lever for his front changer while keeping the
    > STI brifter for his rear derailleur. I think this is mostly for weight
    > saving


    [more chopping]

    AFAIK he only uses a down-tube shifter on his ultralight climbing bike
    for the really lumpy bits. 'Brifter' everywhen else.

    Mark
     
  8. elyob wrote:
    > Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are the
    > gears all in the same places?


    There are four types.

    Combined brake/shift levers, on nearly all new bikes. Shimano call it
    STI (as on mountain bikes), Campagnolo call it Ergopower. Some people
    prefer Campag because of the neater cable routing (it all goes under the
    bar tape) and the ability to shift when standing up. Shimano's front
    indexing is a PITA and really unnecessary, but as an MTBer you'll
    probably be used to it. Rather complex and expensive; don't ever think
    about taking a unit apart.

    Down tube levers, almost extinct on new bikes but still made. No cable
    outers (except the little loop for the rear mech), and short cables, so
    very precise shifting and excellent reliability. If you're used to them
    from years gone by, they're not a problem. If not, you'll hate them.
    Slight disadvantage in that simultaneous front and back changes are
    impossible and there's no provision for adjusting the rear cable on the fly.

    Bar-end levers, almost exclusively used by time triallists and tourists.
    Utterly reliable, simultaneous f/r changes are possible and you get
    the adjusters for the indexing. The cable run is ugly (it sweeps
    forward in a loop, then back to the down tube).

    Stem-mounted levers. Only on really cr*p bikes from the 1970s and
    1980s. Same disadvantages as downtube levers, then some - and they have
    a reputation for emasculating the rider in a crash ;-)
     
  9. elyob

    elyob Guest

    "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On 2005-07-05, dkahn400 <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> elyob wrote:
    >>> Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes. Are
    >>> the gears all in the same places?
    >>>
    >>> I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
    >>> myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an
    >>> entirely different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street
    >>> bike.

    >>

    > [chop]
    >>
    >> There are other arrangements. Lance, for example, seems to prefer an
    >> old fashioned down tube lever for his front changer while keeping the
    >> STI brifter for his rear derailleur. I think this is mostly for weight
    >> saving

    >
    > [more chopping]
    >
    > AFAIK he only uses a down-tube shifter on his ultralight climbing bike
    > for the really lumpy bits. 'Brifter' everywhen else.


    I've never used a Brifter before. How do you use it?!

    Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement should I
    expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about 16mph +, but have
    no idea what the weight difference will provide.

    Thanks
     
  10. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    in message <[email protected]>, Zog The Undeniable
    ('[email protected]') wrote:

    > Down tube levers, almost extinct on new bikes but still made. No cable
    > outers (except the little loop for the rear mech), and short cables, so
    > very precise shifting and excellent reliability. If you're used to
    > them
    > from years gone by, they're not a problem. If not, you'll hate them.
    > Slight disadvantage in that simultaneous front and back changes are
    > impossible


    Not so. Hand (for me, the right) above down tube; thumb pushes front
    changer forward while fingers push rear changer back. I can't do it the
    other way around, but I expect there are people who can.

    Still, I agree that brifters make these things easier.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    Wannabe a Web designer?
    <URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>
     
  11. Mark

    Mark Guest

    On 2005-07-05, elyob <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    >> [more chopping]
    >>
    >> AFAIK he only uses a down-tube shifter on his ultralight climbing
    >> bike for the really lumpy bits. 'Brifter' everywhen else.

    >
    > I've never used a Brifter before. How do you use it?!


    It's not a term I'd heard before, but I liked it so I carried it on :~)

    A 'brifter' is more formally known as an STI lever when Shimano
    flavoured or 'Ergopower' level when made by Campagnolo. Both do a
    similar job -- combining brake and gear levers into one unit -- but in
    slightly different ways. With all but the cheapest Shimano units you
    shift to a bigger chainring/sprocket by pushing the whole brake lever
    towards the middle of the handlebars and to a smaller chainring/sprocket
    by flicking a smaller lever behind the brake lever. The Campagnolo
    system is a bit opposite to Shimano: the small lever behind the brake
    lever moves to a bigger chainring/sprocket, while an additional thumb
    button on the inside of the hood (the bit that attaches the whole brake
    lever assembly to the bar) moves to a smaller ring/sprocket.

    My description is clunky and inelegant but the real products are
    actually very easy and natural to use. They're probably heavier than a
    downtube shifter (see previous notes on Lance), more complex and
    certainly a damn sight more expensive but I wouldn't be without them.

    > Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement
    > should I expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about
    > 16mph +, but have no idea what the weight difference will provide.


    I'd have thought that was a reasonable guess. I'm so used to riding a
    road bike with 100psi in the tyres it makes me feel a bit sick to see
    someone chugging up the road on a MTB shod with knobblies at 20psi,
    tyres bouncing as they pump away at the pedals :~) If your MTB has
    slicks then perhaps the difference won't be so pronounced, but I'm sure
    the more efficient position, stiffer frame and lighter weight will help
    boost your average speed.

    Cheers,

    Mark
     
  12. elyob

    elyob Guest

    "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On 2005-07-05, elyob <[email protected]> wrote:


    >> Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement
    >> should I expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about
    >> 16mph +, but have no idea what the weight difference will provide.

    >
    > I'd have thought that was a reasonable guess. I'm so used to riding a
    > road bike with 100psi in the tyres it makes me feel a bit sick to see
    > someone chugging up the road on a MTB shod with knobblies at 20psi,
    > tyres bouncing as they pump away at the pedals :~) If your MTB has
    > slicks then perhaps the difference won't be so pronounced, but I'm sure
    > the more efficient position, stiffer frame and lighter weight will help
    > boost your average speed.
    >


    My MTB is pretty heavy, due to carrying everything I'd ever need. I run
    semi-slicks, but with fat kevlar linings. I'm not looking forward to meeting
    the p*nct*re fairy again soon. In fact, I'm not even sure how to change a
    tyre/tube on a race bike. I'm sure the kit that needs to be carried is
    completely different from a MTB. Advice here, really appreciated.

    I'm going to run the road bike light, and probably fair weather only too. My
    top speed on a MTB (off Ditchling Beacon) is 53.3mph. I want to revisit with
    a big tow and see if I can break 70mph. I'm thinking it's a fairly
    reasonable estimate.

    I'm excited, in case no one has noticed ;)
     
  13. Mark

    Mark Guest

    On 2005-07-05, elyob <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    >> On 2005-07-05, elyob <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement
    >>> should I expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about
    >>> 16mph +, but have no idea what the weight difference will provide.

    >>
    >> I'd have thought that was a reasonable guess. I'm so used to riding a
    >> road bike with 100psi in the tyres it makes me feel a bit sick to see
    >> someone chugging up the road on a MTB shod with knobblies at 20psi,
    >> tyres bouncing as they pump away at the pedals :~) If your MTB has
    >> slicks then perhaps the difference won't be so pronounced, but I'm
    >> sure the more efficient position, stiffer frame and lighter weight
    >> will help boost your average speed.

    >
    > My MTB is pretty heavy, due to carrying everything I'd ever need. I
    > run semi-slicks, but with fat kevlar linings. I'm not looking forward
    > to meeting the p*nct*re fairy again soon. In fact, I'm not even sure
    > how to change a tyre/tube on a race bike. I'm sure the kit that needs
    > to be carried is completely different from a MTB. Advice here, really
    > appreciated.


    Unless you have tubulars tyres (aka 'tubs' and you almost certainly
    won't) which are an inner tube and tyre all sewn up into a circular
    sausage that you glue to the rim, it's much the same as MTB-land.
    Sometimes you can persuade the tyre off the rim with your hands
    (Vittoria Open Corsas are good for this) and other times you might need
    to use tyre levers. Fix the puncture as usual, put it all back together
    and pump up. I usually carry a spare tube or two (much faster than
    patching one and is useful for when a valve breaks or the tube has a
    giant split), a small pump and a small repair kit with levers, glue,
    patches, 4/5/6mm allen keys.

    > I'm going to run the road bike light, and probably fair weather only
    > too. My top speed on a MTB (off Ditchling Beacon) is 53.3mph. I want
    > to revisit with a big tow and see if I can break 70mph. I'm thinking
    > it's a fairly reasonable estimate.


    Jesus. That's fast.

    > I'm excited, in case no one has noticed ;)


    Really?

    Mark
     
  14. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    Zog The Undeniable wrote:

    >
    > Down tube levers, almost extinct on new bikes but still made. No cable
    > outers (except the little loop for the rear mech), and short cables, so
    > very precise shifting and excellent reliability. If you're used to them
    > from years gone by, they're not a problem. If not, you'll hate them.
    > Slight disadvantage in that simultaneous front and back changes are
    > impossible and there's no provision for adjusting the rear cable on the fly.
    >

    Switch the rear to friction mode and one has lashings of adjustment.
     
  15. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    in message <[email protected]>, elyob
    ('[email protected]') wrote:

    >
    > "Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> On 2005-07-05, dkahn400 <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> elyob wrote:
    >>>> Can anyone explain the difference in handlebars on racing bikes.
    >>>> Are the gears all in the same places?
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm not entirely sure what type of cycling I will do, but can see
    >>>> myself around Richmond Park and doing some distance cycling. It's an
    >>>> entirely different kettle of fish than my current mountain/street
    >>>> bike.
    >>>

    >> [chop]
    >>>
    >>> There are other arrangements. Lance, for example, seems to prefer an
    >>> old fashioned down tube lever for his front changer while keeping the
    >>> STI brifter for his rear derailleur. I think this is mostly for
    >>> weight saving

    >>
    >> [more chopping]
    >>
    >> AFAIK he only uses a down-tube shifter on his ultralight climbing bike
    >> for the really lumpy bits. 'Brifter' everywhen else.

    >
    > I've never used a Brifter before. How do you use it?!


    Campag, push the swing lever in to change up a cog (or several); click
    the thumb button down to change down a cog (or several); front deraileur
    can be trimmed. Shimano, do one of a dozen different things depending on
    the mood the designer was in on the day your brifters were designed;
    trimming? what's trimming? Campag, to brake, pull the brake lever. To
    release the tyre, press the toggle button. If you've changed a wheel and
    forgotten to reset the release mechanism, and you want to brake, just
    brake normally. Shimano, to brake, pull the brake lever (which may also
    swing and change gear, again depending on the designer's mood on the
    day). To release the tyre, turn the lever on the brake caliper. If
    you've changed a wheel and forgotten to reset the release mechanism, and
    you want to brake, just crash.

    I give you two guesses about which system I use :)

    > Also, if I'm averaging 13mph on a MTB, what percentage improvement
    > should I expect on a race bike? I'm guessing I should average about
    > 16mph +, but have no idea what the weight difference will provide.


    At least 10% improvement, don't be at all surprised by 25%.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    .::;===r==\
    / /___||___\____
    //==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
    //____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming
    language.
    \__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.
     
  16. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    in message <[email protected]>, elyob
    ('[email protected]') wrote:

    > My MTB is pretty heavy, due to carrying everything I'd ever need. I run
    > semi-slicks, but with fat kevlar linings. I'm not looking forward to
    > meeting the p*nct*re fairy again soon. In fact, I'm not even sure how
    > to change a tyre/tube on a race bike. I'm sure the kit that needs to be
    > carried is completely different from a MTB. Advice here, really
    > appreciated.


    A fat barrelled pump, as usually carried on an MTB, won't easily pump to
    100psi; a narrow barrelled pump will, but can take a lot of strokes.
    Road tubes more commonly have Presta valves. Apart from that, you
    obviously need a spare tube of the right size, but everything else
    (repair kit, levers) is exactly the same.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    ;; Voltaire RIP Dr David Kelly 1945-2004
     
  17. elyob wrote:

    > I'm going to run the road bike light, and probably fair weather only
    > too. My top speed on a MTB (off Ditchling Beacon) is 53.3mph. I want
    > to revisit with a big tow and see if I can break 70mph. I'm thinking
    > it's a fairly reasonable estimate.


    London Recumbents' Darth Oliver reports 70 mph on Ditchling, but that's on a
    Challenge Hurricane. Unless you are very close behind something large and
    fast, I suspect you may be disappointed...

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    While you were out at the Rollright Stones, I came and set fire to your
    Shed.
     
  18. dkahn400

    dkahn400 Guest

    Mark wrote:
    > On 2005-07-05, elyob <[email protected]> wrote:


    > > I've never used a Brifter before. How do you use it?!

    >
    > It's not a term I'd heard before, but I liked it so I carried it
    > on :~)


    I'm not too proud to admit I got it from the Leftpondians. From
    Sheldon's glossary: "Brifter. A combination brake/shift lever, such as
    a Campagnolo Ergo or Shimano S.T.I. unit. This term was coined by Bruce
    Frech."

    It may be too Merkin for some tastes as "shifter" and "shift lever" are
    clearly USAian, but I think the British alternative of "brear lever"
    would be less than satisfactory. :)

    --
    Dave...
     
  19. dkahn400

    dkahn400 Guest

    elyob wrote:

    > I'm going to run the road bike light, and probably fair weather
    > only too. My top speed on a MTB (off Ditchling Beacon) is 53.3mph.
    > I want to revisit with a big tow and see if I can break 70mph. I'm
    > thinking it's a fairly reasonable estimate.


    Mid-50's are doable, but I'll be impressed if you can break 60, let
    alone 70. Good luck with the project though, and let us know if you
    succeed. In all the hilly Audax rides I've done this year I've only
    managed low 50's. My fastest computer-recorded speed was in the
    Pyrenees in the 2003 Etape, and that was only around 53mph.

    --
    Dave...
     
  20. dkahn400

    dkahn400 Guest

    elyob wrote:
    > "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    > > Incidentally, riding around Richmond Park you will almost
    > > certainly be exceeding the 20mph speed limit in places unless
    > > your riding is very restrained, but I think you know that
    > > already.

    >
    > I know, but am wondering if it's enforced at dusk/night ;)
    >
    > Where else would you recommend a new 'roadie' to go looking for
    > a good route?


    >From that sort of area head through either Kingston or

    Twickenham/Hampton to Esher, and thence into the Surrey hills. Let me
    know if you want a detailed route.

    > I've just thrown caution to the wind and ordered an OCR3 racing
    > bike. Will spend the next few days making space in my storage
    > space.


    Fantastic. Enjoy it.

    --
    Dave...
     
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