OK if spokes stick out of nipples?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Jacobe Hazzard, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. I just built my first wheel. My LBS calculated the spoke
    lengths for me, and gave me the same length for left and
    right (this is 7spd rear wheel, laced 3 cross). They told
    me I was in between sizes, but should be fine with what
    they gave me.

    Having built the wheel, the spokes on the right side
    protrude from the nipples by around 1-1.5mm. Aside from the
    fact that the nipples can't be turned from inside the rim
    with a screwdriver, is there any problem with this? I'm
    really tempted to just throw on a rim elastic, slap a tire
    on the wheel and call it finished.

    I can supply pictures if that would help.

    Thanks, Adam
     
    Tags:


  2. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    "Jacobe Hazzard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%[email protected]...
    > I just built my first wheel. My LBS calculated the spoke
    > lengths for me,
    and
    > gave me the same length for left and right (this is 7spd
    > rear wheel, laced
    3
    > cross). They told me I was in between sizes, but should be
    > fine with what they gave me.

    Are they recessed socket-type rims? If so, slap that rim
    tape on and go! If the rim tape sits right on top of the
    spoke bed (non-socket..) then you can cut and file etc. to
    make them flat, but it's quite labour intensive. 1mm is not
    much and I've done it before, especially on socket rims.

    Cheers,

    Scott..
     
  3. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    "Jacobe Hazzard" <[email protected]> writes:

    > I just built my first wheel. My LBS calculated the spoke
    > lengths for me, and gave me the same length for left and
    > right (this is 7spd rear wheel, laced 3 cross). They told
    > me I was in between sizes, but should be fine with what
    > they gave me.

    They should have given you the shorter of the two sizes. Or,
    even better, they should have ordered the correct size
    spokes for you.

    > Having built the wheel, the spokes on the right side
    > protrude from the nipples by around 1-1.5mm. Aside from
    > the fact that the nipples can't be turned from inside the
    > rim with a screwdriver, is there any problem with this?
    > I'm really tempted to just throw on a rim elastic, slap a
    > tire on the wheel and call it finished.

    Sounds like guaranteed flat tires. You *might* be able to
    get away with this if these are box section rims and the
    ends of the spokes do not protrude into the air chamber. If
    that's the case, then use a non-stretchable rim strip like
    Velox or Kool-Stop rim strips.
     
  4. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "S. Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Jacobe Hazzard" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > message news:%[email protected]
    > .cable.rogers.com...
    > > I just built my first wheel. My LBS calculated the spoke
    > > lengths for me,
    > and
    > > gave me the same length for left and right (this is 7spd
    > > rear wheel, laced
    > 3
    > > cross). They told me I was in between sizes, but should
    > > be fine with what they gave me.
    >
    > Are they recessed socket-type rims? If so, slap that rim
    > tape on and go! If the rim tape sits right on top of the
    > spoke bed (non-socket..) then you can cut and file etc.
    > to make them flat, but it's quite labour intensive. 1mm
    > is not much and I've done it before, especially on
    > socket rims.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Scott..

    Dear Scott,

    The truly lazy wheelsmith, upon discovering a spoke
    protruding and threatening the inner tube, fires up his
    dremel tool with a reinforced cutting wheel.

    It's far less labor intensive than you'd think.

    Er, that is, I've heard of this.

    Anyway, you can't prove what I was doing late last night in
    the garage after I replaced some rim tape and noticed a
    stupid spoke sticking--

    Never mind.

    Carl Fogel
     
  5. Ed

    Ed Guest

    It depends if you're planning to wear a bra under your t-
    shirt to the vicar's tea party.
     
  6. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    "Carl Fogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Dear Scott,
    >
    > The truly lazy wheelsmith, upon discovering a spoke
    > protruding and threatening the inner tube, fires up his
    > dremel tool with a reinforced cutting wheel.
    >
    > It's far less labor intensive than you'd think.
    >
    > Er, that is, I've heard of this.
    >
    > Anyway, you can't prove what I was doing late last night
    > in the garage after I replaced some rim tape and noticed a
    > stupid spoke sticking--
    >
    > Never mind.
    >
    > Carl Fogel

    S'truth! I never had the luxury of the dremel, so I did it
    the old-fashioned way...HAND FILE!! ;-) You know, we'd all
    like it to be perfect, but at 1 am when you want to ride
    the next day and you have 16 spokes that are too long,
    well, the dremel starts to look pretty good! Or, if you're
    a shop and you have an irate customer who wants his wheel
    yesterday and you only have 298's in stock and he really
    needs 296's and you give it a go anyway but notice the
    spokes are a mm too long..well..it technically may not be
    perfect, but a little zap with the dremel and there's
    nothing technically wrong it either!

    Cheers,

    Scott..
     
  7. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    "Ed" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > It depends if you're planning to wear a bra under your t-
    > shirt to the vicar's tea party.

    Let's hope its not a wet tea (shirt) party if you don't!

    Mike
     
  8. S. Anderson wrote:
    > > The truly lazy wheelsmith, upon discovering a spoke
    > > protruding and threatening the inner tube, fires up his
    > > dremel tool with a reinforced cutting wheel.
    > >
    > > It's far less labor intensive than you'd think.
    > >
    > S'truth! I never had the luxury of the dremel, so I did it
    > the old-fashioned way...HAND FILE!! ;-) You know, we'd all
    > like it to be perfect, but at 1 am when you want to ride
    > the next day and you have 16 spokes that are too long,
    > well, the dremel starts to look pretty good! Or, if you're
    > a shop and you have an irate customer who wants his wheel
    > yesterday and you only have 298's in stock and he really
    > needs 296's and you give it a go anyway but notice the
    > spokes are a mm too long..well..it technically may not be
    > perfect, but a little zap with the dremel and there's
    > nothing technically wrong it either!

    So dremel it is. I'll let you know how it goes.
     
  9. daveornee

    daveornee New Member

    Joined:
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    There is a limit to this method. 1.5 mm is pretty much all you can have a DT Spoke protrude through the bottom of a DT nipple before you start "hitting the end" of the treads at the top part of the nipple.
    As an earlier poster said, your shop should have sold you spokes 2 mm shorter. If it were me, I would bring them back and ask them to replace them. The target length is to have the end of the spoke between being flush with the top of the slot and flush with the end of the nipple. If you need more adjustment later, due to settling, you will be happy to have the additional range.
     
  10. BaCardi

    BaCardi New Member

    Joined:
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    Absolutely agree. The shop should not have tried to sell the guy the lengths that he is now finding out are too long.

    The original poster had indicated that they are already protruding and if they protrude too far, even after dremeling the spokes, there still lies potential trouble down the road. If the spokes stretch, any tightening of the spokes later on may not be possible since most of the spokes threads were past the threaded nipple portion and grinded off.

    If it was only a question of a spoke only being too long by less than 1mm, then its fine to file away. But anything too long and you still end up in trouble later on.

    Condolences to the poster. Kinda sucks, but I don't think the bike shop is going to be happy or willing to take back spoke that have already been used.
     
  11. Terry Morse

    Terry Morse Guest

    BaCardi wrote:

    > If the spokes stretch, any tightening of the spokes later
    > on may not be possible since most of the spokes threads
    > were past the threaded nipple portion and grinded off.

    Once they're tensioned, spokes don't stretch any further. In
    order to stretch permanently, the spoke would have to be
    tensioned beyond it's yield strength, and that can't happen
    in a built wheel.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/
     
  12. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "Jacobe Hazzard" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > S. Anderson wrote:
    > > > The truly lazy wheelsmith, upon discovering a spoke
    > > > protruding and threatening the inner tube, fires up
    > > > his dremel tool with a reinforced cutting wheel.
    > > >
    > > > It's far less labor intensive than you'd think.
    > > >
    > > S'truth! I never had the luxury of the dremel, so I did
    > > it the old-fashioned way...HAND FILE!! ;-) You know,
    > > we'd all like it to be perfect, but at 1 am when you
    > > want to ride the next day and you have 16 spokes that
    > > are too long, well, the dremel starts to look pretty
    > > good! Or, if you're a shop and you have an irate
    > > customer who wants his wheel yesterday and you only have
    > > 298's in stock and he really needs 296's and you give it
    > > a go anyway but notice the spokes are a mm too
    > > long..well..it technically may not be perfect, but a
    > > little zap with the dremel and there's nothing
    > > technically wrong it either!
    >
    > So dremel it is. I'll let you know how it goes.

    Dear Scott and Jacob,

    I have no idea what either of you is talking about.

    You can't prove a thing.

    And I only did it to two or three spokes.

    Incidentally, the reinforced cutting wheels will wear down
    into tinier and tinier circles, whose edges will spin slower
    and slower. Don't throw them away--the worn-down small
    wheels will fit into places that new ones can't.

    Like inside a bicycle rim.

    Carl Fogel
     
  13. Carl Fogel wrote:
    > Dear Scott and Jacob,
    >
    > I have no idea what either of you is talking about.
    >
    > You can't prove a thing.
    >
    > And I only did it to two or three spokes.
    >
    > Incidentally, the reinforced cutting wheels will wear down
    > into tinier and tinier circles, whose edges will spin
    > slower and slower. Don't throw them away--the worn-down
    > small wheels will fit into places that new ones can't.
    >
    > Like inside a bicycle rim.
    >
    > Carl Fogel

    Well I did it. I couldn't for the life of me figure out how
    to use cutting discs to cut off the ends of spokes that were
    already in the wheel, (even my left over little tiny worn
    down discs wouldn't fit) so I used a pink grinding wheel. I
    removed less than 1mm from most of the spokes, so hopefully
    I will have enough threads left and no problems later on. I
    just coulnd't wait till tomorrow to visit the bike shop and
    get new spokes, let me explain:

    I am cycling on a budget. A very, very tight budget. I have
    one bike, and I ride it all year. This winter, it ate a lot
    of salt and was in a pretty poor way. I was faced with the
    option of trying to find a new bike that fit my budget, or
    for slightly less money trying to overhaul my poor beater
    (slightly less because there were a lot of repairs to be
    done, but I would be able to do them myself, and using some
    parts I already had). I was riding around visiting bike shop
    after bike shop, mostly being told they had nothing in my
    price range, and generally not finding bikes I liked anyhow,
    when my poor beater finally died. The freewheel somehow fell
    apart (still not sure exactly how). It was fairly new too, I
    had replaced a worn one at the end of last year.

    My rear wheel was already in a bad way, so simply replacing
    the freewheel wasn't an option. I was suddenly without a
    bike for the first time in two years. Being someone who
    can't stay off his bike for long enough to let it stop
    hailing, I stole my moms bike. An old, rusted, 5 speed
    supercycle, much too small, unused for years and barely able
    to roll down a hill (although it does have a nice straw
    basket on front). I got a lot of admiring looks and comments
    riding it to class.

    Since I hadn't found a new bike I liked, the matter of what
    to do became quite a bit more urgent, and I decided to fix
    up my old bike. This meant: Building a new rear wheel, with
    new freewheel and chain; replacing all the cables; replacing
    and repacking the bearings in the BB, pedals and front hub;
    cleaning the chainwheels; removing, cleaning, lubing and
    adjusting the derailers (the front was seized, the rear was
    just really dirty); replacing the brake pads front and rear
    and of course adjusting the brakes. I also cleaned off the
    frame, and removed all those old bits of string, elastics,
    twist ties, plastic clamps and various other things that had
    accumulated from temporary attachements over the years. This
    process turned out to cost a lot more time, effort and money
    than I had expected (particularly time, on acount of I don't
    really know what I'm doing half the time), and probably
    wasn't worth it, but once I had started I was commited.

    Today being Saturday (well, yesterday being saturday) I had
    a whole day to devote to the overhaul, but of course that
    wasn't enough time. I finally finished all the repairs and
    resolved all the unexpected problems around
    4:30AM sunday morning. I went out for a ride, fully
    expecting my bike to fall apart and probably kill me in
    the process, but instead I had a really pleasant ride.
    Actually it was a totally kickass ride. When I got back my
    new wheel (my first wheelbuild) was still true. I'm so
    excited to have a bike with gears that index properly, and
    brakes that are adjusted so the cable can come out to
    remove the wheel, not so the pads clear the wobbling rim.
    It's so nice to be able to stand up on the pedals and not
    worry about the chain skipping, or the pedals falling off.
    It's so nice to be free of all those damned knocking and
    squeaking noises I've been living with since the first
    heavy snowfall last year. It's also nice that I was able
    to do it all myself.

    The moral of the story is to always have a spare bike
    hanging around! Well, I'm in the habit of rescuing old bikes
    and bike parts that people have thrown out, and it occured
    to me that I have enough working parts to build at least one
    road bike, and now that I know I can build bikes...

    Anyway I felt like I needed to share my triumph with
    someone, and since all the sane people in my time zone are
    asleep, I posted it here. Now I gotta shower and go to bed.
    If I hurry I can beat the sunrise :)
     
  14. Doug Goncz

    Doug Goncz Guest

    >From: daveornee [email protected]

    >s an earlier poster said, your shop should have sold you
    >spokes 2 mm shorter. If it were me, I would bring them back
    >and ask them to replace them.

    I agree. The right time to shorten a spoke is before you
    put it in. You put a nipple on it with tape, and the head
    is twice the distance to be cut from the end. You cut half
    that distance on the bench grinder and unscrew the nipple.
    If you're lucky you'll have a spoke die instead of a
    nipple. Then you deburr the end with the wire wheel on the
    bench grinder.

    >The target length is to have the end of the spoke between
    >being flush with the top of the slot and flush with the end
    >of the nipple.

    Oh, no, the spoke should initially tighten and true _below_
    the slot. It's gonna stretch. It should never be in the slot
    during it's whole service lifetime.

    Most threaded parts achieve about 75-85 percent strength
    with only three threads engaged. Three thread diameters is
    the rule for assembly ease, not the rule for strength. But
    spokes are so small, six threads engagement is a good rule.
    6/56 < 1/10 inch believe it or not. That's about 0.100
    engagement on an .082 diameter IIRC. More than one
    diameter. Plenty.

    I used a router and small stone to dress my 18 long spokes,
    destroying the nipple heads, and never got around to putting
    on the new nipples. With a butyl rim strip on a dimpled rim,
    a butyl tube, and a 1.9 or 2.1 tire, it's never flatted in
    around 500 miles.

    God, what a shriek as the stone hits the spoke. Don't have a
    bench grinder at home. Ear protection with the router.

    My physics project at NVCC: Google Groups, then
    "dgoncz" and some of: ultracapacitor bicycle
    fluorescent flywheel inverter
     
  15. Doug Goncz

    Doug Goncz Guest

    Oh, sorry, I forgot. Most shops do have a bench grinder, and
    should be willing to pay for their poor inventory
    maintenance by grinding 18 spokes to the right lenght for
    free. With the grinder, it's easy.

    My physics project at NVCC: Google Groups, then
    "dgoncz" and some of: ultracapacitor bicycle
    fluorescent flywheel inverter
     
  16. Jacobe-<< My LBS calculated the spoke lengths for me, and
    gave me the same length for left and right (this is 7spd
    rear wheel, laced 3 cross). They told me I was in between
    sizes, but should be fine with what they gave me.

    Having built the wheel, the spokes on the right side
    protrude from the nipples by around 1-1.5mm. >><BR><BR>

    First biggest problem is the clueless bike shop that doesn't
    know enough to sell you shorter length spokes for the right.
    'in between sizes' my patooie. Sounds like they don't have
    the proper spoike lengths.

    If the spoke nipple is engaging enough threads of the spoke,
    and you can true the wheel. And if the end won't hit your
    rim strip and tube, it will be okay. But the bike shop needs
    to get it's head outta it's arse.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
    costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  17. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    " Doug Goncz " <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Oh, no, the spoke should initially tighten and true
    > _below_ the slot. It's gonna stretch. It should never be
    > in the slot during it's whole service lifetime.

    Spokes stretch?? Here we go... ;-)

    > God, what a shriek as the stone hits the spoke. Don't have
    > a bench grinder
    at
    > home. Ear protection with the router.

    For sure grinding is not the best solution. New spokes are.
    As you found out, grinding is a pain in both the ass and
    ears! I consider it a bit of a hack solution, but I always
    like perfection when it comes to bikes. But given the right
    circumstances, it IS a solution. To me, it's a lot like
    cutting a cable too long or too short. Still works but it
    looks bush league. As long as you KNOW it's bush league...

    Cheers,

    Scott..
     
  18. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    " Doug Goncz " <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Oh, no, the spoke should initially tighten and true
    > _below_ the slot. It's gonna stretch. It should never be
    > in the slot during it's whole service lifetime.

    Spokes stretch?? Here we go... ;-)

    > God, what a shriek as the stone hits the spoke. Don't have
    > a bench grinder
    at
    > home. Ear protection with the router.

    For sure grinding is not the best solution. New spokes are.
    As you found out, grinding is a pain in both the ass and
    ears! I consider it a bit of a hack solution, but I always
    like perfection when it comes to bikes. But given the right
    circumstances, it IS a solution. To me, it's a lot like
    cutting a cable too long or too short. Still works but it
    looks bush league. As long as you KNOW it's bush league...

    Cheers,

    Scott..
     
  19. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    "BaCardi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Condolences to the poster. Kinda sucks, but I don't think
    > the bike shop is going to be happy or willing to take back
    > spoke that have already been used.

    Condolences? Nobody died here... Don't overexaggerate the
    problem. I've done this numerous times and there are no long-
    term problems. In a prefect world, yeah, the spokes line up
    EXACTLY with the top of the nipple. In the world we live in
    (well, the one I live in..), you have a good 2-3mm extra you
    can use once the spoke goes through the nipple. If you have
    a dremel, the 5 mins to zap a mil off the spokes is a better
    solution, not just the easiest or fastest solution, when you
    compare it to the time reqiured to disassemble the wheel,
    return the spokes (fighting that battle..) and rebuild the
    wheel. 1mm is 1 turn on the nipple, more or less. In a
    properly tensioned wheel, an extra turn at the nipple is
    nearly impossible. He still has 2 or 3 more turns even after
    grinding them down. That's plenty. And structurally, there's
    nothing wrong with it. As I say, evaluate the situation, do
    the math, and get the grinder out.

    Scott..
     
  20. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    "BaCardi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Condolences to the poster. Kinda sucks, but I don't think
    > the bike shop is going to be happy or willing to take back
    > spoke that have already been used.

    Condolences? Nobody died here... Don't overexaggerate the
    problem. I've done this numerous times and there are no long-
    term problems. In a prefect world, yeah, the spokes line up
    EXACTLY with the top of the nipple. In the world we live in
    (well, the one I live in..), you have a good 2-3mm extra you
    can use once the spoke goes through the nipple. If you have
    a dremel, the 5 mins to zap a mil off the spokes is a better
    solution, not just the easiest or fastest solution, when you
    compare it to the time reqiured to disassemble the wheel,
    return the spokes (fighting that battle..) and rebuild the
    wheel. 1mm is 1 turn on the nipple, more or less. In a
    properly tensioned wheel, an extra turn at the nipple is
    nearly impossible. He still has 2 or 3 more turns even after
    grinding them down. That's plenty. And structurally, there's
    nothing wrong with it. As I say, evaluate the situation, do
    the math, and get the grinder out.

    Scott..
     
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