OK so how many 2007 TdF riders are doped?

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by Eldron, Jul 18, 2007.

  1. Trajectum

    Trajectum New Member

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    On the one hand most of the posters agree that at least half of the peleton was doped up.. On the other hand Armstrong can become the best in the world, not because he was actually good, but because he doped up?

    You're smarter than that bro.. If armstrong was doped, and the others were doped as well then his accomplishments were still great (and no I am not a lance fan). Its not like there is just 1 rider on dope in each tour.. and doped or not you still need to be good, smart and endurant to be able to win anything. Doping doesnt make heros from zeros, it might just give the already heros an extra edge. (you could fire me up with whatever you could throw at me untill almost lethal amounts and i would still come in 2 hours down on any particular mountain stage)
     


  2. Doctor.House

    Doctor.House New Member

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    Wow---I was unaware that all 189 riders recieved life scienctists 24/7 and Michele Ferrari supervision. Wow!

    It was a level playing field and the fastest Nike kidney function won.

    LIVE WRONG!
     
  3. Doctor.House

    Doctor.House New Member

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  4. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    It's never a level playing field. Dope affects different people differently, to larger and lesser degrees. We know that Ullrich was paying tens of thousands a year for his doping program. Armstrong was paying Dr. Ferrari hundreds of thousands for his. The funding difference was as much as a factor of ten.

    After the Festina affair, T-Mobile, like many teams, stopped their team supported doping program, leaving the riders to fend for themselves. After the Festina affair Postal, fired their doctor who would not go along with doping and hired others who would. Again a massive difference in the level of doping support.

    Armstrong was not a chump without dope, but he would never have placed in the top ten at the Tour if everyone were clean.
     
  5. Trajectum

    Trajectum New Member

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    Even Ferrari doesnt produce cyborgs.
     
  6. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    Judging by the calmness and facial expressions of his clients when they climb and how fresh they are when they finish, I'm afraid I'll need to see proof of that.
     
  7. Trajectum

    Trajectum New Member

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    Well.. you probably do have a few pointers there I ll give u that. But doped or undoped you still need a special state of mind and will to be able to control the tour for so many years and come out on top each time. He would have no doubtedly been a lot less good without it (I wouldnt say out of the top ten though) but he still did it and he definately showed winners mentallity doing so.
     
  8. Klodifan

    Klodifan New Member

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    actually traj, dope effect people differently. so you cant honestly say that LA's feats were even that more great. it wasnt an equal playing field. even admitted doper, zabel, said he didnt like the way EPO made him feel. so ok, take that with a grain of salt, but still. the best evidence of doping is to compare LA pre and post ferrari. seems pretty clear to me.
     
  9. Klodifan

    Klodifan New Member

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    ok traj, i will give you that point. LA did have a specail state of mind, no doubt. a sociopathic state of mind. seriously. look it up :)
     
  10. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    It must drive you guys up the wall every time you see LA knowing he is the TDF's greatest rider. Bro Deal, you don't have a clue what T-Mobile did after the Festina affair with their organized doping. . Considering that the same medical staff was on the payroll until a few months ago, I doubt if festina even slowed up the T-Mobile doping machine. Festina had nothing to do with T-Mobile. It's expected that you would not know that . I doubt if you were even a fan of the sport back then.
     
  11. Trajectum

    Trajectum New Member

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    Was.. or if u meant ever then... uche... merckx... uche..

    And as for doping in the tour now. I guess almost evryone shoots something.. at least doping with their own blood, many probably epo and some will also use other stuff during the tour nd/or out of competition to build the right muscle to mass ratios.

    If the test results were public i m pretty sure that almost all of the runners have a hematocrit value of ~48 %. (50 % treshold isnt it?). Anyway i dont like how fans and media tend to single a single runner out and burn him to the ground when its common knowledge that everyone does. N who can blame them as well? If you were born with a naturally lowish hematocrit value of lets say 40 % but u happened to be good at cycling wouldnt you want it up as well? like hell you would. You wouldnt stand a chance to pursue your career and life long dream if you didnt.

    Now you can spend 7 months a year on the top of a mountain.. u can sleep in altitude tents and get some effect. or u can use the plasm from ur own blood which has 0 % danger and gives better results. Or even use epo which gives the same high values as doping ur own plasm but then with all fresh cells which is better but which on the other hand has side effects.

    Whichever method you choose you d better make sure to get that red bloodcell count up to a level where you can compete because the tour is devestating. And peronally.. I dont see too much wrong with it. Sure some runners respond to dope better than others and sure the ones that had naturally high hem values have bad luck here but taht just comes with the package i m afraid. We expect cyclists to throw a way more devistating performance for a way longer period of time than in any other sport (seriously.. what comes close to the tour?), and then we blame them for using all methods available for doing it.

    PS:
    I am for checks. i am for tresholds and i would never give doping free. Some runners are dumb (and glory seeking) enough to try hematocritvalues of possibly lethal proportions to get better results. By checking for tresholds they are forced to keep it down to safe and normal standards. as fair as it gets and safe for the runners..

    PPS:
    Answer this question to yourself in all honesty:
    suppose you ride in the tour. Now suppose you are almost a contender but you get your ass waxed by about 20 runners ahead of you. Press and fans call you an "allmost" and a "wheel clinger". why? Because your red cell count is low. and you can improve it. simply.. and safe... and all the other 20 already do... wouldnt you?

    you know the answer... hypocrits
     
  12. SLG

    SLG New Member

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    Going back to the original question, I can only be certain that David Millar is not doping, I think he has learnt his lesson and is now 100% clean. But he's not the only won I believe though, others such as Contador, Leipheimer and others seem clean. I would say that less than 30% now dope especially with the new thingy they had to sign, that probably made most of them stop. Lastly I think that Iban Mayo may have been doping in the earlier days - 2003, 2004, but his collapse in winning was probably due to him stopping. Those are my opinions anyway. Lets all keep our fingers crossed for a clean sport!
     
  13. LaarsX

    LaarsX New Member

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    Contador clean...??

    you have a laugh or what?

    Several bags of blood we found at OP with the initals AC on them, plus a variety of other materials that could be linked back to him (invoices, bills etc etc) now for some reason this has been dropped.. just like the bags that were marked 'Valv Piti' have failed to be 'linked with Valverde...

    Anyhow, Contador is now a member of Team LA, and that brings it own benifits... and its own sources.. not to mention membership of THE most successful programme....
     
  14. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    What all of this shows is that the decision not to tackle doping has resulted in the current mess.

    The 1998 wakeup call was the final chance for the sport but Mr Verbruggen and co abdicated when it came to tackling the problem.

    Thus we have had 9 years of performances being questioned.

    The sport's credibility is practically being destroyed : media organisations are walking away from covering races, sponsors are dropping commercial backing for races, riders/support staff are losing their jobs, teams are having difficulty finding sponsors.
    Riders are still continuing to dope and are getting caught.

    All performances are tainted because the perception is that the sport is still a haven for doping.
    The clean riders (and there are clean riders) lose out in racing terms, they also lose out by having their performances questioned because of doping by association.
    All of this happens when you have a sport which takes (and has taken) a very ambiguous line when it comes to doping.

    I think fans deserve better.
     
  15. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    Agreed.

    Verbruggen, McQuaid, and everyone associated with them must go. They have been asleep at the switch for too long.
     
  16. tommyadrian5

    tommyadrian5 New Member

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    I find the fact that you will rag on armstrong and support kloden (obvious doper numero uno) a little hypocritical.
     
  17. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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    I think cycling [cycling federations, UCI, and the TDF } knew before the Festina Affair of the exact scope of the doping going on.. Verbruggen knew the fans would accept what he put on the table. And we have. The sponsors know, the fans know, and the cycling powers know. But we all flocked to the side of the road hoping to see our heros.

    There is so much twisted views in cycling...... The French do not want Riis's and Zabels jerseys to mean anything, but the polka dot Richard Vee gets a free walk. Basso/JU get eliminated with nothing but a nikname [at the time], but the chicken has confirmed reasons he should have not been allowed to ride.

    I don't think there is an answer to "professional cycling." There simply is too much money involved. And I honestly think 99% of the fans really do not care. I think as a fan we have to make a choice in sports. We have to watch them and know of the doping, or we move on to something real low key at the local level.

    The uncertainity is what is going to kill cycling....... We do not know who won 2006, we will have to wait to see how much pressure the RAZ gets if he wins......
    The UCI nad the TDF needs to get on the same page and work together.
     
  18. ATM

    ATM New Member

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    The answer to the original question can now be proven to be "at least 1.05%".
     
  19. snood

    snood New Member

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  20. wolfix

    wolfix New Member

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