OK to shift internal-gear hub while stopped?

[[email protected]]

On Nov 26, 10:40 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> [email protected] aka Mike Schwab wrote:
>
> Only weirdos would combine a 3x7 hub and a triple crank: see
> <http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm>.
>
> Carry a spare indicator chain for the 3x7 hub, lest you get stuck in
> 1.36:1 overdrive.

I have not broken it, but I have not successfully reinstalled the gear
changer on the end of the axle after my two rear flat tires. I was
stuck in high after the first flat, low after the second.

My new bike, Rans VII Formulae 26 HD xtracycle
http://images.kodakgallery.com/servlet/Images/photos4240/8/13/99/82/62/0/62829913812_0_BG.jpg?a=38
http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slidesh...deshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Ux=0&mode=fromshare

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
> differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
> excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

 

[renum]

Chip C wrote:
> A bike mechanic at a reputable LBS suggested against shifting an
> internal-gear hub (in this case, a Nexus 7) when stopped (in this
> case, when sitting on the bike in his showroom). This took me by
> surprise as I thought that the ability to downshift after a stop was
> one of the big plusses of such hubs. When pressed he said it
> "stretches the cable" but allowed that his ingrained derailleur
> experience may be part of his thinking.
>
> His showroom, his rules, but I routinely downshift my S-A AW at stops
> and I routinely adjust the cable too; isn't that what cables are for?
>
> Am seeking rbt's collective wisdom on this one.

I think that translates to "don't f@ck with the bike until you have paid
for it"

 

[POHB]

On 26 Nov, 16:32, John Everett
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >His showroom, his rules, but I routinely downshift my S-A AW at stops
>
> >Am seeking rbt's collective wisdom on this one.
>
> Sounds like the "collective wisdom" we lived by when Sturmey-Archer
> 3-speed hubs were ubiquitous on "English racers" of the 50s. Perhaps
> this was pure superstition, but we would never shift gears while
> stopped.

On all my old SAs I'd shift when stopped by back-pedalling at the same
time as shifting. It was normal to back-pedal slightly or freewheel
when shifting even when moving. Took me ages to get used to pedalling
forward when shifting when I got my first derailleur.

 

[nmp]

Tom Sherman wrote:

s would combine a 3x7 hub and a triple crank: see
> <http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm>.

Wow. That's... Green!

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On Nov 26, 5:09 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Hank Wirtz writes:
> >> A bike mechanic at a reputable LBS suggested against shifting an
> >> internal-gear hub (in this case, a Nexus 7) when stopped (in this
> >> case, when sitting on the bike in his showroom). This took me by
> >> surprise as I thought that the ability to downshift after a stop
> >> was one of the big plusses of such hubs. When pressed he said it
> >> "stretches the cable" but allowed that his ingrained derailleur
> >> experience may be part of his thinking.
> >> His showroom, his rules, but I routinely downshift my S-A AW at
> >> stops and I routinely adjust the cable too; isn't that what cables
> >> are for?
> >> Am seeking rbt's collective wisdom on this one.
> > Sturmey-Archer actually recommends that you shift when NOT pedaling
> > on their 8-speed internal.
>
> I haven't seen those instructions but what you cite needs further
> qualification. As far as I know this is intended to be done when the
> wheel is turning because the driver "clutch" has positions in which it
> cannot mesh with the interposers it must enter.
>
> My experience is that such hubs have gear changes that should NOT be
> performed under load although they should always be done when the
> wheel is turning and even with the pedals rotating, but not under
> load. Typically, an SA three-speed won't shift into top gear under
> continuous pedaling load, but will do so as soon as drive torque
> approaches zero. That ought to be a clue to what occurs.
>
> Jobst Brandt

The XRF-8 manual states:

"1.3 Gear Changing
Stop pedal and select the gear required,
then go on pedaling. If the bicycle is
stationary simply select gear required."

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/pdfs/XRF8.pdf

 

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Mike Schwab wrote:
> ...
> My new bike, Rans VII Formulae 26 HD xtracycle
> http://images.kodakgallery.com/servlet/Images/photos4240/8/13/99/82/62/0/62829913812_0_BG.jpg?a=38
> http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slidesh...deshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Ux=0&mode=fromshare
>

Mike needs a longer bicycle.

You will be excommunicated from The Church of RANS, if you continue to
write "Rans".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

 

[[email protected]]

Hank Wirtz writes:

>>>> A bike mechanic at a reputable LBS suggested against shifting an
>>>> internal-gear hub (in this case, a Nexus 7) when stopped (in this
>>>> case, when sitting on the bike in his showroom). This took me by
>>>> surprise as I thought that the ability to downshift after a stop
>>>> was one of the big plusses of such hubs. When pressed he said it
>>>> "stretches the cable" but allowed that his ingrained derailleur
>>>> experience may be part of his thinking.

>>>> His showroom, his rules, but I routinely downshift my S-A AW at
>>>> stops and I routinely adjust the cable too; isn't that what
>>>> cables are for?

>>>> Am seeking rbt's collective wisdom on this one.

>>> Sturmey-Archer actually recommends that you shift when NOT
>>> pedaling on their 8-speed internal.

>> I haven't seen those instructions but what you cite needs further
>> qualification. As far as I know this is intended to be done when
>> the wheel is turning because the driver "clutch" has positions in
>> which it cannot mesh with the interposers it must enter.

>> My experience is that such hubs have gear changes that should NOT
>> be performed under load although they should always be done when
>> the wheel is turning and even with the pedals rotating, but not
>> under load. Typically, an SA three-speed won't shift into top gear
>> under continuous pedaling load, but will do so as soon as drive
>> torque approaches zero. That ought to be a clue to what occurs.

> The XRF-8 manual states:

> "1.3 Gear Changing

> Stop pedal and select the gear required, then go on pedaling. If the
> bicycle is stationary simply select gear required."

> http://www.sturmey-archer.com/pdfs/XRF8.pdf

This is not for an AW hub. The hubs to which this refers apparently
have a spring load between shift cable and clutch so that after
selecting a gear, it will engage on it's own when the gears begin to
move. The reason for not pedaling while shifting is that torque might
be applied when a gear is partially engaged.

Jobst Brandt

 

[meb]

[email protected] aka Mike Schwab wrote:
>
>> I have long considered switching to one of these hubs on my recumbent
>> that I ride mostly in town. It's not always possible to anticipate all
>> stops. And on a recumbent it's not as easy to start in a high gear as it
>> is to start in a high gear on a diamond frame bicycle.
>
> I have done that with my EZ-1, had a rear wheel built around a 3 * 7
> hub. When I top out the other gears, I try the overdrive, and the
> loss would increase to where I would slow down, so I was almost always
> in the middle gear. It was real handy when I forgot to downshift
> before stopping and changed the hub, a lot easier getting going, and
> up hills when I hit granny granny. 3 * 3 * 7 = 63 gears.

Only weirdos would combine a 3x7 hub and a triple crank: see
<http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm>.

Carry a spare indicator chain for the 3x7 hub, lest you get stuck in
1.36:1 overdrive.
<snip>

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

I have such a failure. I notice the chain appears to have broke due to a jamming of the hub in overdrive with the shifter pulling the chain appart. Is there a more detailed explanation of the nature of the failure and appropriate remedification?

 

[Tom Sherman]

meb wrote:
> Tom Sherman Wrote:
>> [email protected] aka Mike Schwab wrote:
>>>> I have long considered switching to one of these hubs on my
>> recumbent
>>>> that I ride mostly in town. It's not always possible to anticipate
>> all
>>>> stops. And on a recumbent it's not as easy to start in a high gear
>> as it
>>>> is to start in a high gear on a diamond frame bicycle.
>>> I have done that with my EZ-1, had a rear wheel built around a 3 * 7
>>> hub. When I top out the other gears, I try the overdrive, and the
>>> loss would increase to where I would slow down, so I was almost
>> always
>>> in the middle gear. It was real handy when I forgot to downshift
>>> before stopping and changed the hub, a lot easier getting going, and
>>> up hills when I hit granny granny. 3 * 3 * 7 = 63 gears.
>> Only weirdos would combine a 3x7 hub and a triple crank: see
>> <http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm>.
>>
>> Carry a spare indicator chain for the 3x7 hub, lest you get stuck in
>> 1.36:1 overdrive.
>> <snip>
>>
>
> I have such a failure. I notice the chain appears to have broke due to
> a jamming of the hub in overdrive with the shifter pulling the chain
> appart. Is there a more detailed explanation of the nature of the
> failure and appropriate remedification?
>
I think I broke my indicator chain when mounting the bicycle in a rear
wheel trainer.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:09:35 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

> Hank Wirtz writes:

>> Sturmey-Archer actually recommends that you shift when NOT pedaling
>> on their 8-speed internal.

I've never heard this about an internal gear hub.

> I haven't seen those instructions but what you cite needs further
> qualification. As far as I know this is intended to be done when the
> wheel is turning because the driver "clutch" has positions in which it
> cannot mesh with the interposers it must enter.
>
> My experience is that such hubs have gear changes that should NOT be
> performed under load although they should always be done when the wheel
> is turning and even with the pedals rotating, but not under load.
> Typically, an SA three-speed won't shift into top gear under continuous
> pedaling load, but will do so as soon as drive torque approaches zero.
> That ought to be a clue to what occurs.

I always thought these hubs were pretty tolerant of abuse, at least by
casual riders. People shift while stopped, while under load, etc. There
are plenty of "abused," 50 year old examples still cruising around.
Strong riders do destroy these hubs, but most people probably don't need
to worry.

I wonder how good the latest crop of these hubs are, compared to previous
ones. I know they're more efficient, but how about strength and abuse
tolerance?

Matt O.

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On Nov 27, 10:05 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Hank Wirtz writes:
> >>>> A bike mechanic at a reputable LBS suggested against shifting an
> >>>> internal-gear hub (in this case, a Nexus 7) when stopped (in this
> >>>> case, when sitting on the bike in his showroom). This took me by
> >>>> surprise as I thought that the ability to downshift after a stop
> >>>> was one of the big plusses of such hubs. When pressed he said it
> >>>> "stretches the cable" but allowed that his ingrained derailleur
> >>>> experience may be part of his thinking.
> >>>> His showroom, his rules, but I routinely downshift my S-A AW at
> >>>> stops and I routinely adjust the cable too; isn't that what
> >>>> cables are for?
> >>>> Am seeking rbt's collective wisdom on this one.
> >>> Sturmey-Archer actually recommends that you shift when NOT
> >>> pedaling on their 8-speed internal.
> >> I haven't seen those instructions but what you cite needs further
> >> qualification. As far as I know this is intended to be done when
> >> the wheel is turning because the driver "clutch" has positions in
> >> which it cannot mesh with the interposers it must enter.
> >> My experience is that such hubs have gear changes that should NOT
> >> be performed under load although they should always be done when
> >> the wheel is turning and even with the pedals rotating, but not
> >> under load. Typically, an SA three-speed won't shift into top gear
> >> under continuous pedaling load, but will do so as soon as drive
> >> torque approaches zero. That ought to be a clue to what occurs.
> > The XRF-8 manual states:
> > "1.3 Gear Changing
> > Stop pedal and select the gear required, then go on pedaling. If the
> > bicycle is stationary simply select gear required."
> >http://www.sturmey-archer.com/pdfs/XRF8.pdf
>
> This is not for an AW hub. The hubs to which this refers apparently
> have a spring load between shift cable and clutch so that after
> selecting a gear, it will engage on it's own when the gears begin to
> move. The reason for not pedaling while shifting is that torque might
> be applied when a gear is partially engaged.
>
> Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Nor did I say that it was. OP was talking about a modern Nexus, then
compared to his SA AW. I was pointing out that SA's rules for the old
ones don't apply to new ones, even by SA.

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Matt O'Toole:
>I wonder how good the latest crop of these hubs are, compared to previous
>ones. I know they're more efficient, but how about strength and abuse
>tolerance?

My two Rohloffs have been abused a good bit. About 10k miles
between them. I weigh about 220 and use a chain ring somewhat
smaller than the minimum size called for by Rohloff - figuring
that if they use the things on tandems, even my 220# of lard on a
smaller ring can't exceed that.

I do a lot of out-of-the-saddle pedaling and also my share of
partial shifts (where the gears don't quite engage...).... enough
that next oil change I'll probably run the old oil over a magnet
just to see what comes out.

Managed to blow a seal on one by changing the oil improperly (put
in too much new oil).

Other than that, no apparent problems so far.
--
PeteCresswell

 

[A Muzi]

>> Hank Wirtz writes:

>>> Sturmey-Archer actually recommends that you shift when NOT pedaling
>>> on their 8-speed internal.

Matt O'Toole wrote:
> I've never heard this about an internal gear hub.

> jobst.brandt wrote:
>> I haven't seen those instructions but what you cite needs further
>> qualification. As far as I know this is intended to be done when the
>> wheel is turning because the driver "clutch" has positions in which it
>> cannot mesh with the interposers it must enter.
>> My experience is that such hubs have gear changes that should NOT be
>> performed under load although they should always be done when the wheel
>> is turning and even with the pedals rotating, but not under load.
>> Typically, an SA three-speed won't shift into top gear under continuous
>> pedaling load, but will do so as soon as drive torque approaches zero.
>> That ought to be a clue to what occurs.

Matt O'Toole wrote:
> I always thought these hubs were pretty tolerant of abuse, at least by
> casual riders. People shift while stopped, while under load, etc. There
> are plenty of "abused," 50 year old examples still cruising around.
> Strong riders do destroy these hubs, but most people probably don't need
> to worry.
> I wonder how good the latest crop of these hubs are, compared to previous
> ones. I know they're more efficient, but how about strength and abuse
> tolerance?

The flat-faced clutch can't downshift past an AW's blunt second gear
nubbies, as Jobst noted already, if it lines up. Any slight motion of
the wheel (or backpedaling) will allow a proper shift.

Pulling a gear cable tight against a not-sliding clutch may damage the
cable fittings, but not the hub itself.

Pedaling forcefully while shifting from 2d to high can/will chip the
clutch and/or the protruding high gear pins in short order.

More modern systems such as SRAM Sevens have pointy engagement points
which can't jam when shifted while dead stopped.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:59:59 -0800 (PST), Chip C <[email protected]>
wrote:

>A bike mechanic at a reputable LBS suggested against shifting an
>internal-gear hub (in this case, a Nexus 7) when stopped (in this
>case, when sitting on the bike in his showroom). This took me by
>surprise as I thought that the ability to downshift after a stop was
>one of the big plusses of such hubs. When pressed he said it
>"stretches the cable" but allowed that his ingrained derailleur
>experience may be part of his thinking.

It's not just OK, but S-A AWs, at least, and many other gearhubs besides,
don't shift at all (well) while pedalling. You need to at least hold still
the pedals while shifting and occasionaly move them backwards a bit before
it will engage the gear selected. That's why the manual says "spin the
pedals back for one revolution", that gives you both the backwards
movement and the time.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:44:11 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:

>I've heard that some Sturmey users would shift but keep the pedal
>pressure on, knowing they'd get the desired auto-shift when they eased
>off.

Done that, but it's a party trick. Not particularly useful.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:13:28 -0800, Ted Bennett <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Indeed, that is one of the main benefits of an internal gear hub! I
>> currently have five bikes with such hubs (plus 3 with derailers and 1
>> singlespeed), and this feature is quite handy. One does not need to
>> back-pedal, but just ease up on pedal pressure for a second at most.
>> I've used Sturmey, Shimano (old and Nexus) as well as Sachs 5 and 7
>> speed hubs this way.
>
>Did you really mean to say that you have a bike with an internally
>geared hub which is a singlespeed? Does not compute, or else the hub is
>broken.

Not what he said, but internally geared fixed-gear hubs exist from S-A.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On 27 Nov 2007 01:09:35 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>My experience is that such hubs have gear changes that should NOT be
>performed under load although they should always be done when the
>wheel is turning and even with the pedals rotating, but not under
>load. Typically, an SA three-speed won't shift into top gear under
>continuous pedaling load, but will do so as soon as drive torque
>approaches zero. That ought to be a clue to what occurs.

Not unlike rampless cogsets on a derailer, in that respect, you can force
the shift in the direction in which you pull the cable, but the direction
in which you loosen the cable and the spring pulls it back, the spring
force is quite often not enough to overcome vigorous pedalling.

But S-A three speed hubs almost always shift immediately with wheel and
pedals stopped. Very occasionally a shift will be blocked with both
stopped, but this requires an unusual position.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:37:54 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

>Pedaling forcefully while shifting from 2d to high can/will chip the
>clutch and/or the protruding high gear pins in short order.

Nah. 2 to 3 is no issue, 3 to 2 seems to be, though. Going by the sounds
and feels they make when you do it.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:53:51 GMT, renum <[email protected]> wrote:
>Chip C wrote:
>> A bike mechanic at a reputable LBS suggested against shifting an
>> internal-gear hub (in this case, a Nexus 7) when stopped (in this
>> case, when sitting on the bike in his showroom). This took me by
>> surprise as I thought that the ability to downshift after a stop was
>> one of the big plusses of such hubs. When pressed he said it
>> "stretches the cable" but allowed that his ingrained derailleur
>> experience may be part of his thinking.
>>
>> His showroom, his rules, but I routinely downshift my S-A AW at stops
>> and I routinely adjust the cable too; isn't that what cables are for?
>>
>> Am seeking rbt's collective wisdom on this one.
>
>I think that translates to "don't f@ck with the bike until you have paid
>for it"

It translates into "My showroom gear is intended for my showroom, and not
to sell to you plebes who might actually want to touch and feel something
before buying, since I charge about a 50% premium over an internet shop
and that is *all* I have going for me in response."


Jasper

 

[A Muzi]

> On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:37:54 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Pedaling forcefully while shifting from 2d to high can/will chip the
>> clutch and/or the protruding high gear pins in short order.

Jasper Janssen wrote:
> Nah. 2 to 3 is no issue, 3 to 2 seems to be, though. Going by the sounds
> and feels they make when you do it.

In service, wear is normally most pronounced on the bottom of the
clutch, not the top. Gear pin tops are usually chipped whereas 2d gear
lands are rarely worn.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971