Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !



daveryanwyoming

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edd said:
... So I always leave them to late in the week (Thursdays) Friday off the bike and am fresh for road ride on Sunday.....
I used that approach for a long time but do things just the opposite these days. I do my hardest, shortest workouts early in my training week and reduce intensity but increase duration on following days. This time of year it's pretty subtle since I don't do short intervals during winter base building but I'll still do my hardest efforts but shortest workouts early in the week.

I first saw this proposed by Greg Lemond in his book 20 or so years ago but was reluctant to try it. It seemed I might go too hard early in the week and be too tired for decent training later in the week. Well it took me a long time to really give it a go, but I find it works really well to start hard and short and work towards easier and longer. For one thing I do my hardest workout when I'm most fresh. But I also finish each workout knowing my following workout will be easier. That's a big mental advantage late in a training block. I also finish my midweek block with a longer Tempo/low SST session which is easy to recover from which sets me up well for weekend riding or racing.

Like I said it's pretty academic this time of year when I'm only focusing on FTP and CTL but as I transition into preseason prep and then into racing I'll definitely be using a ramp down in intensity but up in duration approach to my weekly training. I know it's counterintuitive and I was skeptical for a long time but I'm amazed at how well this approach works.

YMMV,
-Dave
 

edd

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daveryanwyoming said:
I used that approach for a long time but do things just the opposite these days. I do my hardest, shortest workouts early in my training week and reduce intensity but increase duration on following days. YMMV,
-Dave

I'm bound by class timetable for indoor stuff and have conditioned my Sunday afternoon class to do base work and for me a recovery ride… after the mornings road ride, Monday, Wed, Thur, are all spin class stuff (intervals) I choose how hard I work and can work through recovery blocks. Tuesdays are a 30 min recovery spin only at home. Friday is day off. Saturday can either be base work at home or on the road.

I do really need to structure my training more though it is not unstructured now. That said never been as quick on a bike or as fast up a hill as I'm at the moment, better now at 59 then I was at 35.

The most significant thing that has change in my training is I ride less but not less often. I work very hard for very short periods and put in a good three to four hours of uninterrupted road work once a week.

I really do need to focus on building steady state power.
 

edd

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daveryanwyoming said:
I used that approach for a long time but do things just the opposite these days. YMMV,
-Dave

Sorry about that …

The mess looks like this

So if the week starts from the dayoff (Fri)
Saturday easy 1 hr L2 work,
Sunday biggest volume 4 to 5 hrs mix of L2, L3, L4 and L5 work.
Mondays are class intervals for participants I do L2 - L3 work.
Tuesday 30 min L1
Wednesday 50 min L5-L6
Thurdsay 1 hr L4-L5
Friday rest
 

daveryanwyoming

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edd said:
So if the week starts from the dayoff (Fri)
Saturday easy 1 hr L2 work,
Sunday biggest volume 4 to 5 hrs mix of L2, L3, L4 and L5 work.
Mondays are class intervals for participants I do L2 - L3 work.
Tuesday 30 min L1
Wednesday 50 min L5-L6
Thurdsay 1 hr L4-L5
Friday rest
I'm having trouble following you edd, just last week you posted this in another thread:
edd said:
...This meant I was now off the bike Mondays/ Tuesdays and Friday/Saturday doing only three days a week...
and you touted that lower volume schedule as your road to success. Now it seems you're riding a lot more with quite a bit of L5 and some L6 during your typical training week. So is this a new plan you're testing out or what you were doing before dropping to 3 days a week?

Again, I don't know where you are in your annual schedule or if you do any macro periodization (base build, preseason prep, competitive season, recovery) or just work towards the same training year round. But at least here during the winter I wouldn't be doing nearly so much high end work on a weekly basis. Sure the occasional L5 effort to see how I'm doing or to raise my aerobic ceiling and I know folks that do a bit of L6 regularly on the "use it or lose it" philosophy but it seems like your week is weighted pretty heavily in that direction.

'Course if your events are coming up soon or you don't target any particular peaks during the year then I guess it doesn't matter so much. I do recall some mention of the Master's Games later in the year. IIRC those are six to eight months away. If so I'd back off the high end work and do some more core aerobic base building in the L2-L4 range this time of year.

Good luck,
Dave
 

edd

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daveryanwyoming said:
I'm having trouble following you edd, just last week you posted this in another thread:
and you touted that lower volume schedule as your road to success. Now it seems you're riding a lot more with quite a bit of L5 and some L6 during your typical training week. So is this a new plan you're testing out or what you were doing before dropping to 3 days a week?

Again, I don't know where you are in your annual schedule or if you do any macro periodization (base build, preseason prep, competitive season, recovery) or just work towards the same training year round. But at least here during the winter I wouldn't be doing nearly so much high end work on a weekly basis. Sure the occasional L5 effort to see how I'm doing or to raise my aerobic ceiling and I know folks that do a bit of L6 regularly on the "use it or lose it" philosophy but it seems like your week is weighted pretty heavily in that direction.

'Course if your events are coming up soon or you don't target any particular peaks during the year then I guess it doesn't matter so much. I do recall some mention of the Master's Games later in the year. IIRC those are six to eight months away. If so I'd back off the high end work and do some more core aerobic base building in the L2-L4 range this time of year.

Good luck,
Dave

Testing new work load. Masters games are in October 2009.
Was off the bike Monday, Tuesdays, Fridays Saturdays. Over Christmas I've been doing an additional spin class on Mondays while the club tries to find another instructor. Last few weeks started to do recovery spins 30 min Tuesday mornings, and 1 hr of base-work on Sat … in response to the feed back on that thread you mentioned.

I'm not racing, never raced, but am thinking on it, did TTs every month in 2005. Discovered I suck at TTs not high enough steady state power or steady state in my training at that time.

I was doing 7 hrs of training in the 32 hrs from 6 am Sunday to 8pm Monday and this was too much to recover from so I stopped instructing the double class on Mondays … and I improved and kept improving over the following three months. Hard to tell if improvement is continuing, bods I ride with have been off their bikes for a month and have gained weight/lost fitness.

Time for a power meter … looking at a new bike too, was offered a really really good deal if I get the new bike with the power tap.

As a rule, even though I don't race, I cut the intensity of the entire work load over Jan. Feb. Focus on base-work. Because of spin class instructing I still do a lot of short high intensity intervals but only are a few at actual training intensity.

Wasn't touting lower volume schedule was a road to success. Just it was proving to be successful for me.

I don't think it is possible to do L6 work two days in a row.
 

rmur17

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daveryanwyoming said:
Sure, extending interval time is a great way to increase stress without necessarily jumping to higher power. I do that this time of year with 20 minute intervals extending to 30, 45.. somewhere around 45-55 minutes and I'll bump the power up in the next similar session. Rick got me thinking in terms of playing with the time dimension and it works really well for those mid SST efforts.

Come spring I'll do L5 work just as you suggest starting with 3 minute efforts and extending them to 5 or more minutes before bumping the power up. It's a bit tougher with L6 and L7 work, they're fairly short to start with and I don't want to "water down" L7 sprints, I'd prefer to keep them short sweet and fast.

-Dave
time is on our side. Or something like that :D ...

I have to confess that when i got back into training this fall after (for me) quite a break

(Phase 1): I reverted to my nasty OLD, OLD habit of targetting upper L4 in the 15-20MP range rather than FTP. I just couldn't accept I'd lost that much threshold power.

Result: Four weeks of workouts where I *felt* pretty good since I was still pushing 400W albeit for 15min at a time. Progress in this period: NIL despite four to five L4 workouts per week. CTL rose from 65 to maybe 75 ... no movement in workout power/duration.

Analysis: No progress, not sticking to my own training plan, making the 2003-2004 mistakes again.

(Phase 2): Read my own training manual :D. Decided it wasn't bollocks and dropped the power to 350-360W for my L4 work.

Result: Four weeks of workouts where I *felt* less manly :eek: but started to progress in power/duration right away. Working power up around 30W. CTL up 25 pts ....

Analysis: Don't try and re-invent the wheel. Circular is quite good.
 

Ade Merckx

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rmur17 said:
time is on our side. Or something like that :D ...

I have to confess that when i got back into training this fall after (for me) quite a break

(Phase 1): I reverted to my nasty OLD, OLD habit of targetting upper L4 in the 15-20MP range rather than FTP. I just couldn't accept I'd lost that much threshold power.

Result: Four weeks of workouts where I *felt* pretty good since I was still pushing 400W albeit for 15min at a time. Progress in this period: NIL despite four to five L4 workouts per week. CTL rose from 65 to maybe 75 ... no movement in workout power/duration.

Analysis: No progress, not sticking to my own training plan, making the 2003-2004 mistakes again.

(Phase 2): Read my own training manual :D. Decided it wasn't bollocks and dropped the power to 350-360W for my L4 work.

Result: Four weeks of workouts where I *felt* less manly :eek: but started to progress in power/duration right away. Working power up around 30W. CTL up 25 pts ....

Analysis: Don't try and re-invent the wheel. Circular is quite good.
Mmm so Rick what would you recommend for someone who in an FT test hit 300watts and was thinking of moving his 3 x 20's in the 285-310 range up to 295-320. Is that a good move? or should I go 4 x 20 on the former? Cheers
 

postal_bag

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Ade Merckx said:
Mmm so Rick what would you recommend for someone who in an FT test hit 300watts and was thinking of moving his 3 x 20's in the 285-310 range up to 295-320. Is that a good move? or should I go 4 x 20 on the former? Cheers
I'm not Rick, but I too am a big SST fan. I would include 1 or 2 workouts a week where you accumulate 80-100' at 275-285 w. Something like 3 x 30', 2 x 40', 1 x 90', etc.

I find that it's important, at least psychologically, to extend past that 20' mark if the intensity of the interval is below FTP. Also I find it important (psychologically) to accumulate more that 60' of total interval time when working at this lower intensity.
 

rmur17

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Ade Merckx said:
Mmm so Rick what would you recommend for someone who in an FT test hit 300watts and was thinking of moving his 3 x 20's in the 285-310 range up to 295-320. Is that a good move? or should I go 4 x 20 on the former? Cheers
How much has your FTP risen lately or in this test? Do you feel like you've plateaued in any way on your current routine? How long before you *need* that FTP (race seriously)?

I have only questions: no answers :D
 

Ade Merckx

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rmur17 said:
How much has your FTP risen lately or in this test?
I have only questions: no answers :D
mmm hard to tell, as I mentioned FTP was 270ish roughly in Nov 07, could i have performed a 300w ft a month ago i doubt it.
Do you feel like you've plateaued in any way on your current routine? ?
Not really
How long before you *need* that FTP (race seriously)
Mid to late march
postal_bag said:
I'm not Rick, but I too am a big SST fan. I would include 1 or 2 workouts a week where you accumulate 80-100' at 275-285 w. Something like 3 x 30', 2 x 40', 1 x 90', etc.

I find that it's important, at least psychologically, to extend past that 20' mark if the intensity of the interval is below FTP. Also I find it important (psychologically) to accumulate more that 60' of total interval time when working at this lower intensity.
Yeah that sounds good. I generally do 90-120 hour sweet spot efforts outdoors.
 

rmur17

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Ade Merckx said:
mmm hard to tell, as I mentioned FTP was 270ish roughly in Nov 07, could i have performed a 300w ft a month ago i doubt it. Not really Mid to late march Yeah that sounds good. I generally do 90-120 hour sweet spot efforts outdoors.
Since you've increased power 30W in a couple of months, you've not plateaued and your racing is about two months away, I don't see any good reason to mess with your routine.

Specifically if your core L4 work is based around 3x20's, I'd raise the power on those to what you can manage vs. adding an extra interval.

That's seeing you're pretty close to the season. If it were October, I might suggest something different. If you were racing next month, something different again.

Sorry if you've already answered this but what are your target races and lengths? I've just been assuming TT's.
 

Ade Merckx

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rmur17 said:
Sorry if you've already answered this but what are your target races and lengths? I've just been assuming TT's.
No problem, I appreciate feedback from yourself and others. Basically last year I was a 2nd cat only in name. In terms of fitness I was really just an average 3rd cat which was proven when I eventually gave up trying to maintain 2nd cat status.

Ok target races this year are two stage races in March and August and a Vet national also in late summer. Uptill then I'm happy to race whenever. Once I achieve 2nd cat status (By end of May hopefully) I'll ease back and build up towards August. Thanks :)
 

postal_bag

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Ade Merckx said:
No problem, I appreciate feedback from yourself and others. Basically last year I was a 2nd cat only in name. In terms of fitness I was really just an average 3rd cat which was proven when I eventually gave up trying to maintain 2nd cat status.

Ok target races this year are two stage races in March and August and a Vet national also in late summer. Uptill then I'm happy to race whenever. Once I achieve 2nd cat status (By end of May hopefully) I'll ease back and build up towards August. Thanks :)
I did a new workout on Sunday: 3x40' on, 5' off

I averaged 91.9%, 92.6%, and 92.3% FTP

Maybe this is SST overkill. I think I'm addicted.
 

swampy1970

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5min ride at approx 90 pedal rev/min, work heart rate 155 - 165 beats/min;
2min rest (pedalling slowly);
5 x 2min at approx 100 pedal rev/min with 30sec rest between each, work heart rate 170 - 180 beats/min;
5min rest (pedalling slowly)
10 x 1min at approx 110 pedal rev/min with 30sec rest between each, work heart rate 175 - 185 beats/min;
2min rest (pedalling slowly);
10 x 30sec at approx 125 pedal rev/min with 30sec rest between each, work heart rate 180 - 190 beats/min.

That's basically the core of it. Earlier in the year there's a few less( 3X2min, 6x1min and 8x30sec) ramping upto to a few more... Pedal rpm is variable too, dictated more by what events that I have coming up that I really want to do well in.

Given that I haven't done the above in about 10 years but will be starting on it in 3 weeks then it should be a laugh. I don't think I'm fit enough but I'm not going to wait forever! I still recall back in '96 regurgitating carrots at the end of one of the sessions... :)
 

rmur17

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postal_bag said:
I did a new workout on Sunday: 3x40' on, 5' off

I averaged 91.9%, 92.6%, and 92.3% FTP

Maybe this is SST overkill. I think I'm addicted.
ouch 2 full hrs averaging 0.92FTP - must be 180-200 TSS including warmup and cooldown?

It's only overkill if you're not improving power and/or duration. If either or both is improving, keep on truckin' :p
 

postal_bag

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rmur17 said:
ouch 2 full hrs averaging 0.92FTP - must be 180-200 TSS including warmup and cooldown?

It's only overkill if you're not improving power and/or duration. If either or both is improving, keep on truckin' :p
Yep, 191 TSS. :)

Well, I was doing about the same power for my 3x30's, so I guess, it's all good.
 

Ade Merckx

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postal_bag said:
I did a new workout on Sunday: 3x40' on, 5' off

I averaged 91.9%, 92.6%, and 92.3% FTP

Maybe this is SST overkill. I think I'm addicted.
Impressive stuff dude. Longer than an hours total trainer time is new terrotory for me I did manage a 60 @ 93%, 5min recov, then 30 @ 93% which was pretty tough going. My problem is on the KK I get lazy and rarely climb out of the saddle so I get a real sore butt after 45mins:eek: