Old Campy single pivots

[Suzy Jackson]

Hi all,

Just a comment on my old brakes.

I've been riding my old roadie this last week, on account of doing a course in the city, and having
nowhere secure to keep my bike.

It's a lot of fun. 7 speed 13-21 cassette, downtube shifters, and good old trusty Campy Athena
single pivot brakes (circa 1987).

Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
never would have said they were great, but then I'd not have bagged them either. However now, after
getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with these brakes.
They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the bike, you have to apply an amazing amount of force
at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home, because I didn't yank hard
enough on the lever.

Anyways, that's my rant for the day.

Regards,

Suzy

PS: before you say it, no they're not binding or anything. They move fine, it's just that they
don't actually stop the bike

--
---
Suzy Jackson [email protected] http://www.suzyj.net

 

[nferyn]

Hi,

I've got campy single pivots of the same era (1980something, pre delta record) and although you have to apply more force to stop, I like the way they very smoothly slow down your bike. Hardly any chance to lock up your wheel. I recently got a new bike with dual pivot campy centaur brakes: excellent stopping power, but much more difficult to 'tune' your braking. A compromise between the two systems would be ideal.

Greetz,


Niek

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:52:39 -0500, Suzy Jackson wrote:

> It's a lot of fun. 7 speed 13-21 cassette, downtube shifters, and good old trusty Campy Athena
> single pivot brakes (circa 1987).
>
> Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
> never would have said they were great, but then I'd not have bagged them either. However now,
> after getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with these
> brakes. They're deadly!

I just retired my old single-pivots (these were the originals, from the late '60s, and no, they
aren't for sale). I had been using them on my fixed gear, but found a pair of Chorus dual-pivots at
a swap meet and now these await my great restoration project.

But they aren't to blame here. The issue is lever pull -vs- pad travel, pure and simple. The
dual-pivots require more cable-pull for a given amount of pad motion. So, a given cable pull exerts
more pressure on the pad, and so the same finger pressure exerts more pad pressure.

But the same thing could be arranged by changing the levers as changing the calipers. More
mechanical advantage, stronger braking.

The downside of this "improvement" is that you have to adjust the brakes so that the pads are a lot
closer to the rim than in the old days. We could sometimes ride home with a broken spoke, and maybe
not even notice it, since we had between 1/8" and 1/4" of pad clearance. No longer. Now you need
true rims. Good thing spokes are better now.

For me, the big advantage of dual pivots is that they don't get out-of-kilter and drag a pad on the
rim. The old Campy sidepulls were better in avoiding this than what came before, but still would
rotate on you. Dual pivots adjust with an allen key, and stay there. They're prettier, too.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but _`\(,_ | what canst thou say?
-- George Fox. (_)/ (_) |

 

[Mark Hickey]

"Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
>never would have said they were great, but then I'd not have bagged them either. However now, after
>getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with these brakes.
>They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the bike, you have to apply an amazing amount of force
>at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home, because I didn't yank hard
>enough on the lever.

Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are pretty
pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!

There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
- so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Pete Biggs]

nferyn wrote:
> I've got campy single pivots of the same era (1980something, pre delta record) and although you
> have to apply more force to stop, I like the way they very smoothly slow down your bike. Hardly
> any chance to lock up your wheel. I recently got a new bike with dual pivot campy centaur brakes:
> excellent stopping power, but much more difficult to 'tune' your braking. A compromise between the
> two systems would be ideal.

There is an ideal compromise, and I use it. It's very simple: DP front, SP rear. The posh option is
Campagnolo Chorus/Record "Differential" brakes, cheapo option is to use existing front DP brake and
find an old used SP caliper.

~PB

 

[Scic]

>From: nferyn

> ...Hardly any chance to lock up...
I recently got a new bike with dual pivot campy centaur brakes: excellent stopping power, but much
more difficult to 'tune'...

Just increase the distance from pad to rim incrementally until you get the feel you're looking for.
Your choice of pad will also affect braking pressure.

Sig Chicago

 

[Tom Paterson]

>From: Mark Hickey

>"Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
>>never would have said they were great, but then I'd not have bagged them either. However now,
>>after getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with these
>>brakes. They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the bike, you have to apply an amazing amount
>>of force at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home, because I didn't
>>yank hard enough on the lever.

(M.H. replied):

>Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are pretty
>pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!

Maybe something like this, "orbital" holders:

http://[email protected]/harris/brakeshoes.html#threaded

"Non-abusive toe-in capability", black pads are available too, I believe. --Tom Paterson

 

[Jay Beattie]

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 03 Feb 2003 23:52:39 -0500, Suzy Jackson wrote:
>
> > It's a lot of fun. 7 speed 13-21 cassette, downtube shifters, and
good
> > old trusty Campy Athena single pivot brakes (circa 1987).
> >
> > Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading
a
> > couple of years ago, and never would have said they were great, but
then
> > I'd not have bagged them either. However now, after getting used to
my
> > nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm amazed how I survived so long with
these
> > brakes. They're deadly!
>
> I just retired my old single-pivots (these were the originals, from
the
> late '60s, and no, they aren't for sale). I had been using them on my fixed gear, but found a pair
> of Chorus dual-pivots at a swap meet and
now
> these await my great restoration project.
>
> But they aren't to blame here. The issue is lever pull -vs- pad
travel,
> pure and simple. The dual-pivots require more cable-pull for a given amount of pad motion. So, a
> given cable pull exerts more pressure on
the
> pad, and so the same finger pressure exerts more pad pressure.
>
> But the same thing could be arranged by changing the levers as
changing
> the calipers. More mechanical advantage, stronger braking.
>
> The downside of this "improvement" is that you have to adjust the
brakes
> so that the pads are a lot closer to the rim than in the old days. We could sometimes ride home
> with a broken spoke, and maybe not even
notice
> it, since we had between 1/8" and 1/4" of pad clearance. No longer.
Now
> you need true rims. Good thing spokes are better now.
>
> For me, the big advantage of dual pivots is that they don't get out-of-kilter and drag a pad on
> the rim. The old Campy sidepulls were better in avoiding this than what came before, but still
> would rotate
on
> you. Dual pivots adjust with an allen key, and stay there. They're prettier, too.

Do you really need to use the allen key? I just rotate the calliper by hand, and it seems to stay
put. I like the dual pivots better than my Campy NRs, but then again, whenever I use the NRs, I use
them with STI levers so its not quite an apples-to-apples comparison. Even if I went back to DT
shifting, I would never resurrect my NR levers because I cannot afford to buy the wildly expensive
gum hoods. Even when the NRs were "current production," the gum hoods were expensive -- and they
didn't last that long. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Jay Beattie wrote:
> Do you really need to use the allen key? I just rotate the calliper by hand, and it seems to
> stay put.

Depends how tight the bolt is and how close you like the pads. The allen key (centering adjuster) is
needed for _fine_ adjustment if the main bolt is properly tight.

I used to just rotate by hand but found the caliper eventually worked loose because I wasn't doing
up the bolt enough.

~PB

 

[A Muzi]

"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
> >never would have said they were great, but then
I'd
> >not have bagged them either. However now, after getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm
> >amazed how I survived so long with these brakes. They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the
> >bike, you have to apply
an
> >amazing amount of force at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home,
> >because I didn't yank hard enough on the lever.
>
> Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are
> pretty pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!
>
> There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
> - so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
> extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.

They originals can be expensive but you'll get better braking with the Kool Stop copies. These
blocks are black, fit perfectly and have raised letters with the "Kool Stop" name. A quick pass with
a razor blade and you'd have a hard time telling them from the originals - until you apply the
brakes and notice they stop better! Four for $20, or about the same as any other KS pad.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

[Bill Putnam]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago... I'm
> >amazed how I survived so long with these brakes. They're deadly! In order to get them to slow the
> >bike, you have to apply an amazing amount of force at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian
> >today on the way home, because I didn't yank hard enough on the lever.
>
> Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are
> pretty pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!
>
> There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
> - so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
> extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

As Mark says, improvements can be made with new brake pads, the Kool Stop salmon colored pads often
being noted as the best and least likely to get aluminum bits embeded which grind up your rims in
short order. Also, Sheldon Brown has a nice web page on improvements in braking via high quality
slick cables and proper installation http://www.sheldonbrown.org/cables.html , and he discusses how
the aero style brake levers can give more responsive braking from the top of the hoods. More
discussion on the characteristics of different types of brakes can be found at
http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.15.html

The mechanical advantage of dual pivot vs. single pivot will make a difference in the amount of
lever pressure needed, all things being equal, but to say that a single pivot Campy brake is
"deadly" leads me to question how well your brakes are set up or if you have especially weak hands.
I've never had any problems braking up to the limit imposed by going over the handlebars. This is
with 22 year old Campy Record brakes, at times with a loaded touring bike weighing 40 kg (90 lbs,
tent and cooking kit included). This includes mountain descents in the French and Swiss Alps in the
rain, though not in as steep terrain as Jobst does on some of his tours.

Bill Putnam

 

[Jon Isaacs]

>There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
>- so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
> extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.

According to Jobst its about 40%, definitely noticeable. Of course if you're a flatlander then well,
probably doesn't matter.

Personally I like Dual Pivot brakes, though I go for the original Shimano brakes, never tried the
Campy clones. I have some bikes with Single Pivot, include some similar to what Suzy describes, yeah
they work but I don't trust em on a steep downhill in the rain.

I think the real issue is that single pivot brakes were designed at a time when people rode in the
drops much of the time. Now people seem to ride on the hoods and dual pivots are better for braking
from the hoods because your hand leverage is worse than from the drops.

jon isaacs

 

[Paul Southworth]

In article <[email protected]>, Bill Putnam
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>As Mark says, improvements can be made with new brake pads, the Kool Stop salmon colored pads often
>being noted as the best and least likely to get aluminum bits embeded which grind up your rims in
>short order.

I think Salmon pads are great but I suspect black pads would be more likely to deliver the brake
feel that the original poster was looking for as they are softer. (That and adding some slop in
the cable.)

I suspect the original pads are adjusted "too well" (too tightly) and the pad material has hardened.

--Paul

 

[Bfd]

"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
> > "Suzy Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Now I rode with these brakes for close to ten years before upgrading a couple of years ago, and
> > >never would have said they were great, but then
> I'd
> > >not have bagged them either. However now, after getting used to my nice Chorus dual pivots, I'm
> > >amazed how I survived so long with these brakes. They're deadly! In order to get them to slow
> > >the bike, you have to apply
> an
> > >amazing amount of force at the lever. I nearly mowed down a pedestrian today on the way home,
> > >because I didn't yank hard enough on the lever.
> >
> > Check out the brake pads. They're hard as a rock. Replace them with nice new pads (which are
> > pretty pricey, BTW), and you'll be amazed at how wonderful those stinky Athena brakes become!
> >
> > There IS a difference in mechanical advantage with a dual pivot though
> > - so it will always take a bit more pull to stop with the single pivot brakes... but I like the
> > extra pad to rim clearance they give me, and don't really need to extra umph anyway.
>
>
> They originals can be expensive but you'll get better braking with the Kool Stop copies. These
> blocks are black, fit perfectly and have raised letters with the "Kool Stop" name. A quick pass
> with a razor blade and you'd have a hard time telling them from the originals - until you apply
> the brakes and notice they stop better! Four for $20, or about the same as any other KS pad.

Similarly others here have stated that the "better" replacement pad for CAmpy single pivot brakes
are the Kool Stop Salmon colored Continental pads, like the ones here:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#continental

 

[Patrick]

> They originals can be expensive but you'll get better braking with the Kool Stop copies. These
> blocks are black, fit perfectly and have raised letters with the "Kool Stop" name. A quick pass
> with a razor blade and you'd have a hard time telling them from the originals - until you apply
> the brakes and notice they stop better! Four for $20, or about the same as any other KS pad.

I can attest to that advice; I just put on a set of koolstops on my Record differential brakes last
week, and they're night & day compared with the OEM pads. Great stopping power, and great control.

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:12:21 -0500, Jay Beattie wrote:

>> you. Dual pivots adjust with an allen key, and stay there. They're prettier, too.
>
> Do you really need to use the allen key? I just rotate the calliper by hand, and it seems to
> stay put.

Like someone else said, the allen key is just for fine adjustment. I get the caliper on tight, close
to the right adjustment, then use the allen key to fine-tune.

> I like the dual pivots better than my Campy NRs, but then again, whenever I use the NRs, I use
> them with STI levers so its not quite an apples-to-apples comparison.

They would be better with the old Campy levers.

Even if I went
> back to DT shifting, I would never resurrect my NR levers because I cannot afford to buy the
> wildly expensive gum hoods. Even when the NRs were "current production," the gum hoods were
> expensive -- and they didn't last that long.

Yeah, I remember being shocked at the price when I had to replace them once. The new hoods sure last
a lot longer.

You can get generic gum hoods, but usually they are very expensive, or already rotten.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored _`\(,_ | by little
statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo (_)/ (_) | Emerson

 

[Matt O'Toole]

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:12:21 -0500, Jay Beattie wrote:

> Even if I went
> > back to DT shifting, I would never resurrect my NR
levers because I
> > cannot afford to buy the wildly expensive gum hoods.
Even when the NRs
> > were "current production," the gum hoods were
expensive -- and they
> > didn't last that long.
>
> Yeah, I remember being shocked at the price when I had to
replace them
> once. The new hoods sure last a lot longer.
>
> You can get generic gum hoods, but usually they are very
expensive, or
> already rotten.

I believe there are reproductions around, but they're still made of gum rubber. I can't understand
why someone doesn't just make these in urethane, which is cheaper to make in small volumes, and
lasts practically forever. I guess the retro-geeks want the "real" thing, and everyone else just
buys new brake sets.

Matt O.

 

[Mark Hickey]

"David L. Johnson" <David L. Johnson <[email protected]>> wrote:

>Dual pivots adjust with an allen key, and stay there. They're prettier, too.

I dunno about "prettier"... I think my monoplanar Campy calipers on my road bike are a LOT sexier
than the DP brakes I have on my time trial bike. More importantly, the are lighter, and look more
aero. Ahhh, bliss.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[A Muzi]

> > On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 11:12:21 -0500, Jay Beattie wrote: Even if I went
> > > back to DT shifting, I would never resurrect my NR
> levers because I
> > > cannot afford to buy the wildly expensive gum hoods.
> Even when the NRs
> > > were "current production," the gum hoods were
> expensive -- and they
> > > didn't last that long.

> "David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Yeah, I remember being shocked at the price when I had to
> replace them
> > once. The new hoods sure last a lot longer.
> >
> > You can get generic gum hoods, but usually they are very
> expensive, or
> > already rotten.

"Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:EWY%[email protected]...
> I believe there are reproductions around, but they're still made of gum rubber. I can't understand
> why someone doesn't just make these in urethane, which is cheaper to make in small volumes, and
> lasts practically forever. I guess the retro-geeks want the "real" thing, and everyone else just
> buys new brake sets.

The synthetic ones are made by Ame among others. Ten bucks vs. about $70 for n.o.s. originals.
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971