Old derailleur and chainrings, new chain and cassette



I

Ian Jackson

Guest
I recently had to replace my rear wheel, and switched from the old
6-cog freewheel to a freehub (Deore XT) plus an 8-speed cassette
(Shimano HG50). The old chain was very worn - it had started to slip
- so I replaced that too (Sram PC850).

While doing the swap-out, I dug substantial quantities of black gunge
(a solidly caked mixture of oil and mud, I think) from the rear
derailleur. After I'd done this I noticed that the sprocket nearest
the cassette was very wobbly - perhaps 5mm of side to side motion
available at the edge of the sproket compared to the derailleur cage.
This didn't seem likely to be very good but the old wheel was well and
truly gone and I couldn't be bothered to reassemble everything while I
asked some kind of expert, so I thought I'd carry on see how bad the
effects were.

In fact, it turns out that I have no difficulty shifting; I only had
to adjust the endstops for the wider gearing range. After I got the
hang of the new setup it seems quite adequate. I have non-indexed
shifters and am very lazy, so I'm used to riding bikes with a poorer
state of maintenance than perhaps most people here :). Ie, I'm used
to compensating for poor cables and shoddy old equipment, which I'm
sure helps.

Also, I haven't done anything about the front chainring set. It's
still the old setup which came with the bike (some kind of Shimano).
I don't experience any slippage and it shifts just fine. (Although
posting reminds me that I need to adjust the inner endstop.)

My main question is: have I done anything hideously wrong ? As I say
I'm lazy but if I wonder I should swap out the derailleur and/or the
chainring anyway to avoid having the chain wear excessively quickly.

I used to lubricate the old chain with chainsaw oil as it was cheap,
but experience with recent wet weather suggests it is quite quickly
washed away (about one short journey in heavy rain seems to be enough
to make it want re-oiling) which doesn't fit my lazy nature very well
:), so I've pretty much decided to go back to `three in one' or the
equivalent. As advised by various sources I didn't add any oil when
fitting the new parts.

How soon should I think about oiling the chain ? I assume I shouldn't
ever try to lubricate the new hub. (Of course, dismantling it
periodically to repack with grease is out of the question.)

The bike is a tourer (Raleigh Randonneur) which I use for commuting
and other mainly urban trips, sometimes with substantial luggage
and/or a trailer.

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <[email protected]>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
 
On 2008-03-25, Ian Jackson <[email protected]> wrote:
> I recently had to replace my rear wheel, and switched from the old
> 6-cog freewheel to a freehub (Deore XT) plus an 8-speed cassette
> (Shimano HG50). The old chain was very worn - it had started to slip
> - so I replaced that too (Sram PC850).
>
> While doing the swap-out, I dug substantial quantities of black gunge
> (a solidly caked mixture of oil and mud, I think) from the rear
> derailleur. After I'd done this I noticed that the sprocket nearest
> the cassette was very wobbly - perhaps 5mm of side to side motion
> available at the edge of the sproket compared to the derailleur cage.

Assuming you mean the little plastic sprocket (called a "jockey wheel")
in the derailleur cage that's fairly normal and doesn't matter.

Check the bolt through it isn't loose, but it usually isn't.

They aren't on proper bearings (unless you have some vintage Campag
stuff there) just bushings and especially the cheap stuff wobbles a bit.
I suspect it actually works better that way-- things can be a little bit
out of line without it mattering so much.

[...]
> Also, I haven't done anything about the front chainring set. It's
> still the old setup which came with the bike (some kind of Shimano).
> I don't experience any slippage and it shifts just fine. (Although
> posting reminds me that I need to adjust the inner endstop.)
>
> My main question is: have I done anything hideously wrong ?

It doesn't sound like it. You often don't need to change the front
chainrings.

> As I say I'm lazy but if I wonder I should swap out the derailleur
> and/or the chainring anyway to avoid having the chain wear excessively
> quickly.

See if it does. The derailleur wheels won't wear the chain (and actually
the teeth on those can wear down to nothing with practically no
ill-effects). The chainring probably could accelerate chain wear in
theory.

> I used to lubricate the old chain with chainsaw oil as it was cheap,
> but experience with recent wet weather suggests it is quite quickly
> washed away (about one short journey in heavy rain seems to be enough
> to make it want re-oiling) which doesn't fit my lazy nature very well
>:), so I've pretty much decided to go back to `three in one' or the
> equivalent. As advised by various sources I didn't add any oil when
> fitting the new parts.
>
> How soon should I think about oiling the chain ?

When it's either starting to go a bit rusty or is covered in gunge.
Which happens first depends on weather conditions and your generosity
with the oil. Then clean it and oil it again.

> I assume I shouldn't ever try to lubricate the new hub. (Of course,
> dismantling it periodically to repack with grease is out of the
> question.)

Correct, don't put any oil on the hub-- if it does anything it might
interfere with the sealing and let the grease out or dreaded foreign
bodies in.

As for repacking I can't see much point. If it's a reasonable quality
hub and you don't ride in severe rain or wash the bike with a hose the
grease that's in there stays in there and all you achieve by repacking
it is risking getting it dirty.

Sometimes you can tell it's dried out because it starts to make a bit of
noise. In that case repack, but it may be too late anyway.
 
Ian Jackson wrote:

> I recently had to replace my rear wheel, and switched from the old
> 6-cog freewheel to a freehub (Deore XT) plus an 8-speed cassette
> (Shimano HG50). The old chain was very worn - it had started to slip
> - so I replaced that too (Sram PC850).
>
> While doing the swap-out, I dug substantial quantities of black gunge
> (a solidly caked mixture of oil and mud, I think) from the rear
> derailleur. After I'd done this I noticed that the sprocket nearest
> the cassette was very wobbly - perhaps 5mm of side to side motion
> available at the edge of the sproket compared to the derailleur cage.

Lateral float on the upper jockey wheel is an intended design feature of all
modern derailleurs. It helps indexed systems align properly.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Q: Whats a webmaster?
A: Like a spider, but nowhere near as intelligent.
 
Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-03-25, Ian Jackson <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I assume I shouldn't ever try to lubricate the new hub.

Shouldn't be necessary if it really is new and a good brand. I have bought
new-old-stock hubs though that just contained a small amount of dry grease.

You may want to adjust the cones anyway as they can be too tight to start
with.
See http://sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html

>> (Of course,
>> dismantling it periodically to repack with grease is

....not...

>> out of the question.)
>
> Correct, don't put any oil on the hub-- if it does anything it might
> interfere with the sealing and let the grease out or dreaded foreign
> bodies in.
>
> As for repacking I can't see much point. If it's a reasonable quality
> hub and you don't ride in severe rain or wash the bike with a hose the
> grease that's in there stays in there and all you achieve by repacking
> it is risking getting it dirty.
>
> Sometimes you can tell it's dried out because it starts to make a bit
> of noise. In that case repack, but it may be too late anyway.

Don't leave it until it could be too late then - because too late could mean
a lot of expense and inconvenience. Every so often it makes sense to clean
and repack as a preventative measure. Use your own judgement as to how
often - depending on model of hub and amount and type of use.

~PB
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Pete Biggs <[email protected]> wrote:
>You may want to adjust the cones anyway as they can be too tight to start
>with.
>See http://sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html

The wheel rotates fine, so I think I don't need to do that.

>Ben C wrote:
>>> (Of course,
>>> dismantling it periodically to repack with grease is
>
>...not...
>
>>> out of the question.)

Well, you can speak for yourself. Personally I'm far too lazy for
that. (Or if I'm allowed to put a nicer spin on it, I'm far too
busy.)

>> Sometimes you can tell it's dried out because it starts to make a bit
>> of noise. In that case repack, but it may be too late anyway.
>
>Don't leave it until it could be too late then - because too late could mean
>a lot of expense and inconvenience. Every so often it makes sense to clean
>and repack as a preventative measure. Use your own judgement as to how
>often - depending on model of hub and amount and type of use.

Are you suggesting that I should take it to the LBS to have it
disassembled and repacked ? It's certainly not a job I'm going to do
myself as I'll only do it a few times a decade - nowhere near enough
to get at all good at it, and paying someone else to do it is a far
better tradeoff.

My own inclination, which you seem to refer to, would be to ignore it
until there is some kind of symptom of a problem.

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <[email protected]>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>Assuming you mean the little plastic sprocket (called a "jockey wheel")
>in the derailleur cage that's fairly normal and doesn't matter.

Yes, that thing. Good.

>Check the bolt through it isn't loose, but it usually isn't.

I didn't check it but it seemed very unlikely that anything in the
vicinity was loose that shouldn't be :).

>On 2008-03-25, Ian Jackson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> My main question is: have I done anything hideously wrong ?
>
>It doesn't sound like it. You often don't need to change the front
>chainrings.

Oh, good.

>> How soon should I think about oiling the chain ?
>
>When it's either starting to go a bit rusty or is covered in gunge.
>Which happens first depends on weather conditions and your generosity
>with the oil. Then clean it and oil it again.

I've never cleaned a chain yet and I don't intend to start now :).

(Although I did clean my rear brake blocks with IPA when I changed the
wheel and the resulting massive performance improvement can't have
been entirely due to the new rim, so I'll probably clean my front
blocks and rim too when I get a moment. Also, I have the most
excellent brake squeal now.)

IME the main thing which causes degradation is using it while not
properly lubricated, by which I mean that it makes a different kind of
noise. I've had quite adequate life out of chains just by oiling them
when they start to sound like they need it. The problem with the
chainsaw oil was that it tended to wash off. (Also, it's very thick
at most temperatures and strands of it tend to get on the rim.)

Since it's several new kinds of equipment now I'm not quite familiar
with the normal kinds of transmission noise yet (the cassette seems to
sound rather different to the way the freewheel used to), but I
suppose I'll just wait to see if I can hear it when it starts to run
out of lube.

>As for repacking I can't see much point. If it's a reasonable quality
>hub and you don't ride in severe rain or wash the bike with a hose the
>grease that's in there stays in there and all you achieve by repacking
>it is risking getting it dirty.

I live in Cambridge where it rains quite rarely. I suppose I end up
riding in heavy rain for less than an hour a year on average.

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <[email protected]>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
 
Ian Jackson wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Pete Biggs <[email protected]> wrote:

>> You may want to adjust the cones anyway as they can be too tight to
>> start with.
>> See http://sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html
>
> The wheel rotates fine, so I think I don't need to do that.

That's not a good enough test because a new wheel can rotate fine even when
the cones are tighter than ideal. Bearings last much longer when the cones
are no tighter than necessary.

Fortunately there is an easy test with quick-release types. There should be
some play in the bearings when the wheel is not fitted to the bike. Read
the article for more on that.

Note that none of this applies to cartridge bearings, only the traditional
"cup and cone" type bearings - which Shimano still use for most of their
models, for example.

/snip
> Are you suggesting that I should take it to the LBS to have it
> disassembled and repacked ? It's certainly not a job I'm going to do
> myself as I'll only do it a few times a decade - nowhere near enough
> to get at all good at it, and paying someone else to do it is a far
> better tradeoff.

You can get good at it in just one session with the help of Sheldon's
instructions - but yes I would suggest taking it to a good LBS if you don't
want to DIY. Of course a lot of cyclists can't or don't like to do these
kind of jobs, and that's what bike shops are for.

> My own inclination, which you seem to refer to, would be to ignore it
> until there is some kind of symptom of a problem.

By then the cups (hub bearing surfaces) could be ruined. It only takes a
few dimples for them to be ruined, and you don't notice this damage
happening. These can be so expensive or difficult to replace that it means
a new hub - which can it turn mean a new wheel if it's not worth rebuilding
the wheel. Wheels are expensive.

~PB
 
In article <O2o*[email protected]>, Ian Jackson
[email protected] says...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Pete Biggs <[email protected]> wrote:
> >You may want to adjust the cones anyway as they can be too tight to start
> >with.
> >See http://sheldonbrown.com/cone-adjustment.html
>
> The wheel rotates fine, so I think I don't need to do that.
>
That's no indication that the bearings aren't overtightened. With a
quick-release hub you really need to check bearing tension with the
wheel out of the frame _and the QR skewer tightened_ (pack it out with
washers so it bears on the locknuts). Or adjust the cones until there's
a bit of lateral movement at the rim with the wheel fitted in the frame,
then tighten them slightly until the play disappears.
 

>
> I've never cleaned a chain yet and I don't intend to start now :).
>
> (Although I did clean my rear brake blocks with IPA when I changed the
> wheel and the resulting massive performance improvement can't have
> been entirely due to the new rim, so I'll probably clean my front
> blocks and rim too when I get a moment. Also, I have the most
> excellent brake squeal now.)

IPA? India Pale Ale? Was this deliberate or just spillage?
I don't clean chains either. Theory being that it would pick up new
grit which would be a harsher grinding paste than the old grit if left
in place. I oil everything a lot and limit bike cleaning to the
occasional dislodging of caked on black gunge.

cheers
Jacob
 
On 2008-03-26, Ian Jackson <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
[...]
>>When it's either starting to go a bit rusty or is covered in gunge.
>>Which happens first depends on weather conditions and your generosity
>>with the oil. Then clean it and oil it again.
>
> I've never cleaned a chain yet and I don't intend to start now :).
>
> (Although I did clean my rear brake blocks with IPA when I changed the
> wheel and the resulting massive performance improvement can't have
> been entirely due to the new rim, so I'll probably clean my front
> blocks and rim too when I get a moment. Also, I have the most
> excellent brake squeal now.)

I haven't heard of using beer to clean things before, but I suppose the
alcohol in it could have a degreasing effect.

> IME the main thing which causes degradation is using it while not
> properly lubricated, by which I mean that it makes a different kind of
> noise. I've had quite adequate life out of chains just by oiling them
> when they start to sound like they need it. The problem with the
> chainsaw oil was that it tended to wash off. (Also, it's very thick
> at most temperatures and strands of it tend to get on the rim.)

It's difficult to know what really does cause chain wear. I never used
to clean them, just oiled the ****. My most recent chain I cleaned
fairly often (took it off and shook it around in a bottle of paraffin).
Wear rate was exactly the same-- 1/16" per 11" per 7000km. But the clean
chain feeling is worth 2kph on my top speed so I keep on cleaning.
 
Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-03-26, Ian Jackson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,

>> (Although I did clean my rear brake blocks with IPA when I changed
>> the wheel and the resulting massive performance improvement can't
>> have been entirely due to the new rim, so I'll probably clean my
>> front blocks and rim too when I get a moment. Also, I have the most
>> excellent brake squeal now.)
>
> I haven't heard of using beer to clean things before, but I suppose
> the alcohol in it could have a degreasing effect.

Beer contains some sugar. Dried sugar solution on the rim massively
increases braking power. It doesn't last long, though, and the grabbyness
is dangerous as well as noisy. This is one reason not to put fizzy beer or
Coke in your water bottle with a leaky top. The other is that cycling with
a stomach full of gas isn't pleasant.

~PB
 
Quoting Ian Jackson <[email protected]>:
>My own inclination, which you seem to refer to, would be to ignore it
>until there is some kind of symptom of a problem.

And then replace it with a hub with cartridge bearings. :)
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Oil is for sissies
Today is First Potmos, April.
 
Ian Jackson wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>When it's either starting to go a bit rusty or is covered in gunge.
>>Which happens first depends on weather conditions and your generosity
>>with the oil. Then clean it and oil it again.
>
> I've never cleaned a chain yet and I don't intend to start now :).

They wear out phenomenally quicker if you don't keep them clean. Since I got
religious about cleaning chains I'm getting more than twice - possibly more
than four times - the life out of them.

> (Although I did clean my rear brake blocks with IPA

Is India Pale Ale really the right stuff?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
.::;===r==\
/ /___||___\____
//==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
normanwisdom <[email protected]> wrote:
>> (Although I did clean my rear brake blocks with IPA
>> ... resulting massive performance improvement ...)
>
>IPA? India Pale Ale? Was this deliberate or just spillage?

This newsgroup is utterly hilarious :). No, not beer.

Isopropanol, also known as isopropyl alcohol, often abbreviated to
IPA. It's a very effective cleaning agent, particularly compared to
its modest health and environmental risks. It's also very cheap :).

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_(disambiguation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

--
Ian Jackson personal email: <[email protected]>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
 
In article <[email protected]>, Simon Brooke wrote:
>Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>> I recently had to replace my rear wheel, and switched from the old
>> 6-cog freewheel to a freehub (Deore XT) plus an 8-speed cassette
[...]
>> derailleur. After I'd done this I noticed that the sprocket nearest
>> the cassette was very wobbly - perhaps 5mm of side to side motion
>
>Lateral float on the upper jockey wheel is an intended design feature of all
>modern derailleurs. It helps indexed systems align properly.

5mm sounds excessive though - that's more than the distance between
Shimano 8-speed sprockets.
 
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